KafirGirl

We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

Putting you to work. Open post!

with 73 comments

I got an email from an ex-Muslim named Wissam, who just came out to his Muslim girlfriend and got dumped as a result.  After giving it some thought, however, she decided to give him a shot…at deconverting her.  And he must really care about her, because he’s taking a crack at it.  He needs some help in figuring out some solid arguments to use when he talks to her.

Lets help the guy out, eh?  I may be a total bastard, but deep down, I’m a sucker for happy endings.

This is your chance to get it all out there.  What arguments helped deconvert you?  What is the most glaringly obvious thing in the Quran that could be used to plant the seed of doubt?

You can read Wissam’s original post here.  Comment away!

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Written by kafirgirl

October 7, 2008 at 11:09 am

Posted in Quran, religion, Resources

Tagged with ,

73 Responses

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  1. [019:026] “So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, ‘I have vowed a fast to (God) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'”

    Sher Ali:

    [019:026] `So, eat and drink and cool thine eye. And if thou seest any man, say, `I have vowed a fast to the Gracious God; I will, therefore, not speak this day to any human being.’

    Shakir:

    [019:026] So eat and drink and refresh the eye. Then if you see any mortal, say: Surely I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent God, so I shall not speak to any man today.

    Pickthall:

    [019:026] So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say: Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal.

    Sale:

    [019:026] And eat, and drink, and calm thy mind. Moreover if thou see any man, and he question thee, say, verily I have vowed a fast unto the merciful; wherefore I will by no means speak to a man this day.

    Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan:

    [019:026] “So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allah) so I shall not speak to any human being this day.”

    Palmer:

    [019:026] so eat, and drink, and cheer thine eye; and if thou shouldst see any mortal say, “Verily, I have vowed to the Merciful One a fast, and I will not speak today with a human being.”‘

    Arberry:

    [019:026] Eat therefore, and drink, and be comforted; and if thou shouldst see any mortal, say, “I have vowed to the All-merciful a fast, and today I will not speak to any man.

    SUPER-MORONIC INSTRUCTIONS ABOVE.ASKING ANYONE TO SAY”I have vowed to the All-merciful a fast, and today I will not speak to any man.”
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/cgi-bin/quran/quran_search1.cgi?search_text=19%3A26&B1=Search

    anand

    October 7, 2008 at 12:36 pm

  2. Actually, the premise of religion that God is such a sucker to punish those who do not believe in him is pathetic. That made me most averse to religion. Also he has not given any clear proofs (as the claim goes) and yet he punishes those who disbelieve.
    This is well, because I started as a disbeliever. I do not know what might have caused a muslim to lose faith. Waiting to read those.

    Another Kafir

    October 7, 2008 at 12:54 pm

  3. For me, the principle argument against Religion is: If God is all-loving, why does he absolutely insist that you believe in him/her/it to be allowed to come up and play in his tree house at the end of the day?

    Ben

    October 7, 2008 at 1:02 pm

  4. In general, a simple way to highlight lack of reasoning in religious viewpoint is simple:

    I can tell you *exactly* what will make me (an atheist) believe in god (i.e. if you can *prove* that he exists, he listens to prayer and grants wishes).

    Can you tell me *exactly* what will make you lose faith in God?

    Usually the religious will say that NOTHING will make me lose faith. In other words, reason or logic does not have enough of a gravitational tug to shift their position. They believe because they believe. End of Story! So, while god-bashing arguments are easy, they are unlikely to resonate with those who’re high on the kool-aid.

    But in the case of KG’s request (on behalf of Wissam), I’m going to post a (probably) dissenting view:

    Why should Wissam need to “de-convert” his girl?

    Presumably they love each other for who they are (as persons) and not whom they privately revere or worship (if anyone). This means that a person is lovable irrespective of religious affiliations.

    So if these two people accept each other for who they are then religion will automatically fade into the background and over time she will probably realize that she’s been putting her stock in certain doctrines that have no bearing on “Quality of Person”.

    Irrespective of religious faith, her life-experience should indicate to her that Wissam is worthy of her affections or not. If she cannot see it that way then unfortunately her mind is already made up. You cannot un-make her mind any more than you can make KafirBoy’s grandmom drop her pro-life position.

    Rahul

    October 7, 2008 at 1:22 pm

  5. Argument from divine hiddenness

    1. If God exists, God:
    1. wants all humans to believe God exists before they die;
    2. can bring about a situation in which all humans believe God exists before they die;
    3. does not want anything that would conflict with and be at least as important as its desire for all humans to believe God exists before they die; and
    4. always acts in accordance with what it most wants.
    2. If God exists, all humans would believe so before they die (from 1).
    3. But not all humans believe God exists before they die.
    4. Therefore, God does not exist (from 2 and 3).

    GAD

    October 7, 2008 at 2:08 pm

  6. Action speaks louder than words.

    Two weeks might suffice. In the first W. should act like the person he is, without the religious brouhaha and claptrap.

    The second week he should act like an obedient muslim would according to the Qu’ran and hadith (if not in complete violation of applicable laws). To the letter, perhaps with a citation with some hellspeak and allahspeak thrown in as a bonus.

    And then his girlfriend can decide which version she prefers.

    DutchA

    October 7, 2008 at 2:14 pm

  7. Tell her that if she is indeed a true Muslim then she must support and uphold that Wissam be put to death for his apostasy. She can read this for confirmation that “death by execution” is indeed the punishment in Islam for apostasy. Other sources will confirm it too….Muslim sources.

    If her conscience cannot stomach this, then she CANNOT be wishy-washy and must herself reject a faith that proscribes this. If she cannot see the either/or here, Wissam, she aint worth it.

    sista

    October 7, 2008 at 2:32 pm

  8. Sadly, i can relate to Wassim. Im still with my god fearing muslim boyfriend but i know that my apostate status is something that eats away at him. We never talk about my lack of faith, its just kind of an understanding. I can’t rationalize religion out of him. People don’t believe because religion explains the world better than science does, they have an emotional attachment to god. I hope that Wassim and his girlfriend stay together and that she lets go of her religion. If they choose to stay together and she remains muslim, it will not be easy on either of them.

    randomness

    October 7, 2008 at 8:17 pm

  9. @sista: That means she should also be killed for apostasy. Not a good approach.

    On a different note, the Muslim (OK, an Ahmadi, not a Real Muslim) I’ve known best was so into the Kool-Aid (brainwashing) that not even showing her the contradictions, violence, etc. in the Quran could make her accept anything except the Islam is Peace and Love for All mantras. I won’t go into more details, but I wish Wissam well, for it may not be possible.

    Michael

    October 7, 2008 at 8:20 pm

  10. GAD said:
    “4. Therefore, God does not exist (from 2 and 3).”

    Or, possibly, god fails to act in order to bring about what it most wants and is thus an abusive jerk who sets people up for failure and doesn’t deserve anyone’s enabling, I mean, faith.

    The Perky Skeptic

    October 7, 2008 at 10:31 pm

  11. Sadly, you cannot reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into in the first place. Pointing out contradictions in holy books doesn’t win over people who have already drunk the Kool-Aid.

    My suggestion is to spend the two weeks in a Socratic method discussion where you try and tease out (without criticism) exactly what belief / unbelief means for each of you and how that affects your relationship to each other and your peers.

    My own experience is that you gradually come to realise that the whole “god” thing is like a trail of smoke from an incense stick, it looks nice and makes you feel good but there is no substance to it. The more you try to gather it and define it, the less substance there is to it.

    But always remember that openness, kindness and compassion are essential to maintaining your relationship with this girl.

    Mike

    October 7, 2008 at 11:40 pm

  12. This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard, trying to convert someone from their religion. You can’t change anyone, so just dumper her. Who wants to stay with one person anyway! The only dignity in life is to live alone & fuck anyone you want. Relationships are for people who have no game, and marriage is a combo or slavery & prostitution.

    Sorry to break up the love lovefest, but y’all sound like theists to relationships, when you should be atheists. They’re just another societal prison to emotionally abuse and defeat people.

    What

    October 8, 2008 at 2:14 am

  13. Women’s rights & gay rights plant the first seeds.

    Reading the truth about scientific “miracles” in the quran strengthen it.

    Reading Dawkin’s God Delusion is the final nail in the coffin.

    T

    October 8, 2008 at 4:28 am

  14. Wissam, what you might do is start teasing out the way Islamic sources teach us to view and treat women. For example, the hadith that says women are deficient in religion and intelligence. The religion one can easily be explained by the exceptions for fasting and praying, but the intelligence part of it? There’s no way to explain that one away. A lot of Muslim women just simply block it out. I know, I used to be one.

    Or, the hadith that illustrates that the Prophet hit Aisha, even though we are taught that he never lifted a hand to any woman. This one really shook me to my core, and I had to reevaluate this man who I still believed was genuinely good, if misled, after I left Islam.

    Dig into 4:34 with her, where it mentions the word ‘dharaba’. Does she really believe she deserves to be beaten, even lightly, for instigating nushuz? Nushuz means something different not only to different jurists, but the power that Islam gives to individuals as far as interpretations means that each man can interpret it as he will. Instead of ‘understanding’ it to mean serious, serious actions like infidelity, he will say it means that she talked back – or that she spoke at all. This the truth about Islam. Ask her how she would feel if you ever ‘tapped her lightly’ with a silk scarf or a toothbrush or even with your open hand?

    If she is into reading, have her read Khaled Abou El Fadl’s work titled ‘Speaking in the Name of God.’ It directly addresses gender related issues. For many women, it is these issues that help them open their eyes to Islam. But if she has doubts about God and the Quran & Sunnah themselves, take a more generic, scientific approach.

    In the end, Wissam, have hope. For some of us murtads, our lovers, our spouses, and our families love us more than they love this idiotic, sadistic religion, and some of us are willing to put us higher on the priority list. The fact that she’s with you as a girlfriend should give you hope, as it indicates she is leaning quite liberal.

    Happy to Be Gone

    October 8, 2008 at 6:53 am

  15. Kafirgirl, it’s very noble of you to want to help, but you know what I’d say? Let her use her own goddam brain to figure the shit out. :-)

    I’m a sucker for those who can put two and two together by themselves. “Deconverting” is as bad as converting. Perhaps, rather than deconverting, the least we should do is to engender in ourselves a continued attempt at understanding the world around us. I like it when people, e.g., Ayaan Hirsi Ali; Taslima Nasrin, etc, volitionally, without prompting, arrive at the realisation that such a thing is inconceivable, and that the believer expressly accepts it as such.

    Muhamad

    October 8, 2008 at 7:33 am

  16. Ben, I think the problem is that in Islam, God is definitely not all-loving. He’s a jealous, vengeful, asshole of a God…and he knows it!

    Rahul, I think that works for some religions, but Islam is “special.” A girl can’t even be with a Christian or a Jew, a person of the book, and apostates are a few notches below that on the hell scale. It’s a pretty complicated situation.

    I do agree with everyone who says you can’t “make” someone change their mind. It seems, though, that she’s at least open to the idea. If some relative of mine says, “If you can convince me there is no god, I will leave my religion,” fuck yeah, I’d take em up on it.

    sista, oooooh, she’d be one callous lady if she shrugged that one off.

    randomness, I did the same thing. I dated a Muslim guy who got more and more religious as I got more and more godless. He was constantly trying to bring me back to the religion, and I didn’t want to discuss religion with him at all. Needless to say, it didn’t work out. And it definitely isn’t easy.

    Michael, I know what you mean. Some people don’t want to not believe. No amount of logic will make them see the stupidity in that.

    Mike,

    My own experience is that you gradually come to realise that the whole “god” thing is like a trail of smoke from an incense stick, it looks nice and makes you feel good but there is no substance to it. The more you try to gather it and define it, the less substance there is to it.

    Oh snap, that was lovely. Well said.

    What, that sounds exactly like something a religious person would say an atheist would do. “You just want to sin and fuck everyone — that’s why you don’t believe in God.”

    T, I’m with you. The scientific miracles are easy to debunk and hard to overlook.

    Happy to be Gone, great suggestions. I’ll have to look up that Khaled Abou El Fadi book you’re talking about. Never heard of it.

    Muhamad, I think it’s different for different people. Some people can do it on their own, and others ask for help. And I say if a person is asking for help in leaving the religion, throw them a line and pull them out. Just my opinion.

    kafirgirl

    October 8, 2008 at 8:19 am

  17. I think it is the issue of identity. Once you are able to derive your identity from other things in your life then you do not worry about leaving your religion. He should take her to atheist parties and show her atheist movies. We guys may not agree with each other but we have some things in common which can be a source for an idea. Don’t know if it might work… just thinking aloud.

    Another Kafir

    October 8, 2008 at 10:53 am

  18. I meant source for identity..

    Another Kafir

    October 8, 2008 at 10:56 am

  19. The Perky Skeptic:

    That would certainly break the argument, and the quran has so far stated many times that gods seals the hearts and minds of unbelievers. Yet, believes still rationalize this with an all-loving god.

    From the above, if you believe god is all-loving yet he sealed your boyfriends heart then your boyfriend must be evil. If god is not all-loving then you’ve got a whole lot more questions to ask “yourself”.

    GAD

    October 8, 2008 at 11:32 am

  20. Ah, I see you what you mean. Yes, by all means help if someone is asking for help. Is his girlfriend asking for help?

    Muhamad

    October 8, 2008 at 6:28 pm

  21. Yup, he was pretty surprised by it, too. She basically said, “If you can show me solid arguments and convince me, I’ll leave the religion.” Score!

    kafirgirl

    October 8, 2008 at 8:55 pm

  22. This Wissam thing, i mean, knowing Muslims like i do, it’s odd, really it is.
    So he is a apostate of Islam and she will only marry him if she becomes apostate also- which no man even if he isn’t Muslim would want.
    This isn’t how Muslims function.Normally, Wissam would be simply another hypocritical muslim man who does whatever he wants while using Islam to get what he wants also-in this case a Muslim wife from his own community who is compliant and co-operative.
    Intellectual or any other kind of honesty you ask? Where does that come into it. According to the values of our communities, Wissam can simply act act as a Muslim (whatever he believes is irrelevant)- with Islam serving his ends.
    How many Muslim men really believe? Here are the 5 pillars of Islam for Muslim men.
    1) You fuck 5 times a day
    2) You don’t drink
    3) You have harems of girlfriends
    4) You don’t eat pork
    5) You threaten to butcher anyone who expresses sexual interest in ure wife, sister or whoever while at the same time masochistically imagining it all the time. These homoerotic fantasises confuse u so much violence against women is the only way to put it right.

    Wissam, ure a man, use Islam to do what the fuck u want (like every other Muslim man).

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 9, 2008 at 5:49 am

  23. Kafir Girl,

    What u said a few posts up, the muslim man who wasn’t very religious at first then tried to ‘bring u back’, that’s exactly how our men operate! He was using Islam as a control mechanism cos it’s much more reliable to control ure body through ure mind and ure values than any other way, Islam invites u to sign up and POLICE ureself.
    Islam is a atrocity against women, period. We see Wissam as the ONE guy who just doesn’t seem to get it. U love her do u, great, so use Islam to control her then. Why is he not? Naieve, a convert, a true and principled apostate?
    Look, on the latter point there is no such thing as a ex muslim male apostate, why would there be, he is always going to be a certain way regarding women cos thats the culture he was brought up in. How many liberal UK born Pakistani girls got trapped like that, they thought they was marrying a ‘westernized’ liberal guy who smoked and drinked and found out to their cost it’s just the kind of man who combines the worst elements of male assholish behavior cloaked in Islam so the wife can’t object. U have to be Muslima i think to really understand that muslim male entitlement is so huge-even if a Muslim guy says he’s a apostate or whatever, that sense of entitlement is never going to fade away, in fact, it reinvents itself. Hence the lament, “When I first met him he was so outgoing and so liberal, but his religion changed him after marriage, i think it was his mother’s influence”.
    What a joke! Sorry if this seems a bit vague, i dunno exactly if non muslims can understand it, i am just telling this is how it is and this is why even if i was straight i wouldn’t date muslim men.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 9, 2008 at 6:01 am

  24. Uhhh Jasmine, are you saying there’s no such thing as an ex=Muslim man? Because I know a couple who’d totally disagree with you on that one.

    kafirgirl

    October 9, 2008 at 8:00 am

  25. Uhhh Jasmine, are you saying there’s no such thing as an ex=Muslim man? Because I know a couple who’d totally disagree with you on that one.

    kafirgirl

    October 9, 2008 at 8:02 am

  26. Basically, u can never take the sexism out of the Muslim man’s psyche, religion is immaterial, it’s a control device, Islam serves a utilitarian function- to control women, does this ex muslim treat women equally? Does he allow her to make her own choices, including, heaven forbid SEXUAL ones?
    No, of course not. Why? Cos he was brought up in a muslim society or in a muslim home and still and always will carry male chauvanism in his heart and soul. What he believes or doesn’t believe in spiritual terms means nothing within the context of a womans’ right to choose.
    As i told, it’s ironic, cos men from me own culture are more attractive to me than anyone else; but i won’t put meself at risk, unless he’s got no stake in a relationship with me, which would be the case if the relationship was for alterior motives on both sides- if u get me point on that.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 9, 2008 at 10:29 am

  27. Jasmine, while I agree that many men are complete bastards, I don’t think there’s any reason why a muslim man automatically has to be a bastard, especially if he’s an apostate. Also, it’s really not limited to just muslim men. I know a whole bunch of bastards of all nations and creeds.

    manigen

    October 9, 2008 at 10:51 am

  28. Mangen, all men are capable of bastardism, but western men don’t follow it as part of their religion-unless they’re Christians (which many are).
    Potentially, ex-muslim men are the worst as they don’t even have the tenderer elements within Islam to moderate their inevitable rages of jealousy.
    The reason Muslim men are more likely to act like bastards is cos they live in societies where that is perfectly acceptable and women got no voice, in other words- they can get away with it.
    How many men would rape if they could get away with it? One study suggests it’s 7 out of 10. The answer then is to empower women so that they can’t get away with it. Islamic countries have the least empowered women- therefore it follows Muslim men act despotically. You can remove Islam from a muslim man-but u can’t remove the mysogony and sense of male supremacist entitlement he will always have.
    Me personally, i have no dealings with apostate men from Pakistan or anywhere else; to me, they are only slightly more honest in how they oppress. Liberal Muslim men simply add sleaze to the picture, as so apostate muslim men. Neither are capable of respecting a woman as anything more than a grossly unequal sex object.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 9, 2008 at 11:11 am

  29. If a partner or husband is a ‘ex’ muslim man and is prepared to tolerate me kissing another guy in front of his eyes (if i want), and going further- like fucking him as me husband watched (if i want), aborting his child (if i want), and if he is willing to accept that there are vast tracts of me life where he is always going to be shut out, then yes, i would admit that he was no longer Muslim.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 9, 2008 at 11:15 am

  30. Damn Jasmine, your hard core! I’ll tell you a secret, most men want to be in control of women and most men would like to control more then one. This is not religion it is our animal nature, we are wired like loins not whales. Religion doesn’t create these desires in men it gives rules for acting on them within a society. In this respect Islam reflects the desires of men more closely then Christianity. Can a muslim man leave Islam and suppress those desires, sure, why not, most men in the world do it every day.

    GAD

    October 9, 2008 at 11:50 am

  31. I’m not, and never have been a muslim, but there are certain activities on that list that I would at least want to be consulted about before a partner carried them out.

    I’m just guessing, so correct me if I’m wrong, but I think part of the problem here is to do with broader culture outside the religion. I know a few muslims who would never behave in the way you’ve described. But they’ve spent their entire lives in european cities, so I’m guessing the culture they were raised in is very different to the one in pakistan.

    Of course, based upon what we’ve all read of the quran, you could argue that these European metrosexual guys aren’t really muslim at all; they’re not following the example of Mo after all. But that doesn’t seem to be your position, given what you’ve said about Wissam.

    Could you help me out here Jasmine? Do you honestly think it is inevitable that any man professing to be muslim will be a bastard?

    manigen

    October 9, 2008 at 12:00 pm

  32. (the list I mention at the top of my last post is the one jasmine gave – I should have refreshed to see if anyone else had posted before I hit submit)

    manigen

    October 9, 2008 at 12:02 pm

  33. “Do you honestly think it is inevitable that any man professing to be muslim will be a bastard?”
    Manigen

    That’s like asking a girl who got bitten by packs of stray dogs, year after year, if she thinks dogs bite.
    Dogs bite- full stop.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 9, 2008 at 1:32 pm

  34. Gad, do you know the origins of the oppression of women?
    Try reading the book, “The Creation of Patriarchy,” by Dr.Gerder Lerner. Blame it on culture- rather than religion, hell, even after all you have read here by Kafir Girl, even now, you STILL want to blame it on culture rather than on Islam!
    I give up.
    Islam is responsible because it hyper sexualizes the male biological drive by restricting- through sexual repression, the opportunity for men to meet women. Thusly, men become obsessive, super jealous and have developed- due to Islam, a strict social control system based on the total domination and suppression of women.
    A man may no longer be Muslim, fine, but you don’t just walk away from that kind of pyhsycological condition formed due to a normal sex drive turned into a obsessive and controlling pathology due to the artifically restricted mating opportunities Islam affords.
    We see here the Muslim man as both victimizer and victim, either way, what he actually professes to believe has been long since eclipsed by his neurotic sexual pathology.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 9, 2008 at 1:46 pm

  35. Okay, I’m going to be cautious here and just say that I disagree. To use your own analogy, only some dogs bite, and assuming that they all do will only limit what you can do in your life.

    Oh, and, disclaimer: all that I’ve said is coming from a man born and raised in London, England, so many of my observations about other cultures need to be viewed in that light. London is an extraordinary melting pot of different cultures, but they’re all inevitably londonised.

    manigen

    October 9, 2008 at 1:52 pm

  36. Manigen, listen, i’m from East London and the issue here is that there are more infinetly opportunities for Muslim men to have sex than in Pakistan. That in itself undoes some of Islam’s damage- but only in the short term. While Pakistani women are less likely to be groped and followed in London by our men, in the long term, Islamic values (i.e control and domination) reemerge after marriage cos marriagable Muslim girls are the focus of fierce competition- hence the need to control our lives. Even in London, despite the huge number of sexual possibilities for Muslim men, Pakistani girls like meself only suffer temporary respite cos after marriage we’re back to square one.
    Do you seriusly think i could ever tell even the most liberal muslim husband in the UK- a born and bred Pakistani UK based male that i am unsatisified with his sexual performance, unhappy physically, feel emotionally neglected or want a better-deeper orgasm?
    How would u rate me chances if i told like that?
    Er, sorry, i think you’d be finding me sitting in the casualty ward of the Royal London Hospital in Whitechapel, nursing broken bones, knocked black and blue.
    I got no doubt in me mind that i face a future of domestic violence as a woman forced to get married when i don’t want. I am trying to tell everyone the real story, but YOU WON’T LISTEN.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 9, 2008 at 2:03 pm

  37. Jasmine, slow down. I didn’t blame anything on culture, I said it was in mans “nature”. Culture and religion are reflections of our “nature” not the other way round.

    GAD

    October 9, 2008 at 2:12 pm

  38. And i told how Islam through grossly restricting mating opportunities accentuates man’s primal instinct to the extent that it changes not just how men view women (as sex objects), and how they interact with them (dominant versus subservient), but how Islam essentially becomes irrelevant in a spiritual sense given that the oppression of women in Islamic countries is a social and political, rather than a ethical phenomena.
    Imagine women living in a open, safe and loving society where their freedoms are unrestricted, like in Norway or in California- men view women in a relaxed way (yes there are deviants of course)- but overall as there are so many opportunities for sex, there is less need to control and intimidate women into remaining available only to one man.
    Now imagine a small group of women living in a open prison. What will be the situation for those few women who are seen in the prison yard or even in the showers? U know the situation and should a man end up with a woman as his cell mate- he will keep her locked up in her bunk on pain of death so all the other male prisoners can’t get her.
    Islam creates prison atmosphere type societies through the oppression of women which leads to the sexual repression of everyone. What a man believes or doesn’t believe is secondary to whether he believes in a womans’ right to choose, which he won’t, cos it’s not in his interest to do so.
    Another, don’t ever think there’s a line, if i want sex with multiple male partners, even if i FORCE him to watch me having sex with one after the other, he has never got a right to hurt me. Never.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 9, 2008 at 2:36 pm

  39. see, it’s only a matter of time before Christian and Muslim guys start to consider me a slag for what i am telling, and Islam uses ‘slut shaming’ as a first means of control when prayer has failed, with beatings and murder on the other end of the scale.
    As soon as a man starts to feel god has given him a right to decide, to judge, to direct, control and chart a woman’s destiny, a woman is already in big big trouble.
    Now how many guys here are just writing me off thinking like this, “She’s just a slag.”
    Men will always use their religions to justify their actions.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 9, 2008 at 2:42 pm

  40. Jasmine, I’m sorry. I made some assumptions in my post that weren’t justified. In particular, from what you’ve said some really nasty shit has happened to you, and what do I know about that? Not a thing.

    Still, please don’t shout. Closing your post with an all-caps “you won’t listen” doesn’t help. I am listening, and I accept that you know a whole load of stuff I don’t about muslim men. And muslim women, come to that.

    I have a question. Can you find me a religion which doesn’t have a tradition of hideously repressing women? Especially one which originates in the middle east? After all, men were behaving like this before islam came along, and maybe they’ll still be behaving this in the distant future.

    Erk. That’s a bloody depressing thought.

    manigen

    October 9, 2008 at 3:39 pm

  41. Hi, i am not telling it’s just Islam, and one very important thing persons should know, cos i am terrified racists will get hold of me stuff and use it against me community- it was the Aryans who done this, they came to Europe and brought with them patriarchal religion which we see from Zeus to Hitler, so to answer ure question, no, there is no post Aryan religion that doesn’t do this, you got to back all the way back at least 3,500 years to the cult of the comsic mother goddess to find any kind of acceptable religion that doesn’t oppress women.
    U should read ‘The Feminine Face of God in Auschwitz,’ by Melissa Rapheal which grapples with the whole question of a male, cruel god whose origins are Aryan.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 9, 2008 at 3:50 pm

  42. I walked away from Islam after a long process of looking at other religions: the paganism of Judaism seemed blatantly obvious to me, as did incarnation in Christianity. Eventually I accepted the same with Islam, especially when I could find no evidence for god’s existence. We’ve had, what, 5000 years of religious culture to prove god beyond a doubt? And yet we haven’t.

    Rascaduanok

    October 9, 2008 at 3:58 pm

  43. only time i don’t feel this pain is when i am fighting on the internet, i fight anyone i can- jihadis, nazis, anyone, but there’s no one left to fight.
    but fighting is the only time i feel any peace somehow, or zonked out on me meds.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 9, 2008 at 5:16 pm

  44. Jasmine,

    You make some good points about sexual repression becoming a self-propagating phenomenon. And since Islam “sanctifies” such repression, it becomes doubly dangerous.

    But I think that there is a large chasm of “generalization” between your observations (or your life-experience) and the broad conclusions that:

    a. All Muslim men are domineering control-freaks.
    b. Misogyny is an all-pervasive trait among ALL Muslim men and cannot be exorcised.
    c. By extension Wissam cannot possibly be sincere in his desire to love and live with his girl without the pretense of faith.

    Just as it is senseless (if not dishonest) for the devout to claim that religious doctrine is the sole source of morality and that atheists are bound to be shallow hedonists with zero moral compass, it is an equally defunct argument that all religious folks (in this case Muslims) are woman-bashing and woman-hating male-supremacists.

    Yes a lot of people “absorb” these values from their environment and then find a suitable justification for it in their favorite holy-text. But to claim that anyone exposed to such an environment is irredeemably contaminated and beyond rationalization is far too much of a generalization.

    Judging by your earlier posts, you are likely to get exasperated feel that I don’t “get it” and that you have all this compelling personal experiences….

    I get it! Believe me I do!

    I understand that you feel trapped in a sewer where everything stinks. But that does not mean the world stinks. You just happen to be in an unfortunate spot from where it seems that way. While, we can sympathize with you… please don’t presume to know Wassim’s situation or his motivations or his sincerity.

    I don’t mean to belittle your views. I just think that over-stating a case is just as disingenuous as “polishing a turd” (a term I picked from KG).

    Take Care…. I hope you find your way our of your bitterness.

    Rahul

    October 9, 2008 at 6:33 pm

  45. Fuck. That’s a bad place to be stuck Jasmine.

    manigen

    October 9, 2008 at 6:48 pm

  46. Jasmine, I emailed you about this already, but just in case it does go through — I deleted some of your comments that I (and a few concerned emailers) think you might later regret having posted. Safety is a huge concern, and even if there’s a small chance that someone might track you or your girlfriend down, I’d rather just take down the post. I hope you’re doing OK. Email me if you need to talk anything out.

    kafirgirl

    October 9, 2008 at 7:35 pm

  47. Kafir Girl, thanks for ure kindness- as always. I can’t exactly remember what i posted cos i get confused maybe, so it’s no problem for me u deleted, no way, i am just telling thanks so much. About me safety and stuff and by extension me friend, i think we’re ok as such, cos i don’t tell that much and no one knows where i am bloging from even. But ure right,
    of course ure right.

    I will just go back to what Rahul said, ure like trying to (pointlessly) convince me again that dogs don’t bite, sorry, i think they do, cos i been bitten and the only solution i got is:
    a) live in a world without dogs
    b) run or avoid all dogs
    c) arm meself against dogs
    d) never forget dogs bite if they get the chance
    e) remember dogs are cunning and smell weakness-doubt-mental confusion
    f) remember dogs are intelligent and can go doey eyed and tell like this, “not all dogs bite and only silly personages think like that, come on, stroke me.”

    Now (f) is the most dangerous kind of dog and funny how all dogs support each other. U think i any believe for dogs? That’s like telling i am stupid or something, do i seem so? Maybe. But not so that dogs can fool me, cos i been bitten- so i know.
    In fact, i live in a world only of women, this is all i know actually, men is another side and i got no interest, i always been strictly segregated from men from age 7, i got no insights really and i learned about them just from the internet u can say, that and in the street, but nothing more than that, which is more than enough- cos i don’t like, and don’t need to know about them also.
    U can even say if all men just vanished from the world it’s not going to affect me even, me personally, no, i don’t object to pardah, pardah is good in that sense and pardah is all i know overall and at least i feel comfortable being segregated from men (even though it’s totally against me political beliefs, i am just telling that’s how bad men are thta we even need pardah).

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 10, 2008 at 3:08 am

  48. Jasmine: You’ve been bitten. That prooves some dogs bite. It does not proove that all dogs will bite. It does not entitle you to claim that all dogs bite.

    I’m not trying to change your mind about any of what you’ve said, exactly, but I do think you need to be more careful about what you say about other people.

    You don’t know Wissam, so your comments about him weren’t justified. I think that’s what Gad and Rahul were reacting to, and it’s certainly what made me post my first response.

    manigen

    October 10, 2008 at 9:45 am

  49. Manigen, do u know what’s funny about what u are telling is that it’s TOTALLY at odds with Islam on teachings to us girls, namely, men are wolves, they got to be kept well at bay and this is why we got Pardah. So perhaps this is a rare instance that i actually agree with me Islamic upbringing cos there must be a reason why say me older brother has never allowed me younger brother to see his wife’s face, why, cos men are just what i am telling, dogs THAT BITE.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 10, 2008 at 10:07 am

  50. Another, ure trying to tell me what is what, huh, maybe i am in a country where i can’t even leave me villa for fear of getting raped. I think i got it totally right, actually.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 10, 2008 at 10:09 am

  51. But there are countries where that isn’t the case.

    manigen

    October 10, 2008 at 10:15 am

  52. A muslim country, where?

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 10, 2008 at 10:17 am

  53. there isn’t one, the more religious a country is-the more repressed it is and the more dangerous it is for women to step out of their homes, it’s obvious; but not if ure male and benefitting from the system.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 10, 2008 at 10:20 am

  54. see, no answers, I WIN COS I ALWAYS WIN.
    i never met a male of the species who could outsmart me yet, ha.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 10, 2008 at 10:21 am

  55. I think that if you’re going to claim that my lack of answer proves you right, then you need to wait more than one minute for the reply.

    I wasn’t aware that we were only discussing muslim countries now. When did that happen? I was under the impression that we were discussing men in general or, at a push, muslim men in general. A great many muslim men live in countries where they can’t get away with pulling that sort of shit. If you want an example, then I’ll pull one out of the air: Sweden.

    However, I absolutely agree with your statement: “the more religious a country is-the more repressed it is and the more dangerous it is for women to step out of their homes”. That’s true.

    It still doesn’t justify what you said about Wissam, though.

    manigen

    October 10, 2008 at 10:34 am

  56. Jasmine, drop it.

    kafirgirl

    October 10, 2008 at 10:43 am

  57. Manigen, i actually gave examples of nice places to live like California and Norway, so i never said at all what u seem to think.
    I suggest u forget the fact that i’m female and concetrate just on what i have to say rather than just disagreeing when otherwise u would agree.
    Now go and read me stuff- PROPERLY, and then come and tell me u agree. This will also reduce the chances of KG flipping out in the future also.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 10, 2008 at 10:47 am

  58. I flipped out?

    kafirgirl

    October 10, 2008 at 1:32 pm

  59. er, not like exactly flipped out KG, like sort of u know maybe slightly rankled and stuff

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 10, 2008 at 1:42 pm

  60. This thread is going nowhere. Generates all this heat but no light!

    Glad its Friday…. time to move on.

    Rahul

    October 10, 2008 at 3:24 pm

  61. Agreed, Rahul. I’m a little disappointed. I asked for something really specific and it just went all apeshit. Sorry, Wissam!

    kafirgirl

    October 10, 2008 at 4:08 pm

  62. Here’s the problem with this blog as i see it. Everyone here fails to understand what the Qu’ran really is, accept me, of course, someone who is not only hafiza, fluent in Arabi, but also a person who has mastered revolutionary-progressive thinking, not to mention having lived in a Sharia state through childhood.
    You treat it as a book that needs to be examined-good, but it’s more than simply a ‘book’ in need of theological
    exposition. Is the Qu’ran of only religious significance?
    Obviously no.
    And yet, you editorially view it as such. Thusly, there is no feminist interpretation allowed or encouraged, no political understand of the Qu’ran, no gay interpretation of the Qu’ran, no social interpretation either except what we get as a ad hoc spin off from the theological stuff which is repetitive therefore.
    So what in fact do you end up with?
    Male commentators doing what males love to do best- quoting scriptures chapter and verse which is why posts have begun to sound increasingly alike, when in fact, the diversity of understanding that a feminist-political and social perspective on the Qu’ran is not only the key to understanding the Qu’ran on a holistic level allowing us to approach it’s anthropolgical and political significance, but also the antidote to this moribund, male dominated theological debate which itself has begun to sound increasingly patriarchal.
    Is there a reason that by and large only males comment on this blog? This simply isn’t the case on other blogs and i have to wonder why that is and why there is this reactionary, non diverse, ultimately very restrictive approach employed here.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 10, 2008 at 6:49 pm

  63. Jasmine, all religion is bullshit and men try and dominate women because they desire it and they can. For you to claim that only a woman can see that is bullshit! Women, children and men are horribly tortured and killed everyday in this world that have nothing to do with Islam, so get off the only muslim women know suffering bullshit! Yes islam is fucked up but it doesn’t own the exclusive rights to being fuck up!!

    OK, back to my Scifi Friday night.

    GAD

    October 10, 2008 at 8:53 pm

  64. Jasmine, all religion is bullshit and men try and dominate women because they desire it and they can. For you to claim that only a woman can see that is bullshit! Women, children and men are horribly tortured and killed everyday in this world that have nothing to do with Islam, so get off the only muslim women know suffering bullshit! Yes islam is fucked up but it doesn’t own the exclusive rights to being fuck up!!

    OK, back to my Scifi Friday night.

    GAD

    October 10, 2008 at 8:54 pm

  65. Wow Jasmine, what’s gotten into you? The whole purpose of this site is to read this book and write about what I think. And plenty of girls comment here and email me. If you have a problem with the way I do things, feel free to not comment.

    kafirgirl

    October 10, 2008 at 10:32 pm

  66. Those who are inclined to leave Islam, need only to look at it honestly. A little bit of courage would help.

    There are many examples of self serving nature of Quran for Mohammed. My couple of favorite examples are

    33:53
    111:1-5


    I find them absolutely funny. Tragic but funny!

    33:53 is where Mohammed through Allah tells his house guests to leave and not stay around and bullshit after dinner. Allah says Mohammed is annoyed and he is shy to tell you! LOL!

    111 – is where Allah tells Mohammed’s uncle who interrupted him in one of his meeting when Mohammed was trying to tell people about Islam’s principles. Mohammed was hurt. Allah then tells his Uncle he will fry in hell and for good measure Allah tells the wife of the uncle is a fire wood carrier! apparently that is the kind of insult Allah likes.

    I’d recommend just discussing the verses that serve Mohammed and Mohammed only. Discuss the exceptions that Mohammed has from Allah. That should be good for a laugh or two!

    Murtad

    October 11, 2008 at 1:39 am

  67. NO, I love love love love THIS BLOG, i never told bad, no way, that’s not what i was telling KG, i was just telling it’s not a feminist type thing, but i never meant to speak bad or offend also, no way, it’s not me style, so i hope ure not angry and stuff (cos i done ntohing wrong also).

    Jasmine

    October 11, 2008 at 6:44 am

  68. nothing’s got into me, i’m fine thanks, fine in all ways. Done nothing wrong also.
    Like ure blog also too.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 11, 2008 at 9:08 am

  69. Just wanted to be comment 69 cuase I’m a man, baby. :)

    GAD

    October 11, 2008 at 12:23 pm

  70. If the people involved are fairly educated and can be swayed by a god scientific argument, I recommend a blogger who goes by “atheist mohammed”,

    http://atheistmohammed.blogspot.com/

    An ex-muslim whose study of genetics led him to doubt the veracity of Islam.

    ds

    October 12, 2008 at 6:08 pm

  71. Should have read “good scientific argument”, grr.

    ds

    October 12, 2008 at 6:09 pm

  72. “men are wolves, they got to be kept well at bay and this is why we got Pardah. So perhaps this is a rare instance that i actually agree with me Islamic upbringing cos there must be a reason why say me older brother has never allowed me younger brother to see his wife’s face, why, cos men are just what i am telling, dogs THAT BITE.”

    I just now got to this thread, and as a member of the male gender, this is quite frankly, insulting to the core. I’m simply appalled.

    The situation is lightyears away from this situation in my country, Finland. There just was a big story in the papers that someone was raped, and it was such a big story because it happes VERY RARELY, even in the capital where I live.

    As for helping the poor guy, have him read “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins! It’s a cool, concerted, scientific and logical book that shows why God almost certainly does not exist. Works like a charm.

    Hannu

    October 19, 2008 at 6:36 am

  73. I’ll admit, at a certain point, I stopped reading some of the comments. I was getting a little agitated by what was going on. Man. Sorry everyone. It got out of control fast.

    kafirgirl

    October 19, 2008 at 10:44 am


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