KafirGirl

We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

Saturday morning ranty post (Nissa edition).

with 69 comments

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Yup.  Saturdays are bitchy rant time.  Only this time, it’s not me doing the ranting.

If you’ve been following along in the comments sections of the past few posts, you’ve probably seen the novel-length comments left by a Muslim named Nissa.  She* went through and dive-bombed a bunch of posts with her Muslim take on things (ie “You’re wrong, God is right.”), but I published only 2 of the 9 comments she made.  Why?  Because she’s commenting on posts from 3 months ago.  Nobody’s tracked those comments in, well, 3 months.  What’s the point?

Either way, a few people got a kick out of the published comments and asked me to publish the mysterious “other” comments for their entertainment.  Happy to oblige!  I took screen grabs of her posts from my spam box.  The only changes I’ve made have been to black out the email & IP addresses.

Enjoy!

* I’m assuming Nissa is a female since I’ve never met a boy named Nissa in all my life.

Here’s what old Nissa had to say about the second post from chapter 2 (Women suck. And Jews suck, too.).  Remember that from way back in July?

This one is from chapter 2, part 3 (Oooh heaven is a place on earth.):

Chapter 2, part 4 (The cow in question, plus other Quranic silliness.):

I know I said I wasn’t ranting in this one, but I can’t keep my mouth shut.  She had to go and drag coffee into it.  First off — I am nobody’s servant.  So I have a hard time tracking that don’t-ask-questions line of thought.  And I dunno where Nissa orders her coffee, but here’s how it plays out at the places I go.

What would you like?
– Coffee.
Size?
– Large….extra large.  Wait, do you have anything bigger than extra large?  OK, fine, I’ll just take the large and come back in an hour for a refill.
You want milk in that?
– Sure.
Whole?  Skim? Cream?  Half & half?
– Surprise me!
How about sugar?
– Packet of Splenda, pleaseandthankyou.

There is no if-you-say-jump-I-say-how-high in my life.  There are conversations.  Exchanges.  So maybe I just don’t get it.

Also, if I had a secretary, I wouldn’t ask him to get coffee for me.  And I wouldn’t call him a secretary either.  That’s so 1950s.  Maybe this is just in the area I live, but if you asked an administrative assistant to fetch you a cup of coffee, he’d throw a piping hot cup of it all over your face. And if he didn’t, I’d do it for him.

And since we’re talking about bosses and coffee, I might as well share this.  On a few occasions when I’ve had to work superlate, my boss has gone out to get me coffee.  He even remembered the Splenda, because he’s awesome like that.  Boy, I really don’t know where I was going with any of that.  I just get a little defensive when coffee gets dragged into it.

Lets move on to the comment from chapter 4, part 1 (A scientific miracle in the Quran. Not.):

And chapter 4, part 2 (Mohammed’s Wager?):

(Note: on the occasions that I “dig” in the hadith to find details about things, I get angry emails from Muslims saying I’m obviously using the wrong hadith.  Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.)

From Swimmin’ in Women: Mohammed’s wives and concubines. (Part I):

(Note: suddenly the hadith aren’t so convenient, are they?  They describe Mohammed sucking on a kid’s tongue.  One more time?  Sucking.  Kid’s.  Tongue.  My grandpa gave me plenty of kisses, but, um, he kept his tongue out of it.  Just sayin’.)

And, even though Nissa does not wish to post any further:

Well, shit, now that I see it written in all caps, I believe it!

Yiish.  I tried my best to keep my comments to a minimum, but it’s hard.  It’s really hard.  Now it’s your turn. All of you who asked me to post the comments — have a field day.  Comment away!

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Written by kafirgirl

October 4, 2008 at 4:22 pm

Posted in Quran, Rant, religion

Tagged with ,

69 Responses

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  1. I’m with you. Everything was fine until coffee came up. Then I was all ‘It’s on now!’

    I’m really enjoying your posts on the Quran. Keep up the great work.

    Vaklam

    October 4, 2008 at 4:42 pm

  2. Wow, remind me not to work wherever Nissa does. Her boss must be a total hard-ass.

    But what I REALLY want to know is how long it would take the Flash to cross the Garden of Paradise. And whether Superman could do it even faster. Forget this Jibril guy.

    Nathan

    October 4, 2008 at 5:32 pm

  3. You know, I’d rather see an otherwise clever Muslim instead of Nissa with her inanities.

    The funniest bit for me is the all cap crap. Maybe Nissa’s trying to be helpful, just in case none of us are wearing our contacts. :-)

    Muhamad

    October 4, 2008 at 5:41 pm

  4. Nissa, you are so male orientated, sexist, mysogonyst and basically at war with ure gender. You take the inevitable frustration, sexual guilt and overall sense of repression u are feeling out on the truth that religion is a joke, on gay people and on anyone with the sense to stand up and point out to you, for your own benefit, that your belief system is based on only one thing- the lies of Muhammad, a sex obsessed power tripper who has conned generations of women into a belief system driven by male dominated interests.
    Nissa shows only one thing…. that only feminism can expose Islam for the mysogonyst heap of lies and trash it is.
    Men made all the rules u are following, not Allah, not the angels, not no one except some old desert patriarch who stood on the shoulders of several dozen other equally mysogonyst desert patriarchs and who did not even acknowledge that he was ripping off their work!
    It’s a joke and i feel dirty reading ure stuff Nissa cos i know in the real world what it leads to- hate, neuroses, ocd’s, homophobia.
    Er and yes, i love another girl, so i guess i am going to jehenem in ure book.
    Allah Hafiz, so much for rahma then.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 4, 2008 at 7:21 pm

  5. Ooops, sorry, i forgot, u sound remarkably like Bushra Ul Hussaini by the way, if so, this is me, apg -apostatepakistanigirl- and no way am i spending the next three months going round and round in circles with u.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 4, 2008 at 7:23 pm

  6. You can no longer stand it, what that Aisha was nine?
    Will you wake up?
    Under the Sharia 70 year old men are marrying 7 year old girls right now, I sent Kafir Girl the news posts on where and how it’s happening and it’s in a country where, so sorry, excuse me, they are rich, developed and no what Islam is all about.
    So how come ure so upset and can’t stand it, it’s a part of Islamic law, which is the law of Allah and therefore can not be opposed- which is why 7 year old girls are married off, totally legal under Sharia and widespread, so long as the girl agrees and signs her name in a shaking little hand, or if she can’t write, a simple x suffices. How hard is it to get the consent of a 7 year old (not that a child can really consent to anything), well, of course, if all else fails, u can terrorize with hell fire cos her only reason to live anyhow is to pretty much do what Nissa suggests.
    Nice, polite, hijabi Nissa, here’s the reality, the conclusion of all her ‘niceness’.
    1) Forced marriage
    2) Sexual repression against everyone
    3) Victimization of minorities
    4) Child marriage
    5) Women as slave stauts personages in gender apartheid societies

    Now for every 300 Nissas- there is always one Jasmine, or a Kafir Girl or a Apostate, or a Ayaan, or even a Irshad Manji, words out, Islam is the biggest atrcocity against women and Christianity is just the same. We’re fighting back, and ure “niceness” is never going to stamp us out also.
    Nissa, puppet of men, men who oppress and insult to her, men who mean she can’t even walk down the street if she’s in a Muslim country (the more religious-the worse the street abuse by the way), men who see her as nothing other than a sex object and judge her only by her compliance to the wishes of men (Islamic modesty), and her ability to produce children on demand (Islamic family values), and most of all her commitmment to her own slave status (submission to Allah).
    What are you submitting to?
    To men.
    Nothing more.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 4, 2008 at 7:37 pm

  7. CAPS! Seems to be the the rhetoric of typing.

    Defending a religious ideas seems to happen two ways: quoting the appropriate (circular reasoned) holy tome and shouting down the opposition/simply talking as if they haven’t said anything.

    It’s a great system- turn reason off, quote, ignore, job done, go to heaven, mmmm heaven…

    Oz

    October 4, 2008 at 8:43 pm

  8. You should totally have a beverage named after you– KafirCoffee!!!

    Also, I bet Batman could beat Jibril in a fight. ;)

    The Perky Skeptic

    October 4, 2008 at 11:50 pm

  9. ATTN Nissa: Nine-year-old girls are NOT adults, whether they bleed or not.

    The best example of “imagine yourself as a zomg powerful person” Nissa can come up with is “imagine that you get to ask people to get your coffee for you”? WTF?

    Chicken Girl

    October 5, 2008 at 12:37 am

  10. The YOU are to GOD = YOU are to GOD analogy doesn’t work because the subordinate relationship you have with your boss is one entered into willingly by both parties. Both parties can remove themselves from the relationship, without threat of hellfire. Also, there is oversight in case one parties acts *ahem* like a cruel, merciless, egoistical jerk. What is the religious equivalent of a Human Resources department.

    Oh, also no one ever needed to develop reams and reams of apologetic material in order to prove that my boss exists.

    Crystal

    October 5, 2008 at 12:38 am

  11. er, that should be “YOU are to GOD = YOU are to BOSS”

    Crystal

    October 5, 2008 at 12:38 am

  12. It must be the American in me, some channeling of that ol’ Yankee spirit or something (never mind that I’m a fourth generation Slavic import whose family wasn’t here in the 19th, let alone 18th, century): I hear that “you must obey because WE ARE HIS SERVANTS!” and I just cringe. God made me his servant? Fuck him. I’ll look for employment elsewhere. The Omnipresent Asshole is by definition closest to the coffee pot anyway, so he can get his own cup o’ Joe.

    Which, I think, I may do myself, now. Mmmmm, coffee.

    Gregory

    October 5, 2008 at 2:33 am

  13. I like the way Nissa is unable to answer how Sharia’ allows child marriage. Is that cos it’s based on the Sunnah?
    Hilarious, she’s more concerned about how fast Jibril can travel than stopping whats really going on.
    Nissa the only thing omnipresent in Islam isn’t Allah, he doesn’t exist sorry, it’s abuse, oppression, gender based violence and intimidation.
    And by the way, while u are wasting ure time peddling Islam, ure future husband is probably right now lurking in the souk waiting to grope some housewife or partying with prostitutes.
    It’s just a disgusting mess.

    jasminefrompakistan

    October 5, 2008 at 4:55 am

  14. There are so many, many things I would love to say in response to Nissa’s comments, but all I can manage is a very exasperated “AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!” I grew up trying to argue with people like her. In the end, I gave up and moved far, far away. Hats off to you, KG, for being able to tolerate comments like these. In your place, I’d have gone on a rampage by now. I love you more now than ever!

    Sarah

    October 5, 2008 at 6:47 am

  15. oy vey . . . when the fundies shake the two acorns in their cranium that are supposed to pass for neurons at you, it can get tedious. Whups, ad hominem, apologies. I’m currently reading Ibn Warraq’s informative “Why I Am Not A Muslim”, and can only shake my head at how anyone finds these “sacred” tomes from Abraham to be anything but feeble fables!

    Mike Lee

    October 5, 2008 at 8:57 am

  16. Vaklam, I tip my coffee cup at you, fellow junky. I’m glad you’re enjoying it so far. There’s a lonnnng way to go before this party’s over!

    Nathan, the Flash would kick Jibril’s ass. The part that got me was when Nissa says “Mind you, Jibril flew extremely fast, you can never imagine.” Hell yes, I can imagine. I have a very vivid imagination. I love sci-fi and superhero movies. I can totally imagine. The difference is that I know that everything I imagine is not real.

    Muhamed, even the clever ones have used the same stupid arguments. They just write them in a more coherent fashion. It’s sad.

    Jasmine, good to see you back =) And I genuinely hope Nissa comes back and reads your comments. Spot on.

    Oz, that’s exactly what I thought when I saw she’d resorted to all caps. I HAVE NO EVIDENCE SO I WILL JUST SHOUT AT YOU UNTIL YOU SHUT UP. What are we, 5?

    Perky Skeptic, I love it. KafirCoffee: sinfully delicious. Wah waaah waaaaaah! And I’m with you on Batman. With his high tech gadgets (did someone say science??), he could beat Jibril to a bloody pulp.

    Chicken Girl, I totally didn’t get the coffee thing. OK, fine, God is like your boss. But if your boss is an asshole, you can always quit and go find another job. Or, better yet, you can be self-employed. Plus, if you ask your boss a bunch of questions about his coffee, it’s not like he’d kick your teeth in. If he did — guess what? — he’d be held accountable! So, yeah, WTF?

    Crystal, exactly! You hit the nail on the head, bigtime.

    Gregory, 10 bucks says she typed out the word “slave” and then changed it to “servant” to soften it a little. And another 10 bucks says if you read WE ARE HIS SLAVES!, your eyeballs would explode.

    Sarah, tolerate? Nah. Mock? Definitely! I seriously wouldn’t even bother posting them except that I think it helps to see what’s out there. How these crazies think (not very well).

    Mike Lee, I still have to read that book. I haven’t been able to track down a copy at the bookstore I frequent. I’ll try another.

    kafirgirl

    October 5, 2008 at 10:49 am

  17. Some other dumb shit that’s bugging me:

    1. It really, really gets under my skin when she calls me “girl” in a condescending manner. It’s not girl as in “You go, girl,” and it isn’t even girl as in KafirGirl. It’s girl as in, “You silly little girl, how dare you question the Quran?” It’s not winning her any points with me. At all.

    2. I got my first period when I was 12. Was I old enough to be married? Hell-fucking-no. I was barely old enough read about sex without smirking and giggling. And I wasn’t immature for my age or something. I was exactly what a 12 year old kid is — a kid. Nissa’s saying, “If she’s old enough to bleed, she’s old enough to breed.”

    3. That may have been good enough 1400 years ago, but the problem, like Jasmine said, is that men are still doing it. And they’re using Mohammed as an example of why they can do it.

    4. “Anal sex, homo it is not good for you.” Didn’t we already have this same stupid argument with another Muslim? Brace yourself for this one, because it’ll come as quite a shock to the regular readers: I strongly believe that as long as it’s between consenting adults, it doesn’t matter how you do it. Take it up the nose, for all I care. Maybe I’m just especially sensitive because I know a lot of ‘Mos, erm, homosexuals, but comments like this just piss me off.

    5. Another thing about the boss analogy — dude, I can see my boss. I can talk to him. I know he exists. God? Nuffin.

    kafirgirl

    October 5, 2008 at 11:19 am

  18. Maybe Nissa just doesn’t have a very strong imagination, if she’s not able to imagine God OR really fast angels.

    Nathan

    October 5, 2008 at 11:53 am

  19. I’m going to put this out in public, rather than email so that Nissa and all the other Muslims reading the site can see it.

    If your god is as great as you say he is, then things like KGs blog won’t bother him. The truth is, though, that he’s not and neither is his prophet. That’s why Muslims get so hot and bothered by stuff like this, why churches get burned and people get killed every time anyone says ‘bugger’ about him.

    The facts are in the hadith, if you care to read them. Sucking on her tongue. Her difficulty breathing when it was time for her to go in and consummate. Or how about the saheeh hadith about him hitting her so hard in the chest she was in pain? Don’t attack Kafir Girl and the other brave ones like her – it’s your books that tell us these things.

    I’m an ex Muslim. And as my ‘name’ here says, I’m happy to be gone. People like Kafir Girl do the world a service, and that includes you Nissa, and all the other Muslims. Be a Muslim. Believe in one God and a prophet from Arabia. But be honest. And be human enough and faithful enough to let the rest of us just live. I’m not free to live openly. Thanks to the ‘religion of peace’. That is your religion, and no amount of platitudes and condescending comments for KG or anyone else is going to change it.

    Happy To Be Gone

    October 5, 2008 at 1:03 pm

  20. ps – I wanted to say thank you to Kafir Girl for this blog. It means a lot to me, as a former Muslim to hear from someone else. Plus, the LOLs are great.

    Happy To Be Gone

    October 5, 2008 at 1:28 pm

  21. Perky Skeptic and KF, as far as imaginary entities go, I’m betting on Batman too. He even beat Superman to a bloody pulp in that awsum graphic novel “The Dark Knight”, and by then he was like 55 years old already.

    I know, I’m a geek. :-)

    sex during menstruation is not good […] and anal sex, homo it is not good for you

    I’m glad she didn’t ask any real doctors who actually study these things, because they don’t seem to have found anything wrong with those practices.

    She’s probably better off trusting the word of a goat herder from 1400 years ago, whose great contributions to medicine including rules about wiping your ass with a certain number of stones and blowing your nose 3 times in the morning because the devil spends the nights there.

    I bet the doctors missed something, because as you know, people from the bronze age were really way, way smarter than we are now.

    Mauro

    October 5, 2008 at 4:21 pm

  22. Nissa, I hope you are still reading these comments and haven’t given up on trying to have a conversation with KafirGirl and other commenters here.

    Discussions on the topic of religion can be quite engaging and illuminating. Unfortunately, they can also be frustrating and repetitive. This can happen when either side of the debate brings arguments that have been heard hundreds of times before and are already considered defeated by the other side. KafirGirl actually does an exemplary job of avoiding that by doing her homework and summarizing the common muslim apologist arguments before addressing them.

    The question is have you done your homework? In some of your previous posts, you argued for the existence of god by giving examples of gaps in our scientific understanding of the world.

    Here’s your chance to do some research. Look up the “god of the gaps” argument. Can you briefly summarize, in your own words, why that argument is considered invalid? If you are not convinced that this argument is invalid, then give us your reasons why. Until then, your arguments from previous posts will not be taken seriously by KafirGirl or many of the commenters here, who’ve already dealt with similar claims before.

    ki

    October 5, 2008 at 5:10 pm

  23. first of all, Mauro, Nathan and PerkySkeptic are wrong. Green Lantern could fuck up Jibril. Why? Because he can manifest his imagination into reality, and make himself a god, one as real as the one Nissa worships.

    i am totally on board with chickengirl in that mentruation does not make you a woman, although in some cultures it is used as a figure of speech. In some latin american coutries/subcultures, when a girl first gets her period, it’s often referred to as her becoming a ‘young woman’. All in all it still hardly qualifies an age of marriage or consent, as i said, it’s just a figure of speech – nothing more. That example is just to illustrate a possible parallel, one that does not go onto a sexual tangent or subsequent marriage implication.

    Nissa will continue to post her jibberish, but we can’t really worry too much about correcting her, she’ll only pay attention to KG. i have a strong feeling she doesn’t read other people’s comments, otherwise she’d be correcting us. In all caps, of course.

    Go Hal Jordan [i feel like such a dweeb!]

    Priest

    October 5, 2008 at 8:29 pm

  24. Kafirgirl,

    I don’t know if you are genuinely being disingenuous or have simply misconstrued some aspects of Islam. My suspicion arises due to the fact that you (indirectly) linked to the book: “The Jewel of Medina” this book is written by a female majority of the book paints a very nice picture of Muhammed (SWS) in fact the book is based on the life of Aisha (Muhammed’s (SWS) young wife) although academically, and historically inaccurate. Aisha’s age which has been a contention for decades within the book is stated to be 14 at the time of consummation. Which is inaccurate depending on which Arab chroniclers’ accounts you base your “facts” on.

    I disagree with Nisaa (Muhammed (SWS)) did have a concubine (suspected to have two, although one of them lacks credible evidence) the one which is undisputed is Maria al Qibtiyya, Ibn Hisham’s notes on Ibn Ishaq’s (Arab chroniclers) Sira (Sirat Rasul Allah the earliest survived biographies of Muhammed (SWS) by Ibn Hisham) in his notes does not mention her as Muhammed’s (SWS) wife.

    Now coming back to you Kafirgirl if you are an atheist (as you claim) why would you base any of your reasoning on Islamic history on sources which carry internal and external contradictions? (Namely the hadith) why would you keep going on the lines of “Aisha was 9 years old when Mummahed had sex with her” (not saying you actually said it in those words) when you know there are contradictions and contentions to her age even in academic sources? Some chroniclers put Aisah’s from anywhere 12 to 21.

    The only men who are still having sex with young girls are illiterate men who think Muhammed (sws) had sex with a 9 year old, when the fact of the matter is 1.) no one really knows what the real age was and 2.) if Muhammed (sws) did really have sex with her. Muhammed (sws) married the ex wife of his adopted son, yet there is not even one historical account of him actually having sex with her, in fact he abstained from having sex with her.

    Now moving on to the issue of homosexuality and homosexual, sex in heaven, sometimes I wish atheists did not use false Christian missionary arguments, you lose integrity and credibility Here is a link completely debunking this: http://www.answering-christianity.com/islamic_paradise.htm

    I have a question; why were Nisaas’s comments published on the main–page and mocked? if someone does not understand something, rather then laugh and mock them why not explain to them they are mistaken the greatest thing humans can do is exchange knowledge, also getting a Muslim who is not very educated to defend her(?) faith is rather silly, you are just picking on a person who has poor-debating-skills.

    Saqeeb

    October 6, 2008 at 6:40 am

  25. Saqeeb,

    There is nothing disingenuous about my reading of the Quran. I read it and I post my thoughts on it. Simple. It doesn’t end up being the same Islam-is-peace interpretation I assume you’re a fan of (ie, my interpretation is literal).

    I support the publication of The Jewel of Medina (yes, it’s written by a woman, is that a problem for you?). Not because I think it’s going to be some great piece of literature, but simply because I think it’s stupid for a publisher to kowtow to Muslim threats before any threats were made at all. I know good and well what the book is about.

    I made a couple of posts about Mohammed’s concubines, and I did mention that 1 of them may or may not have been a wife. So we’re in agreement.

    Now coming back to you Kafirgirl if you are an atheist (as you claim)[…]

    Why would I claim to be an atheist if I really wasn’t? Or are you, as so many other Muslims have done via email, implying that I’m actually Jewish? If you’re going to say it, don’t bother beating around the bush.

    As for hadith, if you’ve read any of my other posts, you’ll realize that I think the hadith are absolute fiction — just like the Quran. The Quran itself has plenty of external and internal contradictions, but that doesn’t stop me from reading it. Plus, like Nissa, the vast majority of Muslims actually believe in hadith. They cherry pick the ones that are suitable to them, of course, but they still believe them. I’m pretty quick to point out these contradictions (like the Aisha being 9 years old bit).

    You say the only men who are still having sex with young girls are illiterate men who use Mohammed as an excuse. Not true. Rich Arab businessmen from the Gulf routinely go to south Asia to buy pre-teen brides. A friend of mine from Saudi Arabia recently sent me a newspaper article from a Saudi paper that talks about what a huge problem this is.

    You can plead ignorance about Mohammed’s life all you want. In fact, it’s wholly refreshing to see someone take that route rather than go on and on about how great a man Mohammed was. There aren’t very many actual historical accounts about the guy’s life outside of the Quran and hadith, and neither was committed to writing under well after he died. But that’s the problem there — the Quran and the hadith are all we really have that gives us a good picture of what he was like, the things he did. And since Muslims believe in both (minus some people, like you, who disregard the hadith), I’m using both sources for this blog. Doesn’t mean, by the way, that I believe in either.

    As for the homosexuality thing, you’re using an Islamic apologist page to counter a Christian missionary page. One man’s interpretation vs another man’s interpretation. You’re not winning any points either, buddy. After scanning through the site quickly though, it doesn’t really say anything about there not being homosexuality in heaven. Just stuff about “the righteous.” Vague, no?

    Incidentally, I did point out in my original post about homosexuality in heaven that the argument is from a Christian website, which I take with a grain of salt.

    As for Nissa’s comments, I didn’t “get” an uneducated Muslim to defend her faith. And you’re assuming that Nissa is uneducated. I didn’t assume the same; just that there was a language barrier.

    I think I explained pretty well why I gave them their own page. She went through and posted in some very old posts that nobody is following anymore. I would have let them die out in my spam box, except that readers have asked to see these things.

    There actually has been a back-and-forth with Nissa (and some other Muslims) in the comments of other posts and it’s been to no avail. But that’s besides the point.

    In case you haven’t figured it out already, this is a site that mocks inane drivel religious folks believe in. It’s not my job to educate Muslims on what their faith is or on how to argue on someone’s blog. Nissa left her comments by her own free will. On my blog. I’m pretty sure I can use them for whatever the fuck I want, thanks.

    kafirgirl

    October 6, 2008 at 8:35 am

  26. @Saqeeb: I don’t have time to address everything (I have a job and stuff), but …

    why would you base any of your reasoning on Islamic history on sources which carry internal and external contradictions? (Namely the hadith)

    Why would you base any of your reasoning on Islamic history on sources which carry internal and external contradictions? (Namely the Quran.)

    why would you keep going on the lines of “Aisha was 9 years old when Mummahed had sex with her” (not saying you actually said it in those words)

    Muslims wrote those words. Muslim historians. A long time ago.

    The only men who are still having sex with young girls are illiterate men who think Muhammed (sws) had sex with a 9 year old

    You mean illiterate men like the Ayatollah Khomeini? I don’t believe he was illiterate. He married an 11 year old and made sure Iranian Sharia Law allowed marriages to “women” 9 years of age, following the example of Muhammad.

    And have you been reading the news of all those reports in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Pakistan, etc?

    Thanks for playing Stump the Infidel. Better luck next time.

    Peace.

    Michael

    October 6, 2008 at 8:36 am

  27. Happy to be Gone, it’s funny — I hear more from ex-Muslims these days than I do practicing Muslims. And all of the exes have one thing in common: they’re happy as all hell to be out of that religion. Your post warmed my icy little heart. Thank you all the kind words and the support.

    It sucks that you can’t live openly — I can’t even imagine how hard that must be. You’re braver than me, that’s for sure.

    I’m glad you’re enjoying the blog so far. I hope you’ll jump in and comment on other posts with your experiences. High five!

    kafirgirl

    October 6, 2008 at 8:58 am

  28. Saqeeb said: “…getting a Muslim who is not very educated to defend her(?) faith is rather silly…”

    Don’t be so bloody condescending. There’s no indication that Nissa is uneducated, so the posters here have assumed that she is capable of defending herself and responded accordingly.

    Nissa’s problem is that she parrots poor arguments that we have been heard (and debunked) many times before. That doesn’t automatically translate to “she’s a bit thick” as you seem to imply.

    manigen

    October 6, 2008 at 9:20 am

  29. In heaven you get;

    Handsome young male servants god made just to serve you and a companion with beautiful, big, And lustrous eyes (apparently no choice on the companion). That doesn’t sound gay at all.

    Where do all the virgins come in?

    Just more proof you can’t polish a turd!

    GAD

    October 6, 2008 at 11:41 am

  30. Sorry, there is no gay sex in Islam…

    Just read in a Dutch newspaper that Ahmed Marcouch, Amsterdam-based politician of the PvdA (somewhat like Labourparty), mentions a number a 150.000 muslim homosexuals in The Netherlands. He asks them to come out on the eve of the International Coming Out day, whilst calling for their acceptance from the muslim community.

    The fastest speed I can imagine? Easy, must be c.
    (299.792.458 m/s)

    DutchA

    October 6, 2008 at 2:24 pm

  31. Saqeeb,

    You ask.. “Why would you base any of your reasoning on Islamic history on sources which carry internal and external contradictions? (Namely the hadith)”

    How come you do not ask the faithful why do they draw moral conclusions and moral instruction from a document that carries internal and external contradictions?

    Why is it OK to extol Mohammad’s virtues based on the Hadith (as most of the faithful are wont to do) but not OK to expose his numerous failings based on the same document?

    The problem is that well-intentioned people like you are seeking an imbalance in public discussion about religion (esp. their own religion).

    You want to refer to passages that glorify Mohammad/Jesus/Yahweh for his actions/thoughts/utterances – but if those same passages reveal an unflattering picture, you resort to questioning the truthfulness or sincerity of the examiner.

    I appreciate sincere debate (even if we agree that we will probably not change anyone’s mind). But what you are trying to do (maybe un-wittingly) is shift the goal-posts whenever its in-convenient.

    Cheers,

    Rahul

    October 6, 2008 at 2:30 pm

  32. 1. I want Jasmine from Pakistan to stand up to be the next president of Pakistan, for whenever the next Pakistan election is. If I could I would vote for you.

    2. “Happy to be Gone”, I share your sentiments. Same here. I’m happy to be free from the “virus” (as Dawkins once described it) that is religion.

    3. Kafirgirl, my name has no ‘e’s in it. :-) OK?

    Muhamad

    October 6, 2008 at 2:33 pm

  33. Muhamad — so sorry, sir. Force of habit! I have to double back often when I spell “Mohammed” because the Mo’s in my family spell it Muhammed. And when I see Mohamet — *head explosion*

    kafirgirl

    October 6, 2008 at 2:42 pm

  34. Just saw this recent BBC story about the Jewel of Medina:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7649712.stm

    Three Muslim guys were arrested. Shocking. (Not.) At least they didn’t kill anyone. This time.

    Michael

    October 6, 2008 at 4:34 pm

  35. Kafirgirl,

    There is nothing disingenuous about my reading of the Quran. I read it and I post my thoughts on it. Simple. It doesn’t end up being the same Islam-is-peace interpretation I assume you’re a fan of (ie, my interpretation is literal).

    I was actually referring to the hadith, but I do see your point. With respect to Islam is peace (lol) no Islam although derived from the root word peace is not peace, if someone is going to make such apologetic arguments and reinterpret the Quran then he/she must have been the prophet/prophetess of Islam. Islam is militant, and I as a fundamentalist Muslim make no apologies for this. Reality is not always “Black & and White” yes there are things in the Quran if you are not a Muslim will make your eyes bleed, I know very well what I follow and base my life on.

    (yes, it’s written by a woman, is that a problem for you?)

    I think the lack of scholarly integrity of her is a problem for me. I don’t have a problem with her actually being a woman, she’s a woman of her house although I would not entertain her. I suppose that is more of a sexual preference.

    Not because I think it’s going to be some great piece of literature, but simply because I think it’s stupid for a publisher to kowtow to Muslim threats before any threats were made at all. I know good and well what the book is about.

    Did you know it was a non-Muslim who completely trashed the book on an intellectual level and that too, a non Muslim theologian scholar? I think the publishers where more worried about the fallacies of the book, rather then a Muslim response. Even a Muslim (I use the term loosely) Irshad Manji criticized the publisher.

    Why would I claim to be an atheist if I really wasn’t? Or are you, as so many other Muslims have done via email, implying that I’m actually Jewish?

    Even if you were a Jew, you could still be an atheist, so no I am not that stupid to claim/imply you are Jewish without any evidence. I understand atheism very well. In fact I understand atheism too well.

    As for hadith, if you’ve read any of my other posts, you’ll realize that I think the hadith are absolute fiction

    To be honest I only read this post am not trying to be rude or big-headed but this blog is beneath my intellect, I am more intrested in the comments, as opposed to the actual content posted on the main-blog, sorry.

    The Quran itself has plenty of external and internal contradictions, but that doesn’t stop me from reading it. Plus, like Nissa, the vast majority of Muslims actually believe in hadith. They cherry pick the ones that are suitable to them, of course, but they still believe them.

    Personally, to my perception I don’t find any internal or external contradictions, or maybe it would be more true to say I just don’t think too much about them. Yes you are right the vast majority of Muslims do accept the hadith to be historically factual. Having a belief is accepting everything to be factually correct despite it not being so when under study objectively so I think its unfair or maybe unreasonable to state Muslims “believe” in the hadith Muslims fundamentally “believe” in the Quran and accept the hadith to be historically factually to which I disagree I am of the opinion majority of the hadith are not based on actual historical facts, some hadith contradict empirical scientific evidence which I cannot possibly accept to be factual or accurate description of historical events, I am pretty sure over the space of 1,400 years the natural fundamental laws of nature have not changed.

    Rich Arab businessmen from the Gulf routinely go to south Asia to buy pre-teen brides. A friend of mine from Saudi Arabia recently sent me a newspaper article from a Saudi paper that talks about what a huge problem this is

    I actually wanted to say ignorant or idoit Muslims literate or illiterate pedophiles would want to marry a 9 year old.

    Doesn’t mean, by the way, that I believe in either.

    Am I going old? or something… If you make a statement for example: “Mumahhed (pbuh) was a pedophile” then you actually believe he was a pedophile as you’ve made a conclusion on an aspect of the life of an historical person. If you accept that then you must also accept Muhammed (pbuh) talked to angels and fought demons — which of course if you are an atheist creates a paradox, as a (gieunine) atheist would not make a conclusion based on evidence which is relaying heavily on metaphysics and the supernatrual. My question and I think it still does stand and is reasonable is; how can you accept Muhammed (pbuh) had sex with a 9 year old and yet not believe in angels? are you also not “picking and choosing” the same thing you are accusing of the Muslims of doing? and that is the actual reason why I questioned why you claiming to be an atheist!

    experiment:

    A)Muhammad (pbuh) was a pedophile.
    B)Muhammad spoke to angels.

    (Both prepositions are based on one prime source of evidence; the hadith.

    If you accept A, then you automatically, accept B. As its based on the same primary source, if you contest B (and as an atheist you would) then it brings into question the objective integrity of the primary source the hadith. So as an atheist for you, it would be unreasonable to accept either position, assuming you are intelligent enough to understand the paradoxical outcome of your conclusion if you did accept either one of the two options.

    As for the homosexuality thing, you’re using an Islamic apologist page to counter a Christian missionary page. One man’s interpretation vs another man’s interpretation. You’re not winning any points either, buddy. After scanning through the site quickly though, it doesn’t really say anything about there not being homosexuality in heaven. Just stuff about “the righteous.” Vague, no?

    What tool do you use to validate the credibility of a source’s conclusion? Meaning to internally rationalize one source above another?

    Incidentally, I did point out in my original post about homosexuality in heaven that the argument is from a Christian website, which I take with a grain of salt.

    Wow the atheists are using Christian missionary arguments to attack Muslims, wow I guess this must be the new low for atheists… Jokes aside as I said previously I’ve not really read past this post, in all honesty.

    As for Nissa’s comments, I didn’t “get” an uneducated Muslim to defend her faith. And you’re assuming that Nissa is uneducated. I didn’t assume the same; just that there was a language barrier.

    I want to apologize to Nissa, I am sure she is not uneducated, it just came out wrong, I think she is ignorant of Islam. The way I looked at it and it came off to me as, here you have this poor ignorant Muslim, and you were mocking her, and pretty brutally too, I just did not like it purely on an ethical level, I thought it was unethical.

    In case you haven’t figured it out already, this is a site that mocks inane drivel religious folks believe in. It’s not my job to educate Muslims on what their faith is or on how to argue on someone’s blog. Nissa left her comments by her own free will. On my blog. I’m pretty sure I can use them for whatever the fuck I want, thanks.

    How much caffeine does your coffee have? you don’t need to bite my head off. I know its your blog, am not trying to piss you off just trying to have a conversation and trying to understand and look at things form a different perspective.

    Michael,

    Why would you base any of your reasoning on Islamic history on sources which carry internal and external contradictions? (Namely the Quran.)

    I am scared of going to hell. If you were accepting a more profound answer I am sorry to disappoint, I could lie but I would only be lying to myself.

    You mean illiterate men like the Ayatollah Khomeini? I don’t believe he was illiterate. He married an 11 year old and made sure Iranian Sharia Law allowed marriages to “women” 9 years of age, following the example of Muhammad.

    He is sick.

    Peace.

    Peace to you too.

    manigen,

    I have apologized I did not think out my response correctly, the word I should have used is ignorant, as I have evidence of calling her ignorant about Islam.

    Rahul,

    How come you do not ask the faithful why do they draw moral conclusions and moral instruction from a document that carries internal and external contradictions?

    Its fear going to hell for not following the moral rules which are defined as divine and infallible. Hell is a horrible place. In fact I would not even want kafirgirl to end up there!

    I appreciate sincere debate (even if we agree that we will probably not change anyone’s mind). But what you are trying to do (maybe un-wittingly) is shift the goal-posts whenever its in-convenient.

    Cheers,

    I am not shifting the goal posts, I also want a discussion and debate.

    Saqeeb

    October 6, 2008 at 7:54 pm

  36. @GAD: Where do all the virgins come in?

    Well, you and others may like this link:

    http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/1741.htm

    “Saudi Cleric Omar Al-Sweilem Extols the Breasts and Thighs of the Black-Eyed Virgins of Paradise”

    I just love MEMRI.

    Michael

    October 6, 2008 at 8:34 pm

  37. Oh Saqeeb :(

    Here I was all ready to laugh at you.

    Crystal

    October 6, 2008 at 8:43 pm

  38. Michael, now that’s what I’m talking about! I don’t want no hot young boys severing me, no offense to anyone, I just don’t roll that!

    GAD

    October 6, 2008 at 8:58 pm

  39. My question and I think it still does stand and is reasonable is; how can you accept Muhammed (pbuh) had sex with a 9 year old and yet not believe in angels?

    So if a man has sex with a child that proves there is angels! LOL!

    You talk about intellect then present an argument so absurd that even the fools are laughing!

    GAD

    October 6, 2008 at 9:16 pm

  40. Saqeeb

    I don’t have a problem with her actually being a woman, she’s a woman of her house although I would not entertain her. I suppose that is more of a sexual preference.

    You prefer men?

    sista

    October 7, 2008 at 4:08 am

  41. Saqeeb, you shouldn’t apologise at me, talk to Nissa. It was her you insulted.

    Also, I have to say that GAD is right, Saqeeb. First you say “[I] am not trying to be rude or big-headed but this blog is beneath my intellect”. Then, a few paragraphs later you demonstrate your intellect with this thought experiment:

    “experiment:

    A)Muhammad (pbuh) was a pedophile.
    B)Muhammad spoke to angels.

    (Both prepositions are based on one prime source of evidence; the hadith.

    If you accept A, then you automatically, accept B.”

    Unfortunately for your argument, framed as it is by your massive intellect, there is an unspoken assumption in that chain of logic. Put out a little more thoroughly, your argument reads:

    Contentions:
    1) Muhammad was a paedophile.
    2) Muhammad talked to angels.

    Assumptions:
    1) The Hadith states that both of these contentions are true.
    2) The Hadith is either all true, or all false.

    Therefore:
    If an atheist accepts that Muhammad was a paedophile, they are also accepting that the Hadith is at least partly true (assumption 1). It follows that the atheist must believe that angels exist (assumption 2).

    QED

    All well and good, except that your arguments rest upon an assumption that you have not supported. We will accept that the Hadith states that both of the contentions are true. What we will not accept, without evidence, is that the Hadith is either completely true or completely false. You are ignoring a third possibility; that it might be only partly correct.

    So, as soon as you could spare the time, please feel free to clear up this perplexing little logical conundrum you have established. We’ll wait. Just as soon as you have supported assumption 2, I’m sure we’ll all accept your arguments.

    In the meantime, while I hate to repeat myself, stop being so condescending to everyone with a spare X chromosome. It just makes you look like an idiot.

    manigen

    October 7, 2008 at 5:57 am

  42. GAD,

    You do not even understand the argument, you just presented a strawman fallacy. You misconstrued/misrepresented my argument. If you accept a man had sex with a 9 year old from the same source which says he spoke to angels what makes him having sex with a 9 year old anymore credible then him talking to angels? We are not even discussing the possibility, we are discussing how one internally rationalizes the integrity of one claim above another while both come from the same original source. If one of the claims within a source is likely to be fallacious how can you accept the whole body of works without questioning the integrity of the source? As I don’t see anyone here use anything other then the primary source to base their conclusions on. If Muhammad according to the hadith had sex with a 9 year old it also equally makes it credible he talked to angels, according to the hadith.

    sista,

    No I do not prefer men, the point I wanted to make was, my sexual preference is for women who are subservient and obedient. If folks can accept the sexual preference of a homosexual (namely feminists) then they have no moral ground to stand on to attack me or calling me a “misogynistic” it would be akin to one calling a homosexual a “faggot” or other derogatory terms. Its a sexual preference, I prefer submissive women. Now do you have a problem with my sexual preference?

    manigen,

    If an atheist accepts that Muhammad was a paedophile, they are also accepting that the Hadith is at least partly true (assumption 1). It follows that the atheist must believe that angels exist (assumption 2).

    How is that (“assumption 1”) an assumption? its a fact! please don’t go around throwing terms which you do not even know the definition of, moreover I never said “believe”, belief is KNOWING something is true, accepting something to be true is based on reason, you accept something to be true because you have evidence to accept it to be true. I don’t “believe” in evolution I accept the supporting evidence which backs up the scientific thoery. I don’t “KNOW” its true, I just accept there is supportive evidence which points to it being true at this present moment in time, this does not necessarily mean I “believe” in evolution thoery I “accept” (or approve) of the thoery.

    Thus by the same extension atheists accept the hadith to be true or approve of them. So they also have to approve of something called angels which are part of the supernatrual thus creating a paradoxical conclusion.

    It would be reasonable for an atheist to say “some Muslims accept, Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old as its stated in the hadith which Muslims accept to be true”

    The key point here being Muslims accept the hadith to be true. If I said to an atheist do you think Muhammad (pbuh) was a pedophile and if he was reasonable his most likely answer would be “there is no conclusion evidence for me to accept Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old” however if an…atheist says “Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old” this is unreasonable.

    You are ignoring a third possibility; that it might be only partly correct.

    Lets for the sake of argument accept it might be partly true, how do you know, that the section of him having sex with a 9 year old is true, and him having the sexual power of 100 men is not true? what tool do you use to validate the integrity of one claim above another? you are just clutching on straws now.

    X chromosome

    Don’t try to impress me with your wiki’d knowledge of genetics. I don’t consider myself to be superior to females for being male, I believe both and women can be extremely intelligent, knowledge is not confined to gender, race or age, its universal.

    Comment on MEMRI TV it was founded by two formerly Israeli military intelligence agents. Both of whom were early critics of the Oslo accords, its stance is that it is opposed to Islamic fundamentalism,. not Islam itself. While the website has links to evangelical Christian organizations which are also very dangerous to atheists as well, (creationism anyone?) so what makes it so acclaimed and distinguished?

    According to its executive director: “Our goal is bridging the gap between middle east and west” MEMRI actually cherry-picks Arab media to favor its own biased and partisan views. According to Juan Cole a middle east scholar: “Memri is biased and selective against the Arab press… castes Arabs especially committed Muslims in a negative light ” Memari is operated by a group closely associated with the Isreali intelligence organization.

    Amos Harel, IDF reviving psychological warfare unit, Haaretz January 25, 2005 states:

    “Psychological officers were in touch with Isreali journalists covering the Arab world, gave them translated from Arab papers which were planted by the IDF and presented to the Isreali reporters to publish the same news here”

    A few facts and reasons for why I have a strong dislike for this organization and its ‘cherry-picked’ videos from the Middle East Media, many with errors in its translations and the way the do ‘specific editing (cutting and pasting).’

    No wonder Al-Jazeera created an English version cause this organization was making it look like a terrorist owned news agency in the Middle East!

    Saqeeb

    October 7, 2008 at 8:02 am

  43. To be honest I only read this post am not trying to be rude or big-headed but this blog is beneath my intellect, I am more intrested in the comments, as opposed to the actual content posted on the main-blog, sorry.

    I think you’ve mistaken this blog for a forum or a message board. If you’re here only to spout off your comments without reading anything I’ve actually written, I’m not interested at all in anything you have to say. You’ve read the comment policy, I see, which means you know how things work around here. Buh bye.

    kafirgirl

    October 7, 2008 at 8:43 am

  44. I thought about responding to Saqeeb. Then I thought: “Don’t feed the troll”. Let’s just leave it at that shall we?

    manigen

    October 7, 2008 at 10:13 am

  45. Saqeeb

    I understand your argument just fine, its just that it is bullshit.

    If you believe any natural claim in the quran/hadith then you must also believe any supernatural claim.

    This is the bullshit reasoning of fools and prophets.

    GAD

    October 7, 2008 at 11:47 am

  46. ..my sexual preference is for women who are subservient and obedient. !!

    ..and all feminists and women who do not want to be subservient and OBEDIENT to men are…VOILA! Homosexuals!

    A misogynist is someone who hates/ridicules/derogates women or women who are not “to their liking of what a woman should be” It is a conscious societal behavior which of course one can be called out for. How can you conflate it with homosexuality which is a private disposition? Calling someone a misogynist, or a racist, or a fascist is the same as calling a homosexual person a faggot? or a black person a nigger? Can I call you an egg-head?

    Sexual submissiveness is entirely different from blanket subservience and obedience. There are plenty of bottoms out there….care to explore?

    Don’t feed the troll…yeah, but he’s funny and I like having fun. How disobedient of me.

    sista

    October 7, 2008 at 12:01 pm

  47. Don’t feed the troll…yeah, but he’s funny and I like having fun. How disobedient of me.

    And, I gotta tell ya, it’s way fun watching you have fun with him!

    kafirgirl

    October 7, 2008 at 12:44 pm

  48. Sista: You’re right. What the hell.

    manigen

    October 7, 2008 at 1:03 pm

  49. my sexual preference is for women who are subservient and obedient.

    And if you fear they aren’t subservient and obedient, it is a good thing Allah allows you to beat them into submission.

    Seriously. Sick.

    And BTW, blaming the Jews for MEMRI only increases my appreciation of MEMRI. It isn’t the Jews or MEMRI that are casting Arabs and Muslims in a bad light. It is the Arabs and Muslims that are doing it to themselves by going on TV (or radio or news — paper or web) and talking about the permissible ways to beat women, etc.

    Michael

    October 7, 2008 at 2:01 pm

  50. Yeah, right, just because Superman shags Lois Lane, life in Krypton is a proven fact, common sense notwithstanding. As both propositions come from a single source if one accepts that A: a man can shag a women, then automatically should accept B: life in Krypton is a proven fact too. I’m still looking for the pond the sun sets into (Koran 18.86)

    How could Ayatollah Khomeini know whether or not the Hadith regarding Aisha’s age at the time of her marriage to Mahomet is true? Khomeini decreed that “a man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age” Ach, righty right, he’s a heretic, a Shi’ah. Wonder which Islam is the real deal, could it be Wahabbism? Saqeeb’s? Makkah’s or Madinah’s? Methinks Muslim Arabs should leave Jerusalem ASAP given that their claim to the city is based on the Hadith.

    We should believe al-Jazeera’s drivel instead of Menri’s because:

    Al Jazeera dismissed a woman for being white, Christian and British: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1918570/Al-Jazeera-chief-fired-for-being-white-Christian.html

    In Saudi Arabia the most senior judge has said it is permissible to kill the owners of satellite TV channels which broadcast immoral programmes: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7613575.stm

    Etc.

    I guess the former aren’t examples of Islamic fundamentalism, are they? I mean, nobody in their right mind would ever doubt Saudi Arabia guarantees freedom of religion and other basic human rights like the right to a fair trial or gender equality.

    It’s no surprise a non-muslim trashed “The Jewel of Medina”, the world is full of dhimmis (most of them socialists) hellbent in the destruction of their own civilization, caving in to each and every whine of the primitive followers of a 7th century heresy of a heresy of Judaism, the later being a ripoff of Egyptian, Sumerian and Persian cults.

    Yago

    October 7, 2008 at 2:04 pm

  51. I see, most of you have resorted to ad-hominem attacks. I suppose when the argument is lost ad-hominems become the tool of the losers. I think any objective person following the comments will realize that when anything does not fit the world-view of most of the folks who post on here you end up attacking the person as opposed to the persons arguments, above all you have done is present red-herrings, straw-man arguments, and ad-hominems attacks all falling into the category of logical fallacies. So much for progressive discourse and debate.

    While logical fallacies may earn most of you a gold star from the mush-for-brains fetishism crowd, most reasonable folks will see you as the intellectually bankrupt you really are.

    Saqeeb

    October 7, 2008 at 3:21 pm

  52. Seriously mate, you’ve insulted almost everyone here with your posts, mostly by calling them stupid, and you think we’re the ones resorting to personal attacks? You’ve learnt the names for a whole list of logical fallacies, but you clearly don’t know what they mean.

    Also, what on earth is a “mush-for-brains fetishism crowd”? It sounds like a group of people who can only get there sexual kicks with people they consider to be more stupid than…they…are…

    Oh. I see.

    It’s you isn’t it? You’re the mush brain fetishist. It all makes sense now.

    manigen

    October 7, 2008 at 5:08 pm

  53. LOL!

    I wipe my own ass, I have magic powers. If you believe I wipe my own ass then you also must believe that I have magic powers.

    Unless you can prove to me otherwise, then I have proved that I have magic powers. While red-herrings, straw-man arguments, and ad-hominems attacks against me or my proof that I have magic powers may earn most of you a gold star from the mush-for-brains fetishism crowd, most reasonable folks will see you as the intellectually bankrupt you really are.

    LOL!

    GAD

    October 7, 2008 at 6:45 pm

  54. I see, most of you have resorted to ad-hominem attacks. I suppose when the argument is lost ad-hominems become the tool of the losers.

    While logical fallacies may earn most of you a gold star from the mush-for-brains fetishism crowd, most reasonable folks will see you as the intellectually bankrupt you really are.

    Loser.

    Seriously, Saqeeb, after you insult everyone here, including Nissa, what do you expect? Perhaps we are tired of your if Muhammad spoke to angels he is a pedophile arguments (or whatever). Maybe that wasn’t your intention. I don’t know. I’ll give you credit for an amusing argument — it had me laughing. After all, if you can see a little girl and an old man has sex with her, then angels must exist. Or something like that.

    If you really want to impress us, tell us why polygamy is no longer valid (4:3), why sex slaves are no longer valid (4:24/33:50), why beating women is no longer valid (4:34), and why it is no longer valid to fight Infidels until we convert to Islam or pay the Jizya in submission (9:29). That’s just for starters — I’ve got more. And do it within a Quranic framework. No “that’s not what Islam is about” arguments, because that doesn’t fly. It doesn’t convince us and it doesn’t convince the fundamentalist Muslims, either.
    Peace.

    Michael

    October 7, 2008 at 8:41 pm

  55. I see… we’ve hurt Saqeeb’s feelings. RUN FOR COVER!

    Yago

    October 8, 2008 at 10:33 am

  56. as i have said before Islam is militant. death to all whom don’t follow Islam.

    Saqeeb

    October 8, 2008 at 7:01 pm

  57. sorry please i am leaving i say sorry to every one. please enjoy your life.

    Saqeeb

    October 8, 2008 at 7:08 pm

  58. Yup. There ya go. That’s pretty much a look into my inbox!

    He’s been banned, obviously. Now go back to enjoying your lives. Please. *Wink*

    kafirgirl

    October 8, 2008 at 8:58 pm

  59. I want his icon!

    Crystal

    October 8, 2008 at 11:44 pm

  60. as i have said before Islam is militant. death to all whom don’t follow Islam.

    Well, at least that is honest.

    Michael

    October 9, 2008 at 12:01 am

  61. Saqeeb said: “death to all whom don’t follow Islam”

    and: “please enjoy your life”

    Well now I’m not sure what I’m supposed to do. Be happy? Drop dead? I suppose I’ll just have to move on and live with not knowing. Sigh.

    Kafirgirl said: “That’s pretty much a look into my inbox!”

    Your inbox is a lively place, isn’t it?

    manigen

    October 9, 2008 at 5:04 am

  62. Or deadly, depending on how you look at it. Wah wah!

    kafirgirl

    October 9, 2008 at 8:01 am

  63. Crystal: No, you don’t want his “icon” … :-)

    Michael

    October 9, 2008 at 8:45 am

  64. Lol. I should just figure out how to put in my own picture like watercat has.

    Crystal

    October 9, 2008 at 1:30 pm

  65. Crystal: I’ve never done it myself (obviously) but I think you can change your icon by signing up at en.gravatar.com with the same username and email you use here.

    manigen

    October 9, 2008 at 1:59 pm

  66. I couldn’t stop laughing reading the posts..I was about to fall off my chair reading about jibril and how fast he flies and even then he took 33 yrs to fly over that garden..ROTFLOL….She should be awarded the KafirGirl award for “BEST POST EVER”..Think abt it KG ;-)…

    Keep posting Nissa…please don’t stop ..

    vani

    October 9, 2008 at 5:10 pm

  67. I read about Saqeeb’s statement and here is what I think. I DO NOT contend with any of what is written in the hadith. I accept both of them as true but I merely draw my own conclusions based on what is written.

    A) Mohammed consummated his marriage to the 9 yr old Aisha – HENCE Mohammed was a pedophile. This is an “interpretation” of what is written in the hadith not what “IS” written in the hadith.
    B)Mohammed saw and spoke to angels – HENCE he was a raving lunatic and schizophrenic. This again is an interpretation. I am free to interpret it as I choose can’t I , unlike in the muslim world where freedom of thought is considered dangerous.

    Obviously you wouldn’t see the fallacy in your logic. You are using example A) an interpretation of the hadith and comparing it with example B) to that which is written in the hadith. It’s like comparing an apple not to oranges but to whether orange is a fruit at all.

    vani

    October 9, 2008 at 6:52 pm

  68. watercat

    October 9, 2008 at 7:06 pm

  69. Thnx!

    Crystal

    October 10, 2008 at 12:53 pm


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