KafirGirl

We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

Scientific miracles in the Quran, take 2

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Our friends at the Atheist Experience recently got an email from a viewer that got my old wheels turning.  Saki wanted to know the best way to approach a certain argument that some Muslims pull out as evidence of their God being cooler than your God.  Or your non-God, in this case.  Russell Glasser thought I’d like to take a crack at it, and he was right.  (Thanks for the forward, Russell!)

From Saki’s email:

ok, i realize that you probably don’t do this sorta thing, but i’m getting really really ticked of over this one god damned (pardon the pun) argument that keeps popping up that i’ve been having to put to rest a good ten to fifteen times now… someone or the other quotes something from their holy book and goes “well this refers to this scientific discovery that wasn’t made until recently. How could people from the 7th century possibly know that?”

Hey, it’s the return of the Quranic scientific miracle!  We got into this a little back in chapter 4, but it’s definitely worth discussing on its own.  The exact argument that Saki is referring to is laid out in detail at this site.  You can read it in full there.

Here’s the 10 second run down for all you lazy bastards out there:  the Quran describes embryology in vivid detail which Mohammed’s 7th century local yokels couldn’t possibly have known about.  The Quran wins! May Allah have mercy on you silly assholes.

Lets jump in and do it to it.

First things first:  what translation is this guy using?  If you’ve been following along as I blog my way through the Quran, you already know why I’m asking.  We’ve seen over and over again that translators will sweeten things up a little by adding in science-y stuff that isn’t found in other translations.  What was once translated as mustard seed is now translated as atom. The translation I’m reading does this shit all the time.  In chapter 4, for instance, Ahmed Ali says God created man out of single cell:

(4:1) O MEN, FEAR your Lord who created you from a single cell, and from it created its mate,

Single cell.  Sounds pretty impressive for 600 CE, right?  But if you check some other translations, it doesn’t say the same thing:

AJ Arberry:
(4:1) Mankind, fear your Lord, who created you of a single soul, and from it created its mate,

Marmaduke Pickthall:
(4:1) O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate

Syed V. Ahamed:
(4:1) O Mankind! Fear (and respect) your (Guardian) Lord, Who created you, from a single person (Adam), and from him, He (Allah) created his mate of similar nature,

So two translators come up with single soul, one with single person and Ahmed Ali somehow twists that same Arabic into single cell. Every time something sounds a little too science-y, I cross check with other translations.  And guess what?  It’s usually the translator fluffing things up.  When it comes to scientific miracles in the Quran, I go by one common sense rule:  if it sounds too modern to be true, it probably is.  Cross check, cross check, cross check.

Now back to the semen thing.  How could 7th century Arabs possibly have known that man was created from a drop of semen?  Well, who says the word semen is in the Arabic at all?  See above about translators being asshats, and then check this out:

(86:5) Let man consider what he was made of:
(86:6) He was created of spurting water
(86:7) Issuing from (the pelvis) between the backbone and the ribs.

That’s right.  Man is created from spurting water. Spurting water that comes from between the backbone and the ribs.  Isn’t that where the kidneys are?  Now, I’m no expert on all things testicular, but I’m pretty fucking sure that’s where the baby juice comes from.  I learned that in, oh, 6th grade.  I thought boys were weird and gross then, and honestly, that little bit of information didn’t help their case out at all.

Even if other parts of the Quran specifically mention the word semen in Arabic, that one blunder there is kind of a big one.  And it’s not just an Ahmed Ali mistake either:

A. J. Arberry:
(86:6) he was created of gushing water
Pickthall:
(86:6) He is created from a gushing fluid
Syed V. Ahamed:
(86:6) He is created from a drop emitted

See that?  Three translations that say spurting/gushing water/fluid, and then one says a drop emitted. Ahh, the magic of apologetics.  And here I thought the word of God was immutable.  Silly me!

To me, the whole house of cards comes crumbling down when you have a huge honking mistake like this in the Quran.  But there’s more to the argument than just that. What about the 3 layers of the uterus bit?  And the 3 distinct stages thing?  Who else but God could have told Mohammed about all of that?

Here’s the deal:  Muslims are claiming that God revealed these things to Mohammed before scientists discovered them.  A lot of people have this idea that Mohammed’s people were all by their lonesome in the middle of Arabia.  So anything that sounds even remotely outside the desert world must surely be evidence that the Quran is the true word of God.  It’s just too fucking bad that science was moving along just fine before the Quran came along, and that the Arabs were not really isolated at all.

I’m not really sure where that whole isolation thing comes from.  The Arabs were trading with plenty of people outside of Arabia.  Contemporary Greek trading documents mention Arab towns like Ta’if, Yathrib (Medina) and Khaybar.  And we know that the Persian Sassanids were in and out of Arabia between 300 and 570 CE.  Check out this nifty little map that shows the trade routes followed by an Arab tribe known as the Nabateans:

And those guys were trading as early as 600 BCE…by boat!  Hell, Mohammed’s first wife ran a successful trading business herself, and guess who worked for her?  Yup.  Mo, himself.  He took his first caravan to Syria for her before they were married.  It’s a quaint idea that the Arabs were free from all outside influence, but it’s a load of bullshit.

The water-kidney-sperm verses are a perfect example of why this idea is just fucking stupid:  it was a theory that the Greeks came up with before Mohammed was even born.  Ever heard of Hippocrates?  The father of medicine?  He had this wild idea that sperm is actually made up of different fluids in your body, and that it traveled through the brain, spine and finally the kidneys before it got to the testicles.  Give the guy a break.  This was, after all, in 400 BCE.  Old Hippocrates knew that sperm was responsible for baby-making over 1000 years before the Arabs’ little book came along.

And it’s not just Hippocrates either.  Aristotle had theories about fetal formation around 1000 years before the Quran came along.  He even accurately described the umbilical cord’s function, which is something God forgot to mention in the Quran.  Oops!

People who argue for these so-called scientific miracles in the Quran seem to think that science and surgeries and dissections are something that only started happening recently.  Not so much.  Animal lovers, look away:  Hippocrates performed surgeries on pregnant dogs and recorded his findings.  He describes the amniotic sac inside the uterus and everything.  And it’s not like Hippocrates was the first or only person in the world doing this or that these studies died when he did.  I imagine as time went on, experimenting progressed and peoples’ knowledge about things like fetal development and layers of the uterus got more and more accurate.  That’s kind of how science works, right?  Right??

So you have 1000 years between the time that Hippocrates and Aristotle are writing about amniotic sacs and stages of pregnancy and the time that the Quran comes out with all this layers of the uterus stuff.  And you’ve got a community of 7th century Arabs who are nowhere near as isolated as some people would have you believe.  The only miracle here is that people actually believe this shit even in the face of evidence that completely contradicts it.  Bah humbug.

Anyway, Saki, I hope that helps you out.   If anyone has any more questions like this, fire away.  Helping you helps me help you.  …yeah.

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Written by kafirgirl

September 20, 2008 at 2:35 pm

Posted in Quran, Rant, religion

Tagged with , ,

49 Responses

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  1. Great post. I’ve been having some fun with an evolution denying Muslim on Youtube. I may use your material if I decide to continue the “debate.”

    Maybe you can take on the video and make a post about it. Actually forget it, I always hate when I am given suggestions about what I should post about.

    The Atheist Jew

    September 20, 2008 at 2:55 pm

  2. Niandatols? Oh sweet lawsie mercy. I can’t stop laughing at that. I might make a post on it after all. How crazy can you get?

    kafirgirl

    September 20, 2008 at 4:12 pm

  3. Hi Kafirgirl, I read your posts often and although I have never posted, i thoroughly enjoy them. I was born into a hindu brahmin family but I don’t have much faith in that bearded man up in the sky.

    Anyway I wanted to also mention that this habit of interpreting the holy scriptures in ways which suit each person’s fancy, is not the habit of muslims only. I have seen christians and hindus try to find meaning in their Holy books or distort words when that seems to fit their agenda and then turn back and use another statement literally when it suits their fancy. That’s propaganda and those of us who are familiar with Goebbels and Nazi propaganda can draw a lot of similarity between these two.

    Btw, as an aside, I agree that even though people nowadays find it difficult to believe, there was a lot of cross cultural learnings in the ancient world between countries. Many of the great scientific advancements the greeks, romans and arabs claim to be their own, were actually transferred from India/Pakistan who in turn obtained them from the Chinese. These European and Arab countries only managed to spread it to other countries by virtue of their conquering armies. So, often what these ignoramuses claim to be their own are nothing but plagiarized and repackaged versions of the original.

    Vani

    September 20, 2008 at 5:05 pm

  4. btw I have often wondered, why I don’t find any comments from those islamo-fascists in your comments section..now I know why ;-)

    Vani

    September 20, 2008 at 5:08 pm

  5. 22:5 “We first created you from dust, then from a sperm, then from a clot of blood, then from a half-formed lump of flesh,”

    Keep naming shit and you’re bound to hit on the right one. Me, I think George Orwell was a Prophet. Lots more of his stuff came true.

    watercat

    September 20, 2008 at 6:13 pm

  6. My particular experience with this shit is when christians like Janet Folger uses assholes like Kent Hovind to try to ‘prove’ things were predicted in the Bible prior to their scientific discovery. After being a faithful reader of this blog it makes sense that nothing much about islam surprises me anymore. Yet i find it interesting that these folks are so bold to make these claims out of verses that are even more obscure than the Bible, which itself is also full of shit. Sample and savor the aromatic shit i’m used to at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cpNjyVvqK0

    Priest

    September 20, 2008 at 7:07 pm

  7. Vani, you’re absolutely right. This is definitely not something that only Muslims do. I don’t think I’m wrong in saying that personal interpretation and cherry picking has been around for as long as religion has existed. I’m not sure why people have such a hard time believing it though. I mean, trade routes were covering some pretty ridiculous differences. It irks me to no end when some Muslim comes on here talking about how Mohammed was illiterate and isolated in the desert (both claims are pure bullshit). As for the Islamofacists, I don’t publish the comments from Muslims that are Jew-bashing or sexist or death threats. I also don’t publish the overly preachy ones. Not worth my time. In my experience, that’s just hindered conversation, not progressed it. Screw it. They can go talk shit about me on the BBC bulletin boards where jackasses like that have free reign!

    Watercat, it’s totally retarded, right? The book has 8934032 different ways that man was created — everything from dust to blood clots to fermented clay and on and on and on. That’s a scientific miracle? Yet some bozo out there has figured out a way to string them together in a way that sounds almost acceptable….if you’re a total moron.

    Priest, ugh, that video made my eyes bleed. What the fuck is wrong with people? I can use Harry Potter to predict a number of scientific things, but I doubt anyone would take me seriously. …unless maybe I say have visions and that they’ll all go to hell if they don’t believe me. Then I might stand a chance of winning over a few dummies. That’s all it takes right? Hell-oh Scientology!

    kafirgirl

    September 20, 2008 at 8:54 pm

  8. This reminded me of Galen

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen

    Lots of his work was translated into Arabic

    which lead me to this

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/embryo.html

    GAD

    September 20, 2008 at 10:34 pm

  9. Ooooh Galen. Great add, GAD. Good link, too. I’ll have to read that in detail when I get a chance.

    kafirgirl

    September 20, 2008 at 10:59 pm

  10. P.S. As I was reading through a lot of stuff before writing this post, I came across Prof. Moore’s name a lot. The original poster of the argument even cites him at one point. And then I read this (http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/embryo.html):

    The Islamic edition of his textbook is not available even in the British Library or the US Library of Congress, let alone other medical libraries in Western countries

    And apparently his Western edition isn’t really available in the Middle East either. Gee, I wonder why. Maybe Moore knows there money is?

    kafirgirl

    September 20, 2008 at 11:09 pm

  11. Incidently even Ziauddin Sardar rubbished all the claims of science in Quran and he is a big time apologist. http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2008/08/quran-muslim-scientific The muslims might take his word over wannabes like Zakir Naik.

    Another Kafir

    September 21, 2008 at 12:24 am

  12. something that cracks me up;

    “Verses were written on palm leaves, stones, the shoulder-blades of animals-in short, on any material that was available”.

    Papyrus was invented 4000 earlier, in the Nile delta, and would have been a major export, right thru their back yard, on those caravans Mo worked for, along that blue line to Yemen; but they wrote on leaves. Gosh.

    lolkoran

    September 21, 2008 at 2:49 am

  13. “He had this wild idea that sperm is actually made up of different fluids in your body, and that it traveled through the brain, spine and finally the kidneys before it got to the testicles.” : one of the problems they wanted to solve was : how does it come that a son/daughter looks likes his/her father/mother. Like the mother, ok : he/she grows in her body. But the father? So, how does semen KNOW what the father looks like? Their solution was to let semen first ‘visit’ the father. Another approach was the blood theory : how you look and what you are is written in your blood somehow, and this is passed to your descendants. That’s where the aristocrats are getting their “blue blood” nonsense from, and why they are talking about ‘royal blood’ and ‘bloodline’.

    H.C.

    September 21, 2008 at 6:52 am

  14. Seeing as Mohammed got all this scientific stuff early it’s a shame the Muslims never put it to use and fucked up the west (and east) for the next 1000 years. Guess Mohammed’s friends were slow learners.

    Apparently women in Islamic countries are rocketing ahead in science and engineering, if you believe the following: http://www.sciencedev.net/fe/Article.aspx?Aid=826

    I started to have a look at the UNESCO stats and I don’t think that is quite the whole story. If I get time I will finish looking and send the results.

    Next thought:
    The Muslim extremists have probably done the one thing that won’t help Islam, they have attracted a lot of legitimate (ethical and rational, rather than religious) criticism of their religion in the West which it never received before. This may be the beginning of the decline, and all thanks to a few zealots in some planes and then people like KafirGirl and increasing internet access.

    Oz

    September 21, 2008 at 7:01 am

  15. KafirGirl
    Can you let a few of the nuttier comments through for light relief? I can always use a laugh at someone else’s expense.

    Oz

    September 21, 2008 at 7:05 am

  16. kafirgirl “I thought boys were weird and gross”. Surely you don’t still think that? :-) We serve a serious purpose you know. :-)

    Muhamad

    September 21, 2008 at 7:19 am

  17. I have debunked most of those “miracles”, but sorry, only in German:
    http://islam-deutschland.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1518
    Do you think I should translate it, or do you know a similar text in English?

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/ has discussed the “miracles” many times, but you have to search.

    kereng

    September 21, 2008 at 8:59 am

  18. More info that on embryology miracle woo woo. Every single one of the arguments I’ve come across uses Prof. Keith Moore’s book. Anyone know anything about this guy? It seems like 90% of the argument rests on his book alone. The one aimed for the East, not the West. Like I said, earlier, there are two different versions of that book: the Islamic version, and the one for everyone else. The latter of the two barely mentions the Quran at all. Sounds awfully shady to me.

    I also found it interesting that Moore worked in Saudi Arabia for a while. For the king. So I wondered whether Moore converted to Islam in light of these miracles. I found a handful of rumors, none of them confirmed — just some person on a forum saying, “I heard he converted.” There’s even a YouTube video where someone — not Moore — says Moore is a muslim now. But, uh, considering his name is still Keith Moore, I highly doubt it. Someone get Snopes in on this action?

    AK, I doubt they’ll take anyone’s word for it. Did you read the comments section? They either think he’s nuts (for not being apologetic enough) or they’ll telling him he missed the mark (for not being apologetic enough). Sad, sad, sad.

    lolkoran, I vaguely remember this from a college class so I might be wrong, but I believe papyrus was expensive and not something just anyone could get their hands on. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Am I totally off base?

    HC, wow, I had no idea that’s why. Well, Mohammed solved that problem:

    ‘As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets a discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets her discharge first, the child will resemble her.’

    That’s right. She who shoots her load first, wins.

    Oz, absolutely. Lately it’s been mostly spamming. “FUCK YOU BITCH!!!!!!” x 20 or so. Next time I get a loony, I’ll post em. And I think you’re right. The extremists have sort of put the spotlight on Islam. It may take some time, but I think we’ll eventually drag Islam into the 21st century. And every time I meet another ex-Muslim, it warms the cockles of my heart.

    Muhamed, I outgrew that by high school. Lucky for KafirBoy!

    kafirgirl

    September 21, 2008 at 9:11 am

  19. Kereng, I’ll see if Google translate does a decent job. Thanks for the link!

    kafirgirl

    September 21, 2008 at 9:11 am

  20. It is a mistake to think that Arabs were isolated. They had a maritime tradition and were expert navigators. Moving ur caravans across deserts or ships across seas requires adept navigation and knowledge about astronomical calculations. The knowledge about numerals was taken from India to Europe by Arabs as they found calculating with numerals easier rather than use Roman numerals. Makka was a busy port and Mo was himself plying Khadija’s caravans. So all this bull about Arabs being ignorant is a hogwash.

    Doing business involves maintaining accounts and Mo woudn’t be a successful businessman if he was not keeping accounts properly. These accounts would’ve been maintained on some easy to use medium and definitely not shoulder bones or stones.

    KK

    September 21, 2008 at 10:02 am

  21. As for the Islamofacists, I don’t publish the comments from Muslims that are Jew-bashing or sexist or death threats.

    C’mon, Muslims would never do that!

    Michael

    September 21, 2008 at 11:59 am

  22. So I wanted to read up a little more on Moore.

    MOORE, KEITH L., PhD, F.I.A.C. of the Department of Anatomy, University of Toronto, Canada. He stimulated a great deal of interest within Islam by his article “A Scientist’s Interpretation of References to Embryology in The Qur’an”. Because of his influential position, many Muslims thought that scientific information on embryology has vindicated the Qur’an. Interestingly, however, Dr. Moore has not risked his reputation in the medical establishment by publishing his findings except in Islamic journals. The Islamic edition of his textbook is not even available in the British Library or the U.S. Library of Congress, nor in the medical libraries in Western countries. It is thus clear that this article does not find its recognition among his peer scientists.

    Huh?? So none of that stuff is published outside of Islamic journals? Is that for real? This is from Answering Islam (http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/M/moore.html) so I’m not sure what to make of it.

    And then this:

    Professor Moore’s book The Developing Human, 3rd edition, has two different editions: the standard edition which is used in the west, and the “Islamic” edition which is used in some Muslim colleges. Comparing the two editions, it seems that not even Prof. Moore is sufficiently convinced by the scientific “facts” in the Qu’ran to risk his reputation as a prominent academic in the Western world. The Islamic edition (also in the 3rd edition) of his textbook is not even available in the British Library, nor can it be found in the US Library of Congress, nor in medical libraries in Western countries, presumably because he is aware that not only do the Islamic contributions to it contradict known science, but they also contradict what he himself has written in the standard version of his textbook. Perhaps Prof. Moore’s desire to sell his textbooks overseas was greater than his desire to seek the scientific truth?

    (http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/It-is-truth/chap03.htm)

    Uh. Interesting. I really dunno what to think.

    Thoughts, comments? Anyone? Is this thing on?

    kafirgirl

    September 21, 2008 at 12:09 pm

  23. Many of the great scientific advancements the greeks, romans and arabs claim to be their own, were actually transferred from India/Pakistan who in turn obtained them from the Chinese. These European and Arab countries only managed to spread it to other countries by virtue of their conquering armies.

    Arabic numerals/numbers originated in India.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals

    And yes, just as Vani said, a great number of the scientific advancements attributed to Islamic civilizations actually were through the conquering of other civilizations and absorbing them into the Umma. Once conquered, a steady and systematic decline in scientific progress ensued.

    Michael

    September 21, 2008 at 12:15 pm

  24. I’ve missed something. Why the particular interest in Moore? I checked the local university library catalogue and there must be about 5 editions on the shelf. I am going to Morocco in a couple of weeks, perhaps I should go to a university library there.

    Oz

    September 21, 2008 at 12:32 pm

  25. The interest in Moore is because the argument for the embryo miracle is based largely on him. I did a quick Google search to see what other Muslims were writing about it and it’s basically Moore says X, Y, Z which coincides with A, B, C in the Quran. Aside from that, there really isn’t much of an argument. And I’d never heard of him.

    It just struck me as kinda odd. Part of it is almost tokenism — a WESTERN(!!!) doctor says this is true so it must be. I think this pretty much killed it rest for me:

    Now a professor emeritus, Prof. Moore declined to be interviewed. Reached in Toronto, he said he was busy revising his textbook and that “it’s been 10 or 11 years since I was involved in the Quran.”

    (http://humanists.net/avijit/article/Western_Scientists_Bribed.htm)

    P.S. You’re going to Morocco? Color me jealous.

    kafirgirl

    September 21, 2008 at 12:40 pm

  26. You should read that debate between Zakir Naik and Dr. William Cambell. Ali Sina even analysed it on his site. The whole discussion is almost only on the embryology “miracle” of Quran. Dr. makes the right arguments but completely fails to impress the foolish because of lack of theatrics. Dr. Campbell tells about how this came from Greek scholars to the Arabs. His arguments and the comments of Ali Sina are quite an interesting argument.
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/NaikCampbellintro.htm

    Another Kafir

    September 21, 2008 at 12:52 pm

  27. Great post.

    SA

    September 21, 2008 at 5:52 pm

  28. Though Bible-science and Koran-science advocates have claimed that their favorite sacred books have numerous scientific discoveries, there are some interesting gaps in their claims.

    The biggest one is evolution.

    Have any of them ever claimed that their favorite sacred book describes descent with modification on a massive scale? Including human evolution?

    I don’t know of any.

    Another big one is methodology. Have they ever claimed anything on controlled experiments? Or more generally, on hypothesis-testing? I haven’t seen any. And if anything, there is the opposite — in John 20:24-29 (New Testament) is the story of Doubting Thomas, who was faulted for being too skeptical.

    And the state of scientific knowledge in the Bible and the Koran is often abysmal by present-day standards. Their authors believed that the Earth is flat, the author of Genesis 30 believed in the possibility of Lamarckian genetic engineering, etc.

    Loren Petrich

    September 21, 2008 at 7:20 pm

  29. You should read that debate between Zakir Naik and Dr. William Cambell.
    No you should not. You should drive nails into your skull. Less painful.

    I don’t see what’s the big deal. Here we have the Creation Museum (sic), and Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis, and The Discovery Institute, Roy Comfort—and this is all without Saudi oil money behind it. Same ignorance and stupidity, just different ways to spell ‘god’ and ‘scripture.’

    Well I lied–the big deal is if these guys join forces to stifle actual knowledge and science.

    watercat

    September 21, 2008 at 7:24 pm

  30. Very interesting post, kafirgirl. As part of the discussion Saki linked you to, I was also wondering what the best approach would be to this sort of argument (timeless, really, sinece it seems like I’ve heard it a million times from any muslim I have a conversation with about Islam). Great work and cheers!

    fr0st

    September 22, 2008 at 1:51 am

  31. AK, I’ll definitely read it. I never heard of Zakir Naik before someone mentioned him in a comment here — he’s the eat a pig / act like a pig guy, right? That still cracks me up.

    <Loren, the most incredible part about the flat earth thing is that there are people who believe that shit DESPITE all the evidence to the contrary. The Quran says it’s true, so it must be. In case you haven’t seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wppjYDj9JUc
    Hilarious! But also sad, pathetic and totally ignorant.

    I don’t see what’s the big deal. Here we have the Creation Museum (sic), and Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis, and The Discovery Institute, Roy Comfort—and this is all without Saudi oil money behind it. Same ignorance and stupidity, just different ways to spell ‘god’ and ’scripture.’

    Good point. I think unlike Ray Comfort, though, this guy actually seems like a legitimate scientist. But I’ve now read two recent interviews where he refuses to comment on the Quran stuff and says he left that behind a decade ago. I guess he’s back to being legitimate? Good for him! Too bad the Muslims will never stop claiming him to be their hero.

    fr0st, thank you, and I hope it helps. I, too, have heard this a million times from Muslims — must be a popular discussion topic at mosque! There are easier ways to dispute this claim They’ll say something like, “Well how could the Arabs have known that an embryo looks like a leech??” Uhhh from observation? Are you telling me in the history of the Arabs, they never slaughtered and gutted a camel or goat that turned out to be a little preggo? Or they’ll say, “How could they possibly have known about man coming from sperm?” How’s about the Bible? It talks about the seed of man, and it’s way older than the Quran. So if you don’t remember the trade routes and Hippocrates and Aristotle and pregnant dogs, these come in handy, too.

    kafirgirl

    September 22, 2008 at 8:06 am

  32. I just noticed how funny the name Creation Museum really is. That is where it belongs.

    Oz

    September 22, 2008 at 12:06 pm

  33. Except for where it says qur’an at the top, it’s hard to believe this wasn’t published by the Creation Museum. The allah-bots and the jesus-bots are forming an alliance against people with brains.

    Can you guess who’s talking in this quote? I exchanged ‘Allah’ for ‘Jesus’:

    “What you see in Iraq, basically, is a manifestation of what’s going on in this unseen world called the spirit world. … We need to think like Allah thinks. We are in a time and a season of war, and we need to think like that. … Allah called us to die. You’re worried about getting hurt? He’s called us to die. … I believe that Allah himself operated from that position of war mode. Everyone say ‘war mode.’ ”

    To me anyway, that sounds like Mohammed in chapter 8. The quotes are Ed Kalnins, the pastor at Sarah Palin’s church. He also said this which sounds like the following verse:

    “I hate criticisms towards the president, because it’s like criticisms towards the pastor – it’s almost like, it’s not going to get you anywhere, you know, except for hell. That’s what it’ll get you.”

    33:57 Those who insult God and His Messenger will be rejected by God in this world and the next; He has prepared a humiliating punishment for them

    watercat

    September 22, 2008 at 3:07 pm

  34. Hi Kafirgirl,
    I came across this post from a guy in pakistan who has a few words to say about your post. He seems to be making the same distortions others are making. Maybe you can take a peek. If you have already seen this please ignore the link.

    http://pakistanijew.wordpress.com/category/islam/

    Vani

    September 22, 2008 at 4:42 pm

  35. Watercat, yipes, that is seriously disturbing. That’s the pastor at Palin’s church? The one she goes to voluntarily? Sweet lawsie mercy, I will go jump off a bridge if that woman gets elected.

    Vani, I saw that. He actually emailed me a link. It’s basically regurgitating the exact argument Saki sent me (linked above). I’d like to say I’m surprised, but, uh, *shrug*

    kafirgirl

    September 22, 2008 at 6:29 pm

  36. I like how the other site suggests that you are personally making up the stuff on Moore when it’s listed all over the net. LOL!

    This seems to be what all the fuss is about. To take this and make the argument that has been made is pathetic…….

    http://www.icbh.org/topics/embryology.htm

    Even on wikipedia it says that Galen’s view was widespread at that time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_relation_between_Islam_and_science#Conception_and_inherited_characteristics

    So the rest of the world has been going around with this idea for 500-1000 years, which they figured out (incorrectly) for themselves, but the only possible way in the whole of the universe that someone as stupid as Mo could of heard of it is from god!

    GAD

    September 22, 2008 at 8:33 pm

  37. LOL! Mo was “God’s perfect man” = buttfuckfully ignorant of anything but his own little fantasy. It makes sense, remember that Tree of Knowledge episode? ha

    This is the whole argument in a nutshell. Missing subtitle “How to argue with a rutabaga”

    watercat

    September 22, 2008 at 9:56 pm

  38. Gad, I totally didn’t get that either. I’m pretty sure Professor Moore is well aware that there are people out there who think he’s a charlatan. As for the ideas being widespread at the time — I totally don’t get where Muslims get this isolation idea from. Maybe it’s been repeated enough to where they believe it?

    Watercat, the flour / sugar / eggs / water thing just reminded me of one thing: there’s no mention of eggs in the Quran. Ova, I mean. Apparently the sperm just hangs out for a while and then turns into a baby. It’s a miracle!!

    kafirgirl

    September 22, 2008 at 10:23 pm

  39. If a worman is only one-half of a man, wouldn’t that mean it requires two eggs?

    watercat

    September 22, 2008 at 11:04 pm

  40. Or half a sperm.

    kafirgirl

    September 22, 2008 at 11:13 pm

  41. Why doesn’t the silly book ever mention the rotation and revolution of earth?

    May be the author (Mo) had just learnt heliocentric theory from the greeks and not the geocentric. Or maybe that dumbwitted asshole din’t really care much.

    Husain

    September 24, 2008 at 2:39 am

  42. You know, the more I read about Quran miracles, the more I realize that it’s really fucking easy to take a bunch of super vague verses and turn them into “miracles” using stuff we’ve learned through science. Anything can mean anything if it’s vague enough.

    kafirgirl

    September 24, 2008 at 7:43 am

  43. Most Arab girls think the sun goes around the earth, seriously, as a teenager i remember trying to explain it to them (to fits of giggles at my stupidism).
    Muslims think the earth is flat.
    We was taught that the moon got chopped in half with a sword.
    We was also taught in the madrasa that Younis lived in a whale (the whale’s digestive fluids would have actually dissolved him in about 8 hours).
    Holy Qu’ran denies evolution. Some scientific source!

    jasminefrompakistan

    September 24, 2008 at 3:14 pm

  44. @watercat

    This is just plain stupid. The foolish muslims complain that we take out verses out of context.

    First of all, this verse does not indicate the rotation of earth. Even if by some bloody strech of imagination it does, then reading along with the earlier verse gives a totally different picture:

    027.087
    YUSUFALI: And the Day that the Trumpet will be sounded – then will be smitten with terror those who are in the heavens, and those who are on earth, except such as Allah will please (to exempt): and all shall come to His (Presence) as beings conscious of their lowliness.
    PICKTHAL: And (remind them of) the Day when the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and the earth will start in fear, save him whom Allah willeth. And all come unto Him, humbled.
    SHAKIR: And on the day when the trumpet shall be blown, then those who are in the heavens and those who are in the earth shall be terrified except such as Allah please, and all shall come to him abased.

    027.088
    YUSUFALI: Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed: but they shall pass away as the clouds pass away: (such is) the artistry of Allah, who disposes of all things in perfect order: for he is well acquainted with all that ye do.
    PICKTHAL: And thou seest the hills thou deemest solid flying with the flight of clouds: the doing of Allah Who perfecteth all things. Lo! He is Informed of what ye do.
    SHAKIR: And you see the mountains, you think them to be solid, and they shall pass away as the passing away of the cloud– the handiwork of Allah Who has made every thing thoroughly; surely He is Aware of what you do.

    My understanding is, verse no. 88 refers to the day of judgement (yaum-ul-qiyamah).

    Husain

    September 25, 2008 at 12:29 am

  45. Also, everywhere in the silly book we are told about the sun and moon ‘running their appointed course’. Why is nothing mentioned for earth?

    Husain

    September 25, 2008 at 12:31 am

  46. @ husain. word! I hope you don’t think I agreed with that silly thing.

    Uzza proves that the prophecies of the Koran do indeed come true:
    http://uzzas.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/a-prophecy-fulfilled/

    Uzza

    September 28, 2008 at 11:14 pm

  47. @ Uzza

    Oops! My bad…

    That link is hilarious though!

    Husain

    September 29, 2008 at 1:12 am

  48. Damn! Me & Uzza keep getting our accounts mixed up.
    Darn innertubes.

    watercat

    September 29, 2008 at 3:33 am


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