KafirGirl

We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

7: The Wall Between Heaven and Hell (Part V — More prophets than you can shake a dick at.)

with 115 comments

Digg del.icio.us StumbleUpon Reddit

Did you know that God sent down 123,999 prophets before he sent Mohammed?  Neither did I.  Or at least I didn’t remember it until I read this chapter.  Fuckin’ A.  124,000 prophets.  According to the Quran, the number is 124,000 because God sent one prophet to each nation:

16:36. To every community We have sent an apostle. (saying) “Worship God, and keep away from all other deities.” Thus some of them were guided by God, and ruin was justified on some. Travel over the earth and see what befell those who accused (the apostles) of lies.

Still not sure how they decided that there were 124,000 nations, but that’s the generally accepted number among Muslims.  124K nations = 124k prophets.  God could have probably avoided all that trouble just by showing his fucking face, but hey, I don’t want the mountains to crumble any more than you do.

Only a handful of these 124,000 prophets have l337 status in the Quran.  And out of that handful, there are only 6 who get talked about at any great length:  Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and of course, God’s golden boy, Mohammed.

Chapter 7 features a couple of those other prophets.  As far as I know, they weren’t even recorded outside of the Quran — not that it matters any to most Muslims.

God starts us off with a story most of us are already familiar with.  Check out Noah, ya’ll:

59. We sent Noah to his people, and he said: “O people worship God; you have no other god but He; for I fear the retribution of the great Day may fall on you.”
60. The elders of his people replied: “We see clearly that you have gone astray.”
61. “I have not gone astray, O my people,” he said, “but have been sent by my Lord, the creator of all the worlds.

Three verses in, and already my eyebrows are raised so high that I’m wearing my own forehead as a beret.  Something about the word “astray” smells fishy.  Don’t ask me why, it just does.  I’ve been reading the Quran for nearly 6 weeks now and I’m onto Ahmed Ali’s tricks.  So I looked up a couple of other translations.

A. J. Arberry:
Said the Council of his people, ‘We see thee in manifest error.’

Pickthall:
The chieftains of his people said: Lo! we see thee surely in plain error.

and my favorite:

Yusuf Ali:
The leaders of his people said: “Ah! we see thee evidently wandering (in mind).”

Even in error seems really watered down to me.  I think Yusuf Ali might be closer to the mark when he says “wandering in mind.”  In plain English, the people are saying, “Holy fucking hell, Noah, you’re batshitass crazy.” I can buy that.

62. I bring to you the messages of my Lord, and give you sincere advice, for I know from God what you do not know.
63. Do you wonder that a warning has come to you from your Lord through a man who is one of you, and warns you to take heed for yourselves and fear God? You might be treated with mercy.”

A warning has come to you from your Lord through a man who is one of you. Boy, that sounds awfully familiar.  Where have I come across that before?  Oh, I know:  the entire fucking Quran. This is just another example of Mohammed setting himself up to be on par with the Old Testament prophets.

See, I’m just like Noah.  And his people thought he was crazy too.  But he wasn’t, was he?  He wasn’t crazy.  So I’m not crazy either.  You calling me crazy? Why don’t you come over here and say that?  I’ll fucking kick your ass. YOU’RE the one who’s crazy.  Bitch.

64. But they called him a liar, and We saved him and those with him in the Ark, and drowned the others who rejected Our signs, for they were a people purblind.

Purblind?  Maybe I’m purstupid, but I had to look that word up.  It means partly blind or slow to understand.  PurOK.  Makes sense since God puts a covering over the hearts of anyone who expresses doubt.

Anyway, the gist of the story is this:

  • God sends prophet.
  • Prophet tries to save people.
  • People think prophet is a lunatic.
  • God saves prophet, drowns people.

Next up is a prophet named Hūd.  I did a little research on Hūd.  This might come as a major shock to most of you — seriously, sit down for this — but there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that Hūd and the people of ‘Ad actually existed.  Not that I could find on the internets, anyway.  I tried every keyword search I could think of, and I came across nothing but Muslim websites regurgitating the same bit of cud over and over again.  Other than that?  Nada.  Zip.  Zilch.  Not even a measly Wikipedia page.  Yeah.  I was pretty surprised, too.  Not really.

Anyway, here’s what one Muslim site had to say about Hūd and his peeps:

The people of ‘Ad lived many years in the windswept hills of an area between Yemen and Oman. They were physically well built and renowned for their craftsmanship especially in the construction of tall buildings with lofty towers. They were outstanding among all the nations in power and wealth, which, unfortunately, made them arrogant and boastful. Their political power was held in the hand of unjust rulers, against whom no one dared to raise a voice.

No joke.  I’m not sure where they’re piecing this shit together from because they don’t give any references outside the Quran.  But there you have it.  The people of ‘Ad from somewhere between Yemen and Oman.  Here’s their story:

65. And We sent Hūd, their brother, to the people of ‘Ad. He said: “O you people, worship God, for you have no other god but He. Will you not take heed for yourselves?”
66. The chiefs of his people who were infidels replied: “We find you full of folly, and a liar to boot.”
67. “I am not a fool, O people,” he answered, “but have been sent by the Lord of all the worlds.

Sound familiar??  It’s Noah version 2.0!  Only this time, his people think he’s a stupid liar.

68. I bring to you the messages of my Lord. I am your sincere friend.
69. Do you wonder that a warning has come to you from your Lord through a man who is one of you and warns you? Remember, He made you leaders after the people of Noah, and gave you a greater increase in your stature. So think of the favours of God; you may haply be blessed.”

Hūd does a little name dropping there:  Remember what happened to Noah?  Don’t piss God off or he’ll drown your ass, too!

70. They answered: “Have you come to say to us that we should worship only one God, abandoning those our ancestors had worshipped? If so, bring on us what you threaten us with, if what you say is true.”
71. He replied: “You have already been beset with punishment and the wrath of God. Why dispute with me about names invented by you and your ancestors for which no sanction was sent down? So wait (for what is to come), I am waiting with you.”
72. Then We saved him and those on his side by Our grace, and destroyed to the very last those who rejected Our signs and denied the truth.

God destroys everyone except Hūd.  He doesn’t really mention how he destroyed them, just that they were destroyed. Mysterious!  Chapter 11 is actually titled Hūd, so I’m pretty sure we’ll get more details on his story later on.

After Hūd comes Saleh and his people, the Thamud.  Unlike the ‘Ad, at least these guys have a Wikipedia page:

According to the Qur’an, Saleh was a Semite born nine generations after Noah and the flood; he is described as having been born and raised among the Thamud, a group of people who lived in an area between Palestine and the Hijaz. The Thamud are said to have lived in stone houses carved into mountains, and to have worshipped idols made from stone.

They supposedly lived in an area between Palestine and the Hijaz (central Saudi Arabia).  Not too far from where Mohammed pops up later on. Check this out:

Ooooh ahhhhh!  How amazing is that?  I don’t know if the people who made these temples and houses were called the Thamud or, hell, whether the Thamud actually existed.  But, holy shit, that’s just fucking cool looking.  What kind of rent you think they’d charge for a place like that?

73. We sent to Thamud their brother Saleh. “O you people,” said he, “worship God, for you have no other god but He. Clear proof has come to you already from your Lord, and this she-camel of God is the token for you. Leave her free to graze upon God’s earth, and do not molest her lest a grievous punishment should befall you.

Whaaaa?  A camel in the Middle East is a clear proof from God?  Seriously??  I looked up camel and she-camel in the index of my Quran, and found nothing but this verse.  So I took to the internets.

Here’s how it all went down.  Saleh’s people were kind of cheating on God.  They knew all about him, but they weren’t willing to ditch all the other gods for him.  Saleh didn’t like that one bit, so he starting bitching them out for it.  So these people ask Saleh to ask God to send down some evidence.  How very rational of them!

I’m tickled fucking pink by that.  Why?  Because it’s still happening.  It’s hilarious how, say, some Christians can be the most rational, logical people in the world when it comes to calling out Islam’s contradictions and errors.  There are tons of Christian websites out there that debunk Islam and do a pretty decent job of it.  These people can take a good, long look at that other religion and wonder how anyone could buy in to that load of bullshit.  And yet they can’t see the very same bullshit in their own fucking religion.

And it isn’t just the Christians who are doing this.  It’s the same sad story with Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and all the other religions out there that claim to be the one truth.  Pot.  Kettle.  Black.

Anyway, these people asked for some proof of God’s existence.  This is what they said:

Then pointing at a rock, they demanded: “Ask your Lord to make a she camel, which must be 10 months pregnant, tall and attractive, issue from the rock for us.”

I died.  I fucking died laughing.  And then I resurrected myself just so I could die laughing again.  These people wanted God to turn a boulder into a tall, attractive, pregnant camel.  No joke.  I lifted that from a Muslim site.  Type Saleh and she-camel into Google and you’ll come up with the same thing with different wording.  Also someone wrote a song called Saleh’s She-Camel which is sung to the tune of Sally the Camel. You seriously cannot make this shit up.

Anyway, Saleh makes them promise that they won’t fuck shit up if God does this little magic trick.  They promise.  So God turns the boulder into a tall, attractive, pregnant camel.  Oh, and the camel does tricks too:

There are a number of ancient accounts of this camel and its miraculous nature. It was said that the she camel was miraculous because a rock in the mountain split open and it came forth from it, followed by its young offspring. Other accounts said that the she camel used to drink all the water in the wells in one day, and no other animals could approach the water. Still others claimed that the she camel produced milk sufficient for all the people to drink, on the same day that it drank all the water, leaving none for them.

The fuck?  It drank up all their water and left none for the people or other animals?  And they had to drink camel milk?  Bleah!  That camel sounds like a fucking asshole.  And I guess Saleh’s people agree with me, because they killed it.

Look, I found even found pictures:

Stop worshiping the box or I’mma have to shootchoo!
Nah, I’m fucking witchoo.  Iz my finger.

OMFG she’s hot!

I fucking hate camel milk, man.  Drank that shit every day in ‘Nam.
Me, too.  Fuck this camel.

So that’s the story of the she-camel.  Moving right along:

74. Remember, how you were made leaders after the people of ‘Ad, and were settled on the land so that you could construct on the plains palaces, and carve dwellings out of mountains. So think of the favours of God, and do not act with corruption in the land.”

Remember what happened to those ‘Ad people who remembered what happened to Noah’s people?  Yeah.  That could be you.

75. The chiefs among the people who were arrogant towards the weaker ones among them who believed, asked: “Do you really know that Saleh has been sent by his Lord?” They said: “Indeed we believe in the message he has brought.”
76. Those who were arrogant answered: “We do not believe in what you believe.”
77. Then they hamstrung the she-camel and rebelled against the command of their Lord, and said: “Bring, O Saleh, on us the affliction you promise, if you are one of the sent ones.”

Man.  I hope they at least ate the camel.  What’s the point of killing it if you’re not going to eat it?  I would be a horrible vegetarian.  And probably also a horrible serial killer.

78. Then they were seized by an earthquake, and lay overturned on the ground in their homes in the morning.
79. Saleh turned away from them and said: “O my people, I conveyed to you the message of my Lord and warned you; but you do not like those who wish you well.”

So God sent down an earthquake and killed everyone except Saleh, who turned around and said, “I told you so.”  And then he grilled up that she-camel and ate the whole thing himself.  OK, I made up that last bit.  I seriously just hate seeing perfectly good meat go to waste.

By the way, the earthquake didn’t manage to destroy all those gorgeous temples carved into the boulders.  You can check out some more pictures on Wikipedia.

Next up is Lot.  You guys know Lot.  He’s the one who tossed his daughters out to be raped by a mob.  He makes a brief appearance:

80. And We sent Lot, who said to his people: “Why do you commit this lecherous act which none in the world has committed before?
81. In preference to women you satisfy your lust with men. Indeed you are a people who are guilty of excess.”

OK, first off I call bullfuckingshit on that whole lecherous act which none in the world has committed before thing.  Seriously?  Seriously?? This is the first time ever that someone wanted a little man-on-man action?  The first time since man first realized he could stick his dick in something and wiggle it around to feel fantastic?  Really?  For some reason I find that incredibly hard to believe.  And don’t give me that, “It’s unnatural” bullshit either.  Everybody’s doing it.  The birds, the bees, and over 450 other species that have been documented having gay sex.

82. His people made no answer, and only said: “Drive them out of the city. They profess to be pure.”
83. But We saved him and his family, except for his wife who was one of those who stayed behind.
84. And We rained down on them a shower (of Stones). So witness the end of sinners!

Lot and his daughters escape while everyone except gets stoned to death.  Even Lot’s wife.  She must have stayed behind to watch all those dudes getting it on.  Whatever.  I can’t judge.  It’s not like she had Cinemax to turn to.

And last but not least we have Shu’aib.  According to Wikipedia, Shu’aib is usually thought of as the Jethro character from the Old Testament.  Yusuf Ali, King Apologist, doesn’t agree with that.  Me?  I’m ig’nant and have never even heard of Jethro, so I can’t say.  But Shu’aib’s story is awfully familiar.  Emphasis on the awfully.

85. Remember, We sent to Midian their brother Shu’aib. “O you people,” he said, “worship God, for you have no other god but He. Clear proof has come to you from your Lord; so give in full measure and full weight; do not keep back from people what is theirs, and do not corrupt the land after it has been reformed. This is best for you if you believe.

I was a little confused on the whole Midian thing.  I mean, wasn’t Midian a person?  Well, it turns out God actually meant the Midianites.  Oops!  Everyone makes mistakes, I guess.  Even the infallible, all-knowing, most-everything God.

According to Wikipedia, the Midianites probably lived in Cleveland, Ohio.  Oh, I kid, I kid.  They lived in the Middle East.  What a coincidence!  That’s where Noah and Hūd and Saleh and Lot lived!  And here I was expecting at least one of these prophets to be in Antartica or South Africa or Australia or Mexico.  You know.  Because one was sent to every fucking community that ever existed. 

86. Do not lie in ambush to intimidate and divert from the path of God those who believe in Him, nor seek obliquity in it. Remember the day when you were few and He increased your numbers. So consider the fate of those who were evil.
87. If some of you believe what has been sent through me, and some of you do not, have patience until God decide between us, for He is the best of all judges.”

Déjà fucking vu.  I bet you’ve already figured out what’s coming up next:

88. The arrogant leaders of the people replied: “We shall drive you away from our land, O Shu’aib, and those who are with you, unless you come back to your faith.” But he remarked: “Even if we are disgusted with it?
89. We shall only be guilty of blaspheming God if we accept your way after the people of Noah, and gave you a greater increase in your stature. So think of the favours of God; you may haply be blessed.”
90. The chiefs among his people who did not believe said (to them): “If you follow Shu’aib and his way you will surely be ruined.”

Yup.  He tried to warn them and they didn’t listen.  Know what’s coming up next?  Yeah you do!

91. Then they were seized by an earthquake, and lay overturned on the ground in their homes in the morning.

An earthquake!  And guess who died?  Guess!!  Take a wild fucking guess!

92. They who called Shu’aib a liar (disappeared) as though they had never existed; and those who called Shu’aib a liar were the ones who were ruined!

Whoo!  Everyone except Shu’aib!  And they disappeared almost as if they’d never existed.  Know why?  Because they probably never did!

93. So Shu’aib turned away from them and said: “O people, I conveyed to you the message of my Lord, and warned you. (But you paid no heed). How can I grieve for a people who do not believe?”

Shu’aib says, “I told you so,” and flips his people the bird.  Yeah.  That’s original.  And here are the verses that tie everything together with a neat little bow:

94. There is not a region to which We sent a prophet and did not inflict upon its people adversity and hardship so that they may submit.
95. But when We changed hardship to ease, and they rose and prospered, (they forgot Our favours) and said: “Our ancestors had also known suffering and joy.” So We caught them unawares.
96. But if the people of these regions had believed and feared God, We would surely have showered on them blessings of the heavens and the earth; but they only denied, and We punished them for their deeds.

Hey Mohammed.  Your persecution complex is showing.

That’s right.  Mohammed was having a tough time.  People were calling him crazy, refusing to believe his cockamamie ideas, and boofuckinghoo, not converting to his religion.  So what did Mohammed do?  He set it up so all these other prophets had the same problems.  Each prophet warned his people about how God would wipe them all out, but nobody listened.  And then God pelted them with stones, drowned them, sent an earthquake, or when his imagination ran a little low, he plain old destroyed them.

Mohammed used this as a warning to the people who didn’t buy in to his bullshit.  Obey me or God will destroy you like he destroyed the people of Noah, the people of Hūd, the people of Saleh and Lot and Shu’aib.  Obey.  Or die.

You know what?  I’ll go with die. God can feel free to strike me with lightening.  I’m not really doing anything right now.  Here.  I’ll even open up the window for him.  I’ll sit here with my feel soaking in my Sharper Image heated foot spa and everything.  I’m ready.  Any minute now.  …any minute.  Yeah.

Coming up next:  chapter 8, Spoils of War. Yeah.  That should give me an aneurysm for sure.  Stay tuned!


Here’s some other chapter 7 stuff worth mentioning, but not worth an entire post:

  • Check out what God does to an entire village of Jews:

    166. When they persisted in doing what they had been forbidden, We said to them: “Become (like) apes despised.”

    Knock out that Ahmed Ali parenthetical (like), and you see that God turns the Jews into apes.  Again.  The fuck is with this guy and his apes?

  • Here’s some more animal fun:

    175. Relate to them the plight of the man whom We gave Our signs, but he passed them by, so that Satan came after him, and he went astray.
    176. We wished to exalt him, but he loved baseness and followed his lust. His likeness is that of a dog who hangs out his tongue if you drive him away, and still hangs it out if you leave him alone. Such is the case of the people who deny Our signs. Narrate this history to them; they may haply reflect.

    Oh I’m haply reflecting, alright.  This man followed his lust and he started resembling a dog.  His tongue stuck out all the time, even when he was all alone.  Thath whath happeth whaw yaw fallah ya luth.

  • You know how I get pissed when God switches from first person to third person?  Well this block of verses made me shit out my intestines.  It was messy.  The bolds are mine:

    182. We shall punish those who deny Our revelations slowly in a way that they will not know.
    183. I will just give them respite. My plan is certainly invincible.
    184. Have they not bethought themselves their companion is not mad? He is only a plain admonisher.
    185. Have they not contemplated the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and everything created by God, (to educe) that perhaps their own term is drawing to a close? In what lore after this would they then believe? leaves them to wander perplexed in their wickedness.

    186. Whosoever God allows to go astray has none to show him the way, for He leaves them to wander perplexed in their wickedness.

    We, our, I, my, God, God, He, KafirGirl’s head ‘splodes.

  • This is by far my favorite verse in chapter 7:

    203. And when you do not bring a (Qur’anic) verse to them, they say: “Why don’t you make one up?” Say: “I follow only what my Lord reveals to me.” These (revelations) are an evident proof from your Lord, and a guidance and grace for those who believe.

    Oh, you silly people, how could you even think to ask Mohammed such a thing?  He can’t just make this shit up.  The invisible skyman makes this shit up, and then an angel comes flying down to meet with Mohammed and whisper everything into his ear.  He can’t just go around making things up all willy nilly.  That would just be stupid.

Advertisements

Written by kafirgirl

August 13, 2008 at 9:33 pm

Posted in Quran

Tagged with

115 Responses

Subscribe to comments with RSS.

  1. That camel song is one of the funniest things I’ve read in ages (this blog excluded, of course).
    “Saleh’s she-camel was eaten,
    Bad men ate her up.
    Allah sent a mighty earthquake,
    To crush the Thamoud. ”
    At least, I thought it was funny until I saw it came from a website called islamicschoolresources.com. What a jolly song for the kiddies – “God sends camel, camel drains the only well for miles, people eat camel, god sends genocidal earthquake , la, la, la.”
    I guess we should all be steering clear of the delicious recipes to be found here : http://theoldfoodie.blogspot.com/2007/07/eating-camel.html

    Lance

    August 13, 2008 at 10:30 pm

  2. Ya know, I’ve been going about this writing thing all wrong. Here I am, trying to write each story fresh and new and with different plots. I should just write the same one 50 billion times, bind ’em together and call them a holy book.

    Yep, his persecution complex is showing.

    And Lance is right. That song is funny until you think about little kids singing it. Sweet Jeebus on a pogo stick, they have little kids singing songs about genocide!

    Gregory

    August 14, 2008 at 12:09 am

  3. Bwahahah….the Biblical Lot is far more entertaining. Wife gets turned into salt by a vengeful God, and then Lot’s two daughters, upset their husbands died without impregnating them, got their dad drunk and asked him to inseminate them.

    That’s right, after one two many wines, Lot knocked up both his daughters. (Not just incestuous, but fertile!)

    About the location of the prophets….isn’t odd how Allah never sent any prophets to China, the most populous, advanced, powerful and richest country in the world at the time? Seems a bit stupid to keep having prophets pop up in shitholes.

    Oh and seriously, I have no idea why Arabs are so fond of camels, female or otherwise. Makes me think of modern Saudis and the camel beauty contests. (It’s a big business for us Australians selling Saudis disease free camels. Seriously…I dunno, and frankly, I don’t want know.)

    Quentin George

    August 14, 2008 at 2:47 am

  4. For more stories like that of Lot –> http://www.cracked.com/article_16546_6-raunchiest-most-depraved-sex-acts-from-bible.html

    Well, all of these prophets seem to be saying the same stuff with the same results. And if Mo does not include any mention of the other 123,9xx prophets I think that it is safe to assume that they did not add anything new to their pitch speechs. Mo does not either, for what I have inferred through Kafirgirl, so, what makes him the numero 1 profeta of all time? Just being the “last one”?

    Brg

    PS.: Quentin, you were right about my comment in the previous post. It was 3am when I wrote that, and facts seem to take a life of their own in my head that late (early?) in the night,

    brg

    August 14, 2008 at 3:55 am

  5. “Oh, you silly people, how could you even think to ask Mohammed such a thing? He can’t just make this shit up. The invisible skyman makes this shit up, and then an angel comes flying down to meet with Mohammed and whisper everything into his ear. He can’t just go around making things up all willy nilly. That would just be stupid. ”
    Yes. See all the things following “Say”. U will find these things can be said by humans.Nothing out of the world to conclude that it be from sky-daddy.

    Anand

    August 14, 2008 at 5:24 am

  6. KG, that pic of the rock, u know what that is? That’s Maidan Saleh in the Hijaz and it was built by the Nabateans, who built Petra in Jordan. And then we got Saleh’s camel, huh uh. The Thamud was the Nabateans- traders, and their Queen Zonobia revolted against Rome, they were famous in history. BY Muhammad’s time all that was left was their ruins- and Mo grafts onto them these legends.
    Stuff about the people of Ad, this is in Hadramautin Yemen and how did god most likely destroy them, just a dam breaking, nothing more than that.
    U got 2 things hapening here;
    1) Arabs trying to explain half remembered but real historical events, earthquakes, floods. Lot… and yeah, the Dead Sea just happens to be full of SALT.
    2) Arabs trying to explain ciilizations that fell apart and left only their ruins.
    I don’t know if i am right, but the more u study about the region, u kind of see that Islam is a attempt to make sense of the world around, done by people who was on the outside, the onlookers, the Arab tribes.
    It’s like if America and world civilization is wiped out by a comet, then fire and flood, but in 1,000 years, the descendants of survivors, small groups, find the ruins of New York and the Statue of Liberty, but u know, they got no idea what the fuck it’s all about. One guy sees it might make a useful tale and says,
    “The mighty people of the great city by the sea that rose like a mountain, humbled, rent asunder, the woman in the spiked crown holding a false book. You worshipped the woman in the spiked crown and her whispering lies and your creator smashed u with fire, flood and decimation. The deceiver in her crown of idolatory stands abandoned, a warning, though you have little knowledge of it.”
    That’s how it began.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 5:46 am

  7. Quentin, it’s normal that stuff with camels, cos this is just culture, also in Pakistan and Rajastan u will see the same. It’s just cultural, like me, i love love love love love ponies so much, really i do, even at age 26, i got a book of the most beautiful ponies, its like that, normal in all ways.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 5:50 am

  8. Lance, I bet those kids just have no idea. But I guess I didn’t when I sang “London Bridge is falling down.” That’s kind of morbid, too, only it’s not God knocking down the bridge to kill everyone.

    Gregory, me too. From now on, I’m just going to cut and paste this post with a different title. Originality is overrated!

    QG, China would have been so ideal. I mean, they would have spread the hell out of that religion. But no. God only likes Arabs. As for camels, I think it’s a heritage thing. It’s the same as falcons in the United Arab Emirates and other Arab countries. Sort of a national symbol. I went to a camel race in Dubai, and that was fucking incredible. I had no idea those awkward animals could go so fast.

    brg, Mo’s claim to fame was indeed the very last one. But Muslims will also tell you that the reason he’s the last is because Islam wasn’t sent to Mohammed just for the Arabs. It’s for the entire world. No need for a new prophet. Know what I think? I think he was the jealous type. He actually made it so that none of his wives could remarry after he died. He’d be the last to touch ’em. And, likewise, he made it so if you leave the religion, you can be killed. It’s the last religion you’ll ever have. Last last last. But that’s just my opinion as I read this thing.

    Hope that helped and didn’t just confuse you further. I haven’t had my morning coffee yet, and I’m kind of a tragedy in the mornings.

    Anand, “Nothing out of the world to conclude that it be from sky-daddy.” But…but….but the Quran is the most beautiful thing ever written! If you think you’re sooooo smart, why don’t you try writing even a verse as good as something in the Quran?? *Fart*

    Jasmine, I’m not publishing your last comment because it quickly escalated into a personal attack. First off, you completely misconstrued what Lance said. He never said jack shit that even hinted at talking about moderate Muslims. He never “freaked out” over a nursery rhyme. And he definitely never said this nursery rhyme is a threat to education. In fact he didn’t say much of anything that you’re accusing him of saying.

    He simply said this: the song is fucking hilarious until you realize it’s about people killing and eating a camel and then God wiping them out with an earthquake. Pretty fucked up subject matter for a child to be singing about.

    And he’s right. It is a bizarre song about divine genocide. How is that white privilege? I’m not sure what you took so personally about his message, but not mine considering I posted that link for everyone to go laugh at. Either way, you’re absolutely off base and out of line. Not cool.

    kafirgirl

    August 14, 2008 at 8:17 am

  9. I still think God must pick his prophets like aliens pick their abductees:

    Find the craziest, smelliest guy out in the middle of nowhere, tell him a load of bull that no one will believe, and then re-release him to tell his tale.

    Never fails!

    (Come on, see if you can work out the commonality between Mohammed’s divine revelations and Antonio Villas Boas abduction story.)

    Quentin George

    August 14, 2008 at 8:29 am

  10. To be fair Jasmine, I never got the whole horse/pony thing either. Probably from having to grow up on a farm – spend enough time around their shit, and you start to hate horses with a passion.

    Quentin George

    August 14, 2008 at 8:34 am

  11. ok, kafir Girl, it’s like this, it’s no more bizarre and about genocide than say british songs i got taught like, “Ring o’ ring o poses a tissue- a tissue- we all fall down,” is a horrible creep-out about mass death (the plague). In fact, most western nursery rhymes have horrible origins. Here’s the problem, westerners then see our kids singing about something from our culture and see it as something that can be judged by a different standard. That’s pretty ironic given that the school doing something like that would be a moderate Muslim school- obviously. And shouldn’t we be supporting that?
    About Lance, i got nothing more to add, so it’s ok, but i am ready to stand up to defend Pakistanis, this is sure, against racist ennabling attitudes. I got no dealings with personages like him anyhow.
    And me own view of the little song, it’s just a lovely little song and it’s nothing bad, it’s nice also, and just sad that people are against even a little kids song nowadays, so u think he’s right, me, no, and there we have it. I mean is there a button someone should press and Muslims should just disappear, is that it?
    It exactly reminds me of the whole furore of the Islamic class in a UK school last month when the white kids got kicked out of the class and the racist UK groups was jumping up and down screaming,”See what the Pakis have done now, they kick white kids out of a mixed school cos they refuse to worship Allah.” Er no, that’s not what happened at all. See KG, u got to understand, there are personages of ill will seriously out to trash Pakistanis in Europe and push us into the sea (in their dreams), and they are seizing on even the most tiny issues. Now am i very sensitive to this? Yes, yes i am, but if there’s any more Pakistanis from the UK around- i promise u they will back me up on this.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 8:48 am

  12. “But…but….but the Quran is the most beautiful thing ever written! If you think you’re sooooo smart, why don’t you try writing even a verse as good as something in the Quran?? *Fart*”

    Yup. Can v ever write a verse as stupid as this:
    [019:026] “……. say, ‘I have vowed a fast to (God) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'”
    Angel asks Mary to SAY that SHE IS NOT ALLOWED to SPEAK

    Can v ever write a verse like this?
    [016:051] God has said: “Take not (for worship) two gods: for He is just One God: then fear Me (and Me alone).”

    “HE is just One God.So, FEAR ME.”

    NO. WHATEVER WE WRITE WILL MAKE MORE SENSE THAN WHAT ALLAH WRITES.

    Anand

    August 14, 2008 at 8:53 am

  13. Zenobia was the queen of Palmyra at about the same time as the Nabateans were doing their carving thing. Not too far away from Petra but not the same.

    Oz

    August 14, 2008 at 9:03 am

  14. Oh I’m well aware what “Ring around the rosies” is about. And I thought it was just as bizarre and creepy when I found that out. Know what would make it creepier? If that rhyme was about God sending down the plague to wipe everyone off the face of the planet.

    I’m not going to go so far as to say that only moderate schools would teach that song. I don’t know that for certain. I don’t know that there aren’t any conservative Muslim schools that segregate boys and girls and teach them to sing that song. That would be assuming too much.

    For the record, I never said anything about being against kids singing a song. And nobody said a damn thing about pressing any buttons to make Muslims disappear. You’re reading waaaaaay too much into shit that isn’t even there. Not every statement someone makes is taking sides for or against Islam.

    Maybe I’m totally wrong, but I think you’re being overly sensitive on this one.

    kafirgirl

    August 14, 2008 at 9:05 am

  15. Free Education Materials- including ‘The Song of Noah,’ where God does the water world thing.
    http://gardenofpraise.com/biblsong.htm

    just sayin’
    but yes, racism in the UK does leave u oversensitized maybe.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 9:32 am

  16. That song reminds me of the tale of the “Golden Goose,” u know like aesop’s fables. They ate the camel and lost all it’s benefits, like endless milk. Maybe that’s the background to the aya even, just a common sense tale in essence- don’t kill today what u can live off for years. Isn’t that why cows are sacred in India, just cos they’re useful? And then Allah came along and once again, something that might have been quite a useful way of thinking in the desert, gets reinterpreted and those nuggets of common sense are lost forever.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 9:44 am

  17. Um Jasmine, you should know by now that I think Christianity is just as fucking stupid as Islam. That includes their fairy tales and their sing-alongs. And, oh their fucking God, don’t even get me started on Jesus bands and all the asshats standing around with their hands raised to the sky.

    kafirgirl

    August 14, 2008 at 10:20 am

  18. Oz, Zenobia was in Palmyra, but Palmyra was part of the Nabatean civilization including Petra and all the way into the Hijaz to Maidan Saleh, which is the cool rock carving pic KG posted…. (think Saleh’s Camel and a ancient Nabatean rock carving called Maidan Saleh).
    So it was a trading empire and went from Syria all the way to north west Saudi Arab.
    And get this, this ancient city is cursed, Muslims mostly avoid it and won’t go there. Why? Cos this beautiful and ancient city of antiquity is CURSED in the Qu’ran, this is in Sura of THE ROCK.
    This is like “Planet of the Apes,” really it is, like when the founding monkey god “The Lawgiver,” cursed the land around where proof of man’s supremacy lay.
    And the Qu’ran does EXACTLY the same, with a splendid, earlier kafir civilization. Can’t way to Kafir gets to the Sura of the Rock.
    And just so Muslims get it for sure that this former civilization were inferior- up comes the story of Saleh’s camel, cos get’s what’s another name for the Nabteans- THE THAMUD.
    Hell, i feel like Taylor when he screamed out, “You knew all along you ape bastaaaaards.”

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 10:21 am

  19. ha ha, Kafira, it’s all lies, religious lies, all of it!

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 10:22 am

  20. I’m surprised KG didn’t pick out 184, where they wonder if Mo “is not mad” AR Omar taranslates that as “has no vestige of insanity “

    Dogs sweat through their tongues, so if the dogs tongue hangs out it means he’s hot, fer chrissakes. You’d have to be insane to make a connection with lust. oh. nevermind.

    It’s driving me crazy, who the hell is talking in v196:My saviour is God. ? The only way I can make sense of it is if everything from 175 on through to ?? is god telling Mo what to say. But the stupid clouds up my monitor and I can’t make out the end. Any other ideas?

    And he’s talking about the book again: v204 specifically says to listen to the Koran that doesn’t exist yet. My guess here is that in Arabic, ‘Koran’ means “recitation”, right? So this could refer to listening to an oral recitation of Mo’s latest ravings, instead of ‘Koran the book.’ Maybe?

    watercat

    August 14, 2008 at 12:09 pm

  21. Watercat, great catch!

    7:184. Have they not bethought themselves their companion is not mad? He is only a plain admonisher.

    So much of this shit would just slip through the cracks if you guys weren’t paying attention. High five to teamwork!

    As for who’s talking in verse 196, it’s Mohammed:

    7:195. Say to them: “Call your compeers, and work out a plot against me, and do not give me time.
    7:196. My saviour is God who has revealed this Book; and He protects those who are upright;

    Unless your book is missing that “Say to them” which, quite honestly, wouldn’t surprise me one bit. A lot of that shit gets added on by whoever is doing the translating to help the Quran out a little, know what I mean?

    kafirgirl

    August 14, 2008 at 12:21 pm

  22. We should so get college credit for reading this blog. My classes never taught me so much. Commenters here just KNOW so fucking much. High five to teamwork, yeah!

    I’m using the Ahmed Ali translation on the Online Quran Project; and no, it doesn’t have “say to them”. There seems to be more than one Ahmed Ali floating around. sheesh.

    Also, I call bullshit on this whole camel business. Every translation just says “hamstring”. Why would desert nomads, whose whole lives depend on camels, hamstring one? It doesn’t make sense. Whatever they did it went against Saleh’s advice to leave it free to graze, which would be like telling me to leave a ’55 Chevy parked in the garage. Nomads would catch that sucker and put it to use. Eat it? Not too sensible either. So another Arabic question. The word [sor] apparently means ‘wound, hamstring’, but also “to keep back an animal by tying up the foreleg”. That would be a perfectly likely thing to do. The two words end in a different letter, but they could have been written down wrong. (??)

    watercat

    August 14, 2008 at 12:54 pm

  23. Weird! I’ve been getting my Ahmed Ali text from this website: http://arthurwendover.com/arthurs/koran/koran-ahmed-ali10.html

    I like the way they lay out their numbers like 11. as opposed to (11) and it’s an easier cut & paste because it requires less editing on my part. I’m lazy like that. OQP is where I check the other translations, though, so I should probably just give in.

    Anyway, I don’t have my hard copy on me right now, but I’ll check it out when I get home to see if “say to them” is in there. It could just be a versioning issue — one site could be using an earlier edition of AA’s translation.

    About the camel thing, the generally accepted story is that they killed and ate it. Not that it means a lot since the generally accepted view is that there’s an invisible man in the sky watching us all the time. Your idea that they may have tethered the camel makes sense. Bitch was drinking up all the water! But then if God killed the entire village just for tethering her, that’s a pretty fucking harsh punishment.

    P.S. I totally don’t say it enough: thanks to everyone who comments, corrects my mistakes and catches shit I missed. I’m learning so much about all 3 Abrahamic religions thanks to ya’ll. High fives all around.

    kafirgirl

    August 14, 2008 at 1:09 pm

  24. “Ask your Lord to make a she camel, which must be 10 months pregnant, tall and attractive, issue from the rock for us.”

    Out of all the things you could ask for? I guess the case for, if there is one, would be the milk (ew), and the meat… for which you’d… have to kill it. And I’d hate to cast aspersions about the necessity of having a “pretty” camel while alone in the desert with a bunch of other dudes.

    Even so, it sounds like a Monty Python sketch:

    John Cleese: “You’ve got a god? Prove it!”
    Terry Gilliam: “Okay, how?”
    Michael Palin: “Make a… a CAMEL!”
    John Cleese: “A GIRL camel!”
    Graham Chapman: “A pregnant one!”
    Eric Idle: “And make her PRETTY!”
    (the rest stare at Eric Idle)
    “Uh… I mean, you know. Reasonably attractive. For a camel.”

    Sarah Beedoo

    August 14, 2008 at 1:19 pm

  25. Sarah, you fucking win, lady. x10. I laughed so hard I almost cried.

    kafirgirl

    August 14, 2008 at 1:35 pm

  26. OMG, Sarah, I peed my pants laughing.

    They must have been thinking of you, Kafirgirl, in v180 where it says don’t bug people who cuss. LOL!

    One more—What’s with the fish trick in v163? As I understand, god made it so there were no fish except for on the sabbath. People could either break the sabbath or starve, and when they decided to go fishing so they could eat, god kicked their asses: What kind of sadistic fucken prick does that?

    watercat

    August 14, 2008 at 1:37 pm

  27. Kafir Girl, i can help with ure question….
    Aya 60: astray, in error or wandering mind?
    This revolves around one Arabi word – dalalahu.
    But error, error in Arabi is simply ‘ghultan’ which is like we say in Urdu- ‘ghalti’. Here is the actual Arabi from Holy Qu’ran-
    قَالَ الْمَلأُ مِن قَوْمِهِ إِنَّا لَنَرَاكَ فِي ضَلاَلٍ مُّبِي
    Now it is the second to last word on the far left which is dalalahu- and and i can tell u for sure, most certainly, that yes, Quran is not using ‘ghultan’…… but dalalahu is classical Arabi for error, Kanzul Iman’s translation is also telling error, so error is what is meant here and repeated also in aya 59, 60 and 61m same Arabi word- , which in Urdu is ghaltiضَلاَلٍ

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 1:51 pm

  28. Hey all –

    I think that the Noah-flood song and the camel song have more in common than Ring around the Rose. (It’s Ashes, ashes by the way, a reference to the pyres) The nursery rhyme was/is a popular culture way of remembering an event, whereas the two “childrens'” religious songs are adult constructs designed to indoctrinate.

    Robin

    August 14, 2008 at 1:52 pm

  29. “What kind of sadistic fucken prick does that?” – Mo?

    I mean apart from the fucking river with gardens from rooftops, the entire text has been about punishment and all the various types of sado-masochism. This reads like a torture manual. fucking bullshit.

    Shashi

    August 14, 2008 at 2:00 pm

  30. Robin, yes, the nursurey rhymes are secular and refer to long forgotten political tensions (Mary mary quite contrary like is Mary Tudor, for example), so they don’t mention god. That’s good. But didn’t western kids used to sing hymns in school assembly that were full of god stuff? I think they did, cos i remember when i was 7 in me first school they had a orange singing book and me dad got permission for me not to attend (then i changed school to all Pakistani kids, and then i left UK), but i am not exactly clear as such on what they do. What about this, “Jesus wants me for a sunbeam a sunbeam a sunbeam etc etc?”
    How do i remember that? I do not know, but it’s in me head somehow like half forgotten shadows.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 2:08 pm

  31. oh my god i remember it, i do so, they used to sing this, i got it now, “At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, every tongue is telling, king of glory now… Crown him as ure master, in temptations hour”
    I don’t know more.
    I remember this one, this hymn, “. Far round the world, those chilren praise ure name.Still there are lands, where none have seen his face, children whose hearts have never known HIS joy.”
    Yes, i when i heard that i remember thinking…. ‘that’s me.’
    And this one, also, i remember it, “Morning has broken on the first morning, black has spoken, on the first day, praise for creation, praise every morning, morning has broken, like the first day.’
    Is anyone here British? I am Pakistani but british in all ways (got me Uk passport also), does anyone else remember like this, cos this is what we did in me shcool before i got moved.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 2:14 pm

  32. sorry that’s blackbird has spoken….

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 2:16 pm

  33. “all the worlds.”

    The verses says the above a couple of times, is it referring to other planets?

    “Drank that shit every day in ‘Nam.”

    That cartoon was so damn funny!

    The slaughter of the Midianites in the bible is #one on my list of why god is fucked. In it god tells Moses to wipe out the Midianites then kill all of the “little” boys, women who have ever known a man (pregnant ones included) and only keep the virgin girls for them selfs. They got 32,000 virgins, based on that and other battle details the estimate is that they killed 90,000+ women and boys. They then divided the virgins up among the men who fought along with the other animals they took. Guess why they wanted little virgin girls………………

    Sorry, but ring round the rosie is more likely urban legend then truth.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_around_the_rosie

    GAD

    August 14, 2008 at 2:21 pm

  34. Robin, good point — I concur.

    Shashi, “This reads like a torture manual.” Exactly! And as someone else commented, some parts read like a VCR manual.

    Gad, I’m not sure it’s referring to other planets. I thought it meant all the worlds as in all the nations. I checked some other translations:

    A. J. Arberry: (61) Said he, ‘My people, there is no error in me; but I am a Messenger from the Lord of all Being.’

    Pickthall: (61) He said: O my people! There is no error in me, but I am a messenger from the Lord of the Worlds.

    Yusuf Ali: (61) He said: “O my people! No wandering is there in my (mind): on the contrary I am a messenger from the Lord and Cherisher of the worlds!

    George Sale: (61) He replied, O my people, there is no error in me; but I am a messenger from the Lord of all creatures.

    J. M. Rodwell: (61) He said, “There is no error in me, O my people! but I am a messenger from the Lord of the Worlds.

    Qaribullah: (61) ‘I am not in error, my nation, ‘ he replied. ‘I am a Messenger from the Lord of the Worlds

    Confusing, right?

    kafirgirl

    August 14, 2008 at 2:35 pm

  35. Huh, ok. That ‘s interesting. I will check out those references. Watch Ring-around turn out to be some pagan thing that we’ve all been indoctinated with for years. It’s really about sacrificing a virgin to the bog . . .

    As for hymn singing in schools, I think that the UK and the US differ in that. In the US, we don’t typically sing hymns in school, unless that school is private. (Actually, i should speak for the Northeast where I live. I have heard some horror stories from other parts of the country.) And it would be inappropriate to have children do so. There is a lot of appropriate music to sing in school. Wow, that sounds prim. I work in schools and I as an atheist I try to be pretty conscious of these things.

    Robin

    August 14, 2008 at 2:55 pm

  36. God didn’t slaughter the Midianites all that good, because in the very next chapter he’s exterminating them again in another war. At that they got off better than the Amalekites, who get killed off three or four times in the Bible.

    Regarding the numbers given, 90,000 dead at some pissant tribal encounter is a crock of shit. Total Allied casualties at D-day, one of the biggest battles in WWII, were only 10,000. Worst battle of the US civil war, Appotomax 17,500 on both sides, Waterloo, 63,000 both sides, Yada yada yada.

    The bible does this all the time but I don’t notice it much in the Koran except for, 124,000 prophets. These are like the Chinese expression, ‘old man with a ten thousand foot beard’, which means ‘an old guy’.

    watercat

    August 14, 2008 at 3:13 pm

  37. oh that’s a easy one cos all Muslims say it about 50 million times, KG, u will know this for sure, like this, “Rabb il alameen.”
    U know like in the first lines of sura al Fatiha when u make prayers (namaz). Look, see, alam is world, so the translation is alameen (worlds), rabb is lord, so rabb il alameen is like “Lord of the Worlds”, but yes, it could also be meant to mean creation, and i will explain why below, but in literal Arabi, yes, alam does in fact mean world.
    So how come Muslims knew about planets then?
    Huh, they DIDN’T, cos within the translation is a deeper meaning, alameen just means mankind, angels and jiin, that’s how it was meant, so Mo wasn’t telling about all galaxies and stuff, no, he was telling about all the different hang outs his invisible friends have, or, all that’s been created.
    And yet, this is the stupidity of it, i got serious questions about me religion when i was 14 or so, cos i had a telescope and used to stand on the roof of the camp scared of the guards and stuff looking up at the desert stars and me dad would say,
    ‘Jaz, if u love astronomy then be serious about Islam cos Allah is the Lord of all these planets u keep studying.”
    And even then i knew it wasn’t true.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 3:22 pm

  38. Watercat – I think it’s a pretty standard problem in all ancient texts. Every now and then some archeologist finds some sort of supply record and it turns out that there was food for only 5000 men. But in oral traditions, people seem to feel a need to exagerate and up the drama. As we say about some of my family, these people could come out of the coat closet with an exciting story about what happened. My family is funnier though.

    Robin

    August 14, 2008 at 3:27 pm

  39. I agree about the crazy numbers but those who believe the bible is truth have to believe them. Here read for your self.

    http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/31.html#15

    The 90,000 is not even the men killed, just an estimate of the population of women and boys you would have if you had a population with 32,000 virgin girls in it. So AFTER the big battle they lined up all the women and boys and hacked them up on gods orders.

    GAD

    August 14, 2008 at 3:49 pm

  40. Paki girl I agree with you, there is loads of racism in the UK disguised as Islamic criticism, some like kafirgirl will never know how it is like to be subjected to racism, its unfortunate. People like kafirgirl in my opinion do not care anymore. If I ever thought about leaving Islam I would never abandon part of my culture which is of course is Pakistani and I really would not let some folks leave such foolish comments on my blog, proliferating the kind of ignorance we are supposed to be fighting against.

    MaSalaam my Allah’s peace and mercy be on you.

    Zain

    August 14, 2008 at 4:14 pm

  41. Oh and also Happy Independence Day to all the Pakistanis. Lets not forget why our beautiful country was founded an lets honor the memories of these who died to give us freedom. It was such a sad-day the architects of divide and conquer (the British) ripped up and left everyone fighting for scraps there. Its very sad, this is even today in Kashmir is going but I guess some here are more into, attacking myths and legends.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Day_(Pakistan)

    Zain

    August 14, 2008 at 4:25 pm

  42. Mate, your beautiful country was founded because Muslim Indians didn’t want to live with Hindu Indians, or more specifically, knew that in a democratic state Hindus would have most of the power. So a whole lot of Muslims of varying cultures and ethnicities ended up together solely based on religion, even though they had nothing else in common except Islam. Then, after years of being treated like crap by their friends in “Western Pakistan”, the Bangladeshis split off. Now democratic, cosmpolitan India is roaring ahead, and Pakistan is well on its way to becoming Afghanistan Mark 2.

    I can’t speak for kafirgirl, but I wouldn’t doubt she has experienced racism in her life, but I don’t see what racism has to do with this blogs, or the comments therein.

    Quentin George

    August 14, 2008 at 5:18 pm

  43. Zain, salam Alaikum and happy yaum i azad,

    I never abandoned me culture Zain and i am proud to be Pakistani and support for all our rights also, and yes, what u are telling is right, in UK we are suffering so much nowadays and yes, even innocent things are used against us also.
    But Zain, please listen carefully, nothing Kafir Girl ever said was against me, or any other Pakistanis, and she isn’t platforming racism, so i think u are not correct in what u are saying and that is very unwarranted actually and Kafir Girl is a ally of Pakistani women and we should be proud of her u can say. About Kashmir situation, of course, as a Pakistani i feel disgust at what is going on, but also anger at jaysh Muhammad and Lashkar-i-toybah and all the atrocities committed against our citizens since 2007 offensive began. But u got to know Zain, this blog is for Qu’ran discussions and not for religious stuff. Another, Pakistani community in the west is very diverse, in UK we know what all ure stuff, in America, they are high class u can say, and just know about america.
    Masalama, Zain. Pakistan Zindabad

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 5:25 pm

  44. Quentin, hopefully KG has never experienced racism, America is not like UK, Kafira doesn’t have to suffer what we do from time to time and Pakistanis in America are highly regarded anyhow. Now about the politics and stuff, i feel sure, really i do, we best not go there.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 5:28 pm

  45. Sometimes I feel lucky to have been born and raised in Mexico. There are many cultures there, but they live next to each other in harmony. It is a Christian nation, but in the 19th century there was a strong separation of church and state. We even had a Christian war in the 1920’s because the presidents were anti-church, and by law priests could not vote and were not even considered to be Mexicans. Evolution was taught uncontested. And even though the people is very religious, the majority is not fanatically so. I have good friends who are evangelical or jewish, and it never was an obstacle; everybody respected each other’s faiths.

    Were it not for corruption, drug lords running rampant, and the increase of born-again prophets, both religious and political, it would be a very nice place to live (I live abroad, still looking for the right place to live).

    Brg

    brg

    August 14, 2008 at 5:44 pm

  46. Oh, and is this is the same Zain from the other thread, he’s confirmed he’s a Muslim mainly because he likes women to be submissive.

    Points for honesty my friend, but I’m sorry, you really are an arsehole.

    Quentin George

    August 14, 2008 at 5:44 pm

  47. “women to be submissive” LOL.. but seriously what fun would that be?

    Zain, Jaz – let’s not get the Partition into this discussion. There’s a place and time for it.. and this blog is not, I guess.

    Shashi

    August 14, 2008 at 6:00 pm

  48. exactly shashi, we don’t want politics here

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 6:02 pm

  49. Quentin, hopefully KG has never experienced racism, America is not like UK, Kafira doesn’t have to suffer what we do from time to time and Pakistanis in America are highly regarded anyhow. Now about the politics and stuff, i feel sure, really i do, we best not go there.

    I grew up in the Bible belt. I was the only non-Christian in my school. I was one of two minorities — the other was a black girl, and the two of us ended up eating a lot of lunches together.

    I eventually moved to a much nicer, much more Godless city. Things changed. I changed. Then 9/11 happened. I was an atheist long before it happened. I was in college then, in a religion class when it actually happened. And I sat there with tears streaming down my cheeks as others in the class talked about how “we should just bomb the fuck out of them.” I got up and left class halfway through. I walked to my car and found the tires slashed.

    And you know what? I didn’t tells anyone. Not my parents, not my siblings, not the police. I paid to have my tires replaced that day. To this day, nobody in my family knows that happened. I didn’t want to tarnish their view of our lovely little liberal city. Friend X and I went to the candlelight vigil that night and we cried alongside whites, black, hispanics, arabs, anyone and everyone.

    Don’t assume you know what it’s like to be brown in America. You wouldn’t know unless you lived here. Take my word for it.

    kafirgirl

    August 14, 2008 at 6:05 pm

  50. Kafir Girl, ure right, u know, this is ure experience, ure reality, ure life. The only person who knows, who can tell, who can set the record straight is u. It’s one hell of a eye opener for me, KG, really it is and i am so sorry u had to experience that. U know, for me (in me ignorance), america is a place to run to, maybe the last chance i got, if it comes to that, but i got to try to understand it’s not all roses and stuff.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 14, 2008 at 6:19 pm

  51. Jasmine, I fucking love this country to death. I really do. It’s not perfect, but I have the freedom to live my life the way I see fit. I think I do differ from a lot of Pakistanis, because for me it comes down to this: I make myself.

    I am not a clone of my parents. They do not define me; I define myself. The first thing I am is not Pakistan or atheist or ex-Muslim. Above all else, I am an individual. I am a human being. If someone wants to misconstrue that into me abandoning “my” culture then so be it. I say “my” in quotations because if I had to choose a culture I fit best into, it’s not Pakistani. It’s Pakistani-American.

    kafirgirl

    August 14, 2008 at 6:48 pm

  52. KG.. co-brownie. :-D. I know exactly what you are talking. I got shouted and beer bottles thrown, shouted expletives etc etc. But I understand that that was the knee-jerk reaction to 9/11. It happens everywhere and US is not so different.

    Shashi

    August 14, 2008 at 7:19 pm

  53. Exactly, Shashi. The UK isn’t “special” in its racism. And brownies and Muslims aren’t the only ones it happens to. I don’t feel like I need a pat on the back because I’ve dealt with racism in my life — it’s made me the person I am today.

    kafirgirl

    August 14, 2008 at 7:24 pm

  54. Jasmine,
    I’m rather confused that you would consider me racist or ‘white privileged’ because I find it offensive to encourage children to sing a happy song about divine genocide. I also consider forcing children to sing Christian Hymns (as I was) quite abhorrent. If I criticise the lyrics of ‘Onward Christian Soliders’ – which I’m happy to do in the interests of consistency (and because I would enjoy it) – does that also make me racist against Europeans, Africans, South Americans and any other racial group that practices Christianity? It breaks my heart to see children in Buddhist monasteries spending hours chanting and counting prayer beads when they could be outside playing – do I also hate Tibetans? I make no judgements about nationalities or skin colour, Jasmine, just about good and bad ideas. Teaching children stories and songs that celebrate divinely-sanctioned genocide is one bad idea – attempting to stifle honest criticism of religion by deeming it racist is another.

    Lance

    August 14, 2008 at 7:45 pm

  55. Lance: “attempting to stifle honest criticism of religion by deeming it racist is another.”

    Right fucking said. That’s no different than people saying I’m “attacking” the Quran. Know what? I don’t think the Quran’s feelings are the least bit hurt from me poking fun at it.

    kafirgirl

    August 14, 2008 at 7:51 pm

  56. Kafirgirl, you mentioned this theme when talking about Noah, and it seems to run through ALL the stories…

    * God sends prophet.
    * Prophet tries to save people.
    * People think prophet is a lunatic.
    * God saves prophet, drowns people.

    Maybe god needs better prophets. The ones he’s supposedly sent really suck at their job. On top of that, despite failing to save the people, the prophets get a golden parachute in the end.

    Sounds like Allah runs his kingdom based on the Dilbert Principle.

    spajadigit

    August 14, 2008 at 7:53 pm

  57. Spajadigit said

    Maybe god needs better prophets. The ones he’s supposedly sent really suck at their job.

    Ain’t that the fucking truth? I mean, even Mohammed who was sent down to unit the entire world under one global religion. It’s 1400 years later and the Muslim population is still sitting at 20%. I wouldn’t be surprised if God abrogated all that shit about Mo being the very last prophet.

    Edit: I should also add that I think it’s hilarious that God doesn’t place blame on his ineffective prophets. He blames the people. Even though he admits to putting a seal on their hearts. So, uh, who is really at fault there?

    kafirgirl

    August 14, 2008 at 7:58 pm

  58. You know what… if God were to see what all people do in his name… he would either be extremely furious or just maybe he has a very good sense of humour. S/He would probably be laughing his ass off with all the shit that goes on his name.

    Shashi

    August 14, 2008 at 8:44 pm

  59. Her name, Shashi; her name.

    watercat

    August 14, 2008 at 8:46 pm

  60. Bad messages, bad prophets, bad people, there is a theme here, they all lead to human suffering and death. It’s the Demiurge!

    Demiurge A deity in Gnosticism, Manichaeism, and other religions who creates the material world and is often viewed as the originator of evil.

    GAD

    August 14, 2008 at 9:31 pm

  61. Chapter 8: Spoils of war cliffnotes

    (Korancronyms: M&M;= Me & Mo; IKE = I know everything; IKYA = I’ll kick yer ass)

    1 M&M get all the loot. 2-3 Cult members get hard-ons over me 4 and I pardon and reward them. 5 When I sent you to fight, you bitched 6 like I was trying to get you killed. 7-8 You wanted to attack just the unarmed guys, but I wanted to kill everybody,9 and I promised to send angels to help, 10 but I lied. IKE 11 It rained while you were asleep, 12-13 and I assigned the angels as cheerleaders. 14 You have to go to war, but that’s better’n going to hell like the infidels; 15-16 If you don’t fight I’ll send you to hell. 17 I get all the credit for winning. IKE 18 I alway win. 19 ( an aside to the enemy: If you come back IKYA again. 20-23 (back to his own guys) obey M&M; 24-25 remember I judge you, and IKYA. 26 Remember how much I did for you. 27 Be honest. 28 Heaven’s better’n even your own kids. 29 I’ll tell you what’s right and wrong. I’m nice. 30 The infidels plot, but I plot better; 31 when we preached at them they said: “Yeah, sure, 32 why don’t you rain down stones from the skies on us?” 33 But I didn’t feel like killing them right then, when they were seeking forgiveness (!!) 34 They’re not pious enuf to guard the Mosque, and 35-8 if they don’t repent, they should go to Hell. 39-40 So, I’ll help you kill them all; 41 one-fifth of the loot for Mo, and for charity. IKE 42 You wouldn’t have fought that day, but I made you. IKE 43 I made you think there weren’t many of them, so you wouldn’t chicken out. IKE 45 When you meet an army, stand firm, and think of me, 46 Obey, and Persevere. 47 Don’t be like satan’s guys, 48 cuz he turned tail and ran. 49 They thought they were right but they weren’t. 50 Angels take the infidel’s souls away, and hit them, 51 and say “see what you’re making us do?” 52 They did that to the Egyptians, too 53 IKE. 54 I drowned the Egyptians cause they didn’t believe me. 55 I hate unbelievers. 56-7 If people break their contract, kill them. 58 If you suspect they might break a contract, break it yourself. I don’t like treachery (!!) 59-60 Kill the infidels, 61 but make peace with them (!!) IKE. 62-64 If they try to cheat you, I’ll give you allies, so 65-66 fight! I make you stronger’n them by a factor of 100 or 10 or 2. (God sucks at math.) 67 Don’t take captives till after a battle. IKE 68-69 War makes it okay to steal shit. I’m nice. 70 Tell your prisoners they are better off now, and enslave them. 72 Support the troops. Fight anybody except your allies. IKE 73 Infidels help each other, you should too. 74 Support the troops. IKE.

    Revised Pacifist Version
    27 Be honest.
    61 Make peace with the infidels.
    62-4 I’ll help if they try to cheat you.
    73 Infidels help each other, you should too.

    watercat

    August 15, 2008 at 12:12 am

  62. Shashi,
    As God reportedly goes apoplectic over dietary choices and ladies’ choice of headwear, my guess is he wouldn’t be laughing..
    Actually, my guess is he’s too busy not existing to be much concerned.

    GAD – ah, the Demiurge. Another horror crawls from the great vault of Bad Ideas. This was an ugly medieval attempt at theodicy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy) which said that as God was all good, then the earth which contained evil and suffering must be the work of an evil god, and should be shunned at all costs. This included such gems of theological delight as the Cathars of southern France telling new mothers that they had just spawned little devils. The number of lives wasted by people only thinking about the next one is quite horrific to contemplate. Such ideas were eventually countered by the masterstroke of St Francis pointing out that birds and flowers were , like, really pretty. Well, that and some burnings, torture and a small crusade.
    Personally, he should have just told them to get a life.

    Lance

    August 15, 2008 at 12:18 am

  63. real juicy ones here:
    [007:194] Verily those whom ye call upon besides God are servants like unto you: Call upon them, and let them listen to your prayer, if ye are (indeed) truthful!
    [007:195] Have they feet to walk with? Or hands to lay hold with? Or eyes to see with? Or ears to hear with? Say: “Call your ‘god-partners’, scheme (your worst) against me, and give me no respite!
    [007:196] “For my Protector is God, Who revealed the Book (from time to time), and He will choose and befriend the righteous.
    [007:197] “But those ye call upon besides Him, are unable to help you, and indeed to help themselves.”
    [007:198] If thou callest them to guidance, they hear not. Thou wilt see them looking at thee, but they see not.

    WHY DONT MUSLIMS APPLY THE ABOVE TESTS TO ALLAH “Have they feet to walk with? Or hands to lay hold with? Or eyes to see with? Or ears to hear with?”
    “are unable to help you, and indeed to help themselves.””If thou callest them to guidance, they hear not. Thou wilt see them looking at thee, but they see not.” ISNT IT HYPOCRITICAL TO SELECTIVELY APPLY ALL THESE TO PAGAN DEITIES AND NOT TO ALLAH???????

    anand

    August 15, 2008 at 4:07 am

  64. Lance, obviously if i respond i will be criticized so i am not going to.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 15, 2008 at 5:34 am

  65. “Demiurge A deity in Gnosticism, Manichaeism, and other religions who creates the material world and is often viewed as the originator of evil.”

    ….I think you mean Mandaeism. Manichaeism is dualistic, but does not believe that matter is evil. It does have a lot of Buddhist influence, however, in the impurity of the natural world.

    Quentin George

    August 15, 2008 at 5:57 am

  66. “I wouldn’t be surprised if God abrogated all that shit about Mo being the very last prophet.”
    KafirGirl

    This is what HAS happened (if u believe in me mum’s sect), cos Mirza Ghulam Ahmad came and he is the mahdi and messiah also and this changes everything. He is the mahdi of Qadian and his followers are now being persecuted just cos they support for him. Is that right? Look how much suffering is going on, just cos they believe Muhammad is not the last prophet and the Mahdi of Qadian got sent by Allah.
    Another, there’s nothing bad or wrong about Ahmadi beliefs, cos all their ideas is lovely in all ways, this is what i think, and me mum, she knows what’s real islam also, more than anyone else also.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 15, 2008 at 6:07 am

  67. ok, u should know also, the Prophet died in 1908.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 15, 2008 at 6:10 am

  68. ISNT IT HYPOCRITICAL TO SELECTIVELY APPLY ALL THESE TO PAGAN DEITIES AND NOT TO ALLAH???????

    Anand, In one word: yes. But Islam? Hypocritical? Blasphemy!!

    Lance, Jasmine, you guys can duke it out in email. There’s plenty of other shit to discuss.

    Jasmine, I don’t know very much about Ahmadis. I didn’t realize they saw him as a prophet. Interesting. I can see why that doesn’t go over well in the Muslim world.

    kafirgirl

    August 15, 2008 at 7:52 am

  69. watercat, as always, fucking hilarious. I think that about sums it up, actually!

    Lance,

    Such ideas were eventually countered by the masterstroke of St Francis pointing out that birds and flowers were , like, really pretty.

    And sadly enough, that’s how a lot of religious folk are still using as evidence of their loving and merciful God. “You don’t believe in God? But what about that tree over there?? Who made that beautiful, perfect tree, smartypants?”

    kafirgirl

    August 15, 2008 at 7:57 am

  70. It wasn’t peaceful St. Francis who put this idea to rest, it was the Albigensian Crusade, cos this idea of the impurity of matter doesn’t make sense unless u also mention the Cathars, which is what i know u are talking about here, Lance.
    Interesting u know about such stuff, Lance. Seriously, i am impressed.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 15, 2008 at 10:40 am

  71. Interesting post.. liked it,

    “And it isn’t just the Christians who are doing this. It’s the same sad story with Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and all the other religions out there that claim to be the one truth. Pot. Kettle. Black.”

    In fact any one claiming truth is going on the same lines as saying that this is all there is to know in science and saying that all else is false..

    Everything based on a truth claim seems easy to disprove by simply disproving one thing. E.g. in Quran if one falsehood were to be found it should be rejected as being completely false by what it claims itself.

    But the truth claims are even deeper ingrained in psychology that they are absolutely impossible to remove from peoples minds. One wonders if all the education and critical reasoning we have acquired is for waste..

    Another Kafir

    August 15, 2008 at 12:01 pm

  72. Jasmine, KG,
    I was hoping that sticking it to an obsure 13th century French heretical sect would enhance my credentials as an equal opportunity sceptic.
    Seriously, have no interest in duking it out with anyone. Just felt I was misunderstood / misrepresented so defended myself. That’s the end of it as far as I’m concerned. Jasmine – we cool?

    Lance

    August 15, 2008 at 3:37 pm

  73. Lance, i see where u are coming from totally, it’s like u said, ‘honest’ criticism, and being equally rational is the key. We’re cool for sure. Ure, Lance Mannion right, same guy?

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 15, 2008 at 3:58 pm

  74. Hi Quentin George, may Allah’s peace and mercy be on you.

    If KG would permit me I would like to correct a few statements which are misconstrued in your response to me. I do apologize to KG this will be my last post on partition.

    You are correct Indian Muslims did want separate state this was due to the fact that the Muslims of India were actually being subjugated by some Hindus who followed the caste-system Muslims were not allowed to drink water from wells they were considered lesser beings. Which created communal strife, much of the violence which erupted was by religions leaders of the Sikh and Muslim community who proliferated misinformation in the Punjab, about Muslim mobs raping Sikh and Hindu women and vice-versa this was actually based on rumors, this lead to conflict in the Punjab and then all three sides committed ethnic cleansing. When the separation actually took place this exploded tenfold and all three sides are to blame, although in my opinion the British are to blame more so, this was due to the fact the British still had the colonial army which could have been used to stop the infighting yet the British just watched from the side-lines and dissected the Indian subcontinent.

    With respect to the situation in Bangladesh (then East Pakistan) due to the tribal mentality the Bengali’s thought the Pakistani government which mainly comprised of Punjabi’s were using recourses of the Bengal to bolster up West Pakistan. Today Pakistan is actually better off without Bangladesh not the other way around.

    Cosmopolitan India? you must be having a laugh half of the population is in poverty, minorities are still being oppressed many Hindus still follow the racist caste-system you have evil practices of Sati (mass widow burning) and female infanticide.

    With the comment you made about my sexual preference yes its true I like subservient females its a sexual preference this is not like forcing women to be subservient as this would be abuse. In fact I would never hit a women or mistreat my wife I also don’t think women are inferior to men intellectually. I honor and respect women. Maybe I am slightly intimidated by intelligent and independent women well actually I am. Unfortunately Islam is dominated by a huge, huge male misogynistic society, and I can’t seem to put my finger on why this is maybe someone could help me out. A person who wants to abuse women is going to find rationalizations to justify this, and unfortunately, many use Islam as a pretext to justify mistreating women, you have absurd tribal laws which permit men to gang-rape women, there could never be a justification to rape an Innocent woman never.

    @Jasmin, I was not trying to suggest KG was racist of allowed racism that would be a lie. I might not like her for her theological views but I will never make a lie about her. This is against my own integrity. KG has her views and I have my beliefs she has her path and I have my path. I am a human being with low intellect, I have no right to tell her she is evil or deserves to go to hell. Only god knows whats in her soul. I don’t, I don’t know all the answers I can’t tell her to believe what I believe in I don’t have any evidence to convince her with. All I hope is other humans can extend the peace and mercy I wish and pray for them to me.

    May Allah give us guidance and make our children pious.
    O Allah, all sublimity is for You at every incline and all praise is for You at all times under all conditions.

    Masalaam, peace and mercy be on all.

    Zain

    August 15, 2008 at 6:08 pm

  75. May Allah give us guidance and make our children pious.
    O Allah, all sublimity is for You at every incline and all praise is for You at all times under all conditions.

    You can spout this Allah / prayer shit on your own blog — not here. Do it again and you’re banned.

    kafirgirl

    August 15, 2008 at 9:17 pm

  76. dude… i could refute every single claim you made.. but lookin at the way your arguments are soo fucked up it’s not even worth the time. and i dont want KG to ban me.

    CD

    August 15, 2008 at 10:21 pm

  77. 124,000!!!!! prophets sent and Allah still cannot get the job right? There are more non muslims than muslims in this world!!!

    Allah is such a loser.

    iskimo

    August 16, 2008 at 1:03 am

  78. Zain,

    Muslims have not been welcomed in hindu households because of the fact that cow slaughter, which is considered a blasphemy by hindus is committed by them. I think that has little to do with castes.

    Sadly you are right about female infanticide, but sati is an unheard of practice for many many years now.

    I certainly think the divisive attitude on part of hindus, muslims and sikhs which was based more on personal bias rather than a dialogue was what has caused the partition.

    I think muck throwing on each others people and attitude will not help, rather it might, would help if we evaluated the truth claims and rejected them. I realise that the idea is lost on you.

    Another Kafir

    August 16, 2008 at 2:16 am

  79. CD: I hope you are in good health my friend. Please CD do correct me if I am mistaken on anything I have posted.

    Dear respected Kafirgirl I do apologize that you have been offended by my prayer I will refrain in future thank you for brining it to my attention.

    Zain

    August 16, 2008 at 4:32 am

  80. “You are correct Indian Muslims did want separate state this was due to the fact that the Muslims of India were actually being subjugated by some Hindus who followed the caste-system Muslims were not allowed to drink water from wells they were considered lesser beings. ”
    Have u ever read the Constitution of India? Hindu theocracy was not on the minds of the Congress leaders at all. Even today, even the right-wingers like BJP dont want a hindu theocracy as most hindus are opposed to that. Quran generates a “Kafirophobia” and “Allahophobia” and “Satanophobia” in muslim mind and u cannot see things clearly. Had partition not happened, some 300 million people in Pakistan and Bangladesh would have been part of Indian democracy-the largest tody.

    “With respect to the situation in Bangladesh (then East Pakistan) due to the tribal mentality the Bengali’s thought……”
    BLAME EVERYONE ELSE…….THAT COMES EASILY TO MUSLIMS-I GUESS.

    “Cosmopolitan India? you must be having a laugh half of the population is in poverty, minorities are still being oppressed many Hindus still follow the racist caste-system you have evil practices of Sati (mass widow burning) and female infanticide.”
    WHERE DID U GET THESE FACTS FROM-UR MADRASSA? SATI IS CONFINED TO RAJASTHAN ONLY (A SMALL PART-THAT TOO VILLAGES).IT IS A PUNISHABLE OFFENCE. FEMALE INFANTICIDE IS NOW ALMOST NON-EXISTENCE-ONLY HAPPEN IN POOREST OF THE POOR.WHAT HAPPENS IS SEX-SELECTIVE FOETICIDE WHICH IS UNFORTUNATE. Nobody defends these. Full-fledged democracies like India r capable of introspection and improvement. In democracies, humans disccuss, debate and evolve solutions and dont blindly follow religious books and make laws based on that.

    anand

    August 16, 2008 at 6:40 am

  81. What this post is about: Islam, the Quran, prophets found therein.

    What this post is NOT about: Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, racism, anything else.

    Stick to the topic. If you want to argue about other shit, take it to a BBS.

    kafirgirl

    August 16, 2008 at 9:54 am

  82. “Unfortunately Islam is dominated by a huge, huge male misogynistic society, and I can’t seem to put my finger on why this is maybe someone could help me out.”

    Maybe because the lowliest, poorest, uneducatedest [sic] man can still feel good about himself by smacking his/a bitch up. God smacks man, man smacks woman. How many men would follow (kill and die for) a religion where women are the dominant (or even equal). You should know this all to well as you prefer submissive women.

    GAD

    August 16, 2008 at 10:42 am

  83. Thanks KG, my point exactly, I think politically we all may have our own ways of looking at things and that should not stop us from evaluating the Quran. I’d urge Zain to answer the questions raised by your post.

    Another Kafir

    August 16, 2008 at 12:15 pm

  84. Whats a BBS??

    Another Kafir

    August 16, 2008 at 12:17 pm

  85. A bulletin board or forum.

    kafirgirl

    August 16, 2008 at 12:24 pm

  86. hmmm I don’t know about answering KG I don’t know what to answer with to her. I think she has it all wrong although I find it slightly arousing.

    Allah have mercy on me.

    ZAIN

    August 16, 2008 at 6:40 pm

  87. OMG.. was somebody trying to imposter or is the dude that retarted…

    Ideal inauguration for banning policy eh?

    Another Kafir

    August 17, 2008 at 5:17 am

  88. dude Zain, go read Wiki if you want. or rather open your fucking eyes. That’s all I have to say.

    Hey KG, 7 chaps I haven’t seen a bit of Islamic science in action. I want to know, you see where the science of eye-sight comes from. (ref to the video).

    Shashi

    August 17, 2008 at 9:01 am

  89. Shashi: I have edited on wiki most articles on controversial topics are disputed. Wiki can be edited by anyone I really would not use wiki as source to study a subject on. In my university if you quote wiki articles your paper automatically gets rejected. wiki is discredited. Pakistanis and Indians are constantly fighting on there see even discussion sections of the articles. Ever other day you get RfA filed against some Pakistani or Indian Administrator.

    What do you want me to open my eyes too? I don’t see how I as a human could be any more resposnable to actually post on an anti-Islamic blog, I am not the one who has my eyes closed. Islam is a faith its the Quran is a book of signs not a science journal and trying to read it as a science journal you are bound to find abursities in it.

    Zain

    August 17, 2008 at 9:33 am

  90. “Islam is a faith”
    Yes.Blind faith.

    “its the Quran is a book of signs not a science journal and trying to read it as a science journal you are bound to find abursities in it.”
    Scientifc absurdities prove that it is not from All-knowing Almighty creator.

    anand

    August 17, 2008 at 12:34 pm

  91. @Another Kafir
    Did u receive my e-mail?

    anand

    August 17, 2008 at 12:35 pm

  92. Anand,

    Scientifc absurdities prove that it is not from All-knowing Almighty creator.

    Especially when the book itself claims to be perfect and free from doubt & involution.

    kafirgirl

    August 17, 2008 at 12:37 pm

  93. @KG
    “There are a number of ancient accounts of this camel and its miraculous nature. It was said that the she camel was miraculous because a rock in the mountain split open and it came forth from it, followed by its young offspring. Other accounts said that the she camel used to drink all the water in the wells in one day, and no other animals could approach the water. Still others claimed that the she camel produced milk sufficient for all the people to drink, on the same day that it drank all the water, leaving none for them.”

    The above quote is from the link u gave. The ayats in Quran dont give any account of the miraculous way in which she-camel was brought out from a rock in the mountain.No wunder as u rightly pointed out-the ayat leaves us baffled as to what is so damned gr8 about a she-camel in a desert? The miraculous nature of creation of the she-camel wasnt mentioned by MO in the ayat as “There are a number of ancient accounts of this camel and its miraculous nature.” which were known to the Arabs of Mo’s time and it was unnecessary to explain to them.

    THIS PROVES THAT THE MECCANS ALLEGATIONS THAT THE AYATS WERE NOTHING BUT FAIRY-TALES OF THE ANCIENTS-SEE AYAT 16:24 IS PROVED CORRECT.

    Dr. Munir Munshey (one of http://www.answering-christianity.com‘s authors):
    [088:017] Do they not look at the camel (and wonder)? How (superbly) is it created?
    Arberry:
    [088:017] What, do they not consider how the camel was created,
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/cgi-bin/quran/quran_search1.cgi?search_text=88%3A17&B1=Search

    PERHAPS AYAT 88:17 HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THIS SHE-CAMEL STORY. AGAIN READING THIS AYAT, ONE GETS NO INFO ABOUT THE MIRACULOUS NATURE OF THE SHE-CAMEL.ONLY CONFIRMS THE TRUTHFULNESS OF MECCAN ALLEGATIONS THAT WHAT MO RECITED WAS “OLD FAIRY-TALES” AND NO REVEALATION FROM SKY-DADDY.

    anand

    August 17, 2008 at 12:51 pm

  94. @KG
    “Especially when the book itself claims to be perfect and free from doubt & involution.”

    Yes.
    [015:001] Alif, Laam, Ra. These are the verses of the book, a clear lucid Qur’an.

    And the ayat containing she-camel story proves that verses of Quran are not clear.

    anand

    August 17, 2008 at 1:07 pm

  95. anand and KG. Qur’an is not a scientific journal its work of perfect flowing poetry that is all. It uses metaphors and similes. Shakespearian literature has not be suppressed by anyone else yet, this is due to the fact that no one but Shakespeare could top Shakespearian English. Similarly with the Quran, Quranic Arabic has not been surpassed and never will, you can’t challenge something which is the epitome of perfection in its league. Qur’an is just poetry, its not a scientific journal its not a medical journal there are absurd ideas in there about sperm production and geocentric earth etc. We have evolution thoery Adam and Eve creationist story is discredited its just myth and legends its folklore. You have Science for intellectual purists and you have religion for spirituality and to humble yourself.

    Islam is just a faith, but only created to challenge onces intellect. I personally think Islam has a subliminal meanings in its is passages, Allah (god) inspired men to recite it. everyone has a hard time even great scholars had doubts about Islam. You just don’t need to concern yourself with thinks which don’t make sense in Islam, this is my opinion. Just pray to god and keep your hearts open, you can’t apply common sense to such beliefs.

    Zain

    August 17, 2008 at 5:06 pm

  96. Just pray to god and keep your hearts open, you can’t apply common sense to such beliefs.

    Seriously, what part of atheist do you not fucking understand? Guess what? You’re done here. Thanks and buh bye.

    Edit: I just got an email from someone from FFI. Turns out Zain is a teenager.
    http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51142&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
    That explains so fucking much. And yeah, he’s still done here.

    kafirgirl

    August 17, 2008 at 5:50 pm

  97. You have been far more tolerant than I would have been. I’ve been biting my tongue so I wouldn’t make trubbels like before, but Gahhhhhh.

    High Five on completing one fifth of the book. :-)

    watercat

    August 17, 2008 at 6:56 pm

  98. Yeah, I ignored his bullshit until it felt like I was swimming in it. He’s been egging me on for a while, trying to get me to comment on his blog, and when I didn’t, he came here to stir things up. Fuck that noise.

    High five to 20%! So funny that you figured that out because I just did the math today myself. I was getting a little depressed at how my bookmark isn’t even at the halfway point yet, and I figured a number would make me feel better. 20% is not too shabby. It’s further than I’ve ever made it before!

    kafirgirl

    August 17, 2008 at 7:06 pm

  99. Kafirgirl

    Does immersing yourself in something illogical that you clearly don’t believe make you feel strange? Like watching a well made movie about someone who is deranged?

    Oz

    August 17, 2008 at 9:56 pm

  100. Oz, that’s the perfect way to describe it. Only I don’t know if I’d even say the movie’s well made. I think it’s like the movie Alexander.

    Kafir Boy and I went to see it when it first came out, and to this day, it remains the worst movie I have ever sat through. It was baaaaad, and we kept thinking / hoping it would get better. And it kept getting worse and worse and worse. And we sat there, all pissed off, saying we’d leave if it got any worse…but we didn’t. We sat through that entire piece of shit even though it made us want to bang our heads against a wall the entire time.

    That’s the Quran for me. I’ll finish this shit. But it makes me want to gouge my eyes out.

    kafirgirl

    August 17, 2008 at 10:16 pm

  101. anand,

    I replied as well…

    Another Kafir

    August 18, 2008 at 1:45 am

  102. 13 yr old? no wonder his argument is that ‘ it is the epitome of perfection so cannot be questioned’.. when his mind develops further ask him to get back to us here. :-D

    hey anand, can you mail me? I have some info that i want to share with you.. actually not info but a couple of pdfs. my id is hyderabadiangrez@gmail.com. thanks dude..

    Shashi

    August 18, 2008 at 8:39 am

  103. @Shashi
    Yes. E-mailed.

    Anand

    August 18, 2008 at 8:46 am

  104. replied back.. confirm plz. sorry KG.. last time I am going to have a private conv on your blog. :flower:

    Shashi

    August 18, 2008 at 9:45 am

  105. Jasmine: I believe the Ahmadis are the kinder/gentler “Muslims”, but only because their views are heretical enough that I don’t believe they are real Muslims — and the Sunni/Shia certainly persecute the Ahmadis as apostates and blasphemers. From what I can tell, though, they (Ahmadis) still have issues with gender equality, etc. And given that I’ve been deceived by one (taqiyya/da’wa/whatever you want to call it), I’m more than a bit suspicious of the faith. Especially when I read things like this:

    http://ahmadiyya.org/intro/survey.htm#s

    “…it is now established that the good-natured people of Europe and America are getting ready to accept Islam…”

    (Yes, I know this isn’t the alislam.org site you mentioned before, but the quote is supposed to be from Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.)

    I’m not trying to say that all Ahmadis are bad people (far from it), but at the moment, I’m still suspicious of their intentions.

    Michael

    August 18, 2008 at 7:20 pm

  106. there’s more prophets than power rangers [that’s a fucking lot]! and they suck too.

    again, no women prophets, no women heroes. it’s indicative of what that microscopic backwards ass society was about.
    oy vey!

    Priest

    August 18, 2008 at 10:57 pm

  107. Michael, Ahmadis are real muslims and it’s true what the mahdi told that so many millions of europeans are becoming Muslim (Ahmadi Muslim tht is), cos if u come to Tilbury in UK then u will see thousands of decent and good persons take their oath to the Prophet of Qadian and join the Ahmadiyyah Community.
    Another, i feel sad that u are suspicious and stuff, cos Ahmadis is non violent even after all what they are suffering.
    About Taqiyya, all i can say is it’s not even a Ahmadi practice, it’s Shia, Ahmadis are anxious to state their identity as Muslims and not apostates after article 20 of the Pakistani contituition said Ahmadis aren’t muslim and mustn’t describe themselves as such (often at terrible danger-if they do), so taqiyya is the opposite of what Ahmadis do.
    Another, taqiyya is a myth almost as it’s portrayed in the west and i even meself (laughably) have been accussed of, among other things, being a taqiiya person who hates Islam but never ever mentions Ahmadi based issues in a critical way-i even been accused of propagandaizing for them, huh, i am a total apostate, and apart from anything else, although me mum’s Ahmadi (in secret), i was raised as a strict sunni. But am i loyal to the people of Pakistan? Yes.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 19, 2008 at 11:22 am

  108. See, I’m just like Noah. And his people thought he was crazy too. But he wasn’t, was he? He wasn’t crazy. So I’m not crazy either. You calling me crazy? Why don’t you come over here and say that? I’ll fucking kick your ass. YOU’RE the one who’s crazy. Bitch.

    Actually Mo the man tried a different tactic. All he said was:

    if you think I am crazy, produce a Sura that is as crazy as the one I produced, and then there won’t be any competition.

    Isn’t this the defence used by Muslims even today? As soon as you doubt, they throw something complex in arabic at you and ask you to produce something like that on them. I wish i knew caligraphy and then I could have thrown it back. Nor do I know Sanskrit, then I could’ve made life really miserable for such guys. :))

    KK

    August 19, 2008 at 11:26 am

  109. The more you point things out that I missed I get the idea that Muhammads jewish friends/associates, that he got some of his stories from occassionally, were making stuff up for shits and giggles, I mean that camel stuff…wow.

    Michelle Stone

    August 19, 2008 at 11:24 pm

  110. Michelle, I just assumed that one was an urban legend. “My great great grandfather had a friend who….” style. And he just co opted it for his own purposes. “He was a prophet, see…”

    kafirgirl

    August 20, 2008 at 7:53 am

  111. “The fuck? It drank up all their water and left none for the people or other animals? And they had to drink camel milk? Bleah! That camel sounds like a fucking asshole. And I guess Saleh’s people agree with me, because they killed it.”
    HIGH FIVE!!!! People in desert have water scarcity.They arent likely to be impressed by old fairytales of camel drinking up all water and giving lot of milk for all the ppl.They asked Mo to solve water scarcity problem.See ayats 17:90-91.Ayats 17:90-91 show that verse 7:73 -story of she-camel-miracle makes no sense. These pagans were practical people and wanted practical problems like water scarcity solved.They didnt care about useless miracles like ayats of Quran/she-camel/splitting the moon.

    anand

    August 21, 2008 at 9:05 am

  112. Something you guys might be interested in:

    Saleh is an Arabic name meaning “Righteous.”
    Shu’aib literally translates to “Who Shows the Right Path.”
    Hūd means “Forbearance.”

    And Mohammed? Mohammed means “Praised.”

    Suspicious, no?

    kafirgirl

    August 25, 2008 at 3:44 pm

  113. Has anyone here ever made the mistake of drinking milk on a hot day? If you have, you’ll completely understand why they killed the camel!

    “I fucking hate camel milk, man. Drank that shit every day in ‘Nam.
    Me, too. Fuck this camel.”

    Hahahahaha!

    Btw KG, I read your blog while at work (I know, best damned employee I am) and it’s really hard trying to stifle my laughter and not pee in my pants at the same time. Must’ve had a weird look on my face earlier trying to not laugh out loud while reading your blog cuz my colleague looked over and asked, “you ok? you look constipated.”

    Yoke

    August 26, 2008 at 5:18 am

  114. I started to drink camel milk at age 11 and i just wanna say if it’s ure first four or five times, then u better be prepared cos it does some pretty wrectched things to u, and er, i think that’s as much detail as i want to give, so guys, ure warned!

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 26, 2008 at 1:02 pm

  115. The ‘ad do have a Wikipedia page: A’ad.

    You’ll be happy to see that it’s rife with [citation needed] notes, and that someone on the discussion page thinks the whole thing is so speculative that the article ought to be deleted.

    Sanguinity

    November 28, 2008 at 9:31 pm


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: