We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

7: The Wall Between Heaven and Hell (Part IV — And Moses passeth out.)

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I had a revelation last night.

See, Kafir Boy was standing on a utility ladder.  You know the kind: 10 feet tall, yellow, black, metal.  The ladder somehow slipped and fell.  Directly on my head.  With him still on it.  Ouch.  Seriously.  Ouch.  Kafir Boy walked away with some minor rug burn, and I have 5 giant bumps all up on my noggin.

After an hour of sitting around with an icepack on my head, trying to rationalize not going to the emergency room, the swelling went down.  It was right around dinner time, but we weren’t really in a cooking mood.  We were in a sit around and feel sorry for ourselves mood.  So we decided to be totally unhealthy for a change and order Chinese food.  MSGlicious! I pulled out the only Chinese food menu we have, and I shit you not, this is what it said on the cover:

We are closed on Sunday because we go to church.  God bless you!

…..dudes.  Do you have any idea what this means?  It’s a sign.  From God! Something fell out of the sky and bumped me on the head.  And then a Chinese takeout menu blessed me.  He hath reacheth his hand outeth to me, and lo, I will taketh!  Last night, after the ladder fell on me, before I called in my order of orange chicken, I converted to Christianity.  I will continue to post at this blog, but I will henceforth refer to God as Allah, because he’s obviously not my God.  That’s all I have for today.  If you need me, you can find me at church.  With the Chinese restaurateurs.  Praying and shit.

Pssh.  Can you imagine me in a church?  I’d be the girl with the lumpy head in the back laughing and snorting her way through the hymn book.  That’s what they’re called, right?  Hymn books?  Hymnals?  Oh, who fucking cares?  That last paragraph is a lie.  Everything else (the ladder, the menu) is the truth.  I thought I’d mix things up and share a story from my day — it’s my way of squirming out of writing a real intro to this post.  Cut me some slack here, ya’ll.  That ladder shook some brain cells loose.

The bad news:  all signs point to a mild concussion.
The good news:  a little retardation won’t stop me from blogging.  Let’s jump right in, shall we?

20 second recap of the last post:

  • Moses and Pharaoh compare penises
  • Moses wins and Pharaoh is a sore loser.
  • God takes off the gloves and throws down some plagues.
  • The plagues don’t have much of an effect since God sealed up the people’s hearts.
  • God drowns the fuckers.

At this point, God skips forward to the part where he hooks up with Moses on the mountain.  I’m sure a lot of stuff happened between drowning the fuckers and Mount Sinai, but God doesn’t specify.  He’s like one of those old people who fall asleep halfway through a story and then wake up 10 minutes later acting like nothing happened.  “As I was saying…”

Here’s how the meeting on the mountain went down:

142. We made an appointment of thirty nights with Moses (On Mount Sinai) to which We added ten more; so the term set by the Lord was completed in forty nights. Moses said to Aaron, his brother: “Deputise for me among my people. Dispose rightly, and do not follow the way of the authors of evil.”

God made an appointment with Moses?  An appointment? Like Moses is some big shot who doesn’t have time for God anymore?  The fuck??  Also, this appointment was supposed to be for 30 days, but God took 10 days longer than he originally anticipated. So much for omnipotence.  No time management skills, that guy.

Anyway, Moses leaves his brother Aaron in charge while he goes camping with God.

143. When Moses arrived at the appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said: “O Lord, reveal Yourself to me that I may behold You.” “You cannot behold Me,” He said. “But look at the mountain: If it remains firm in its place you may then behold Me.” But when his Lord appeared on the mountain in His effulgence, it crumbled to a heap of dust, and Moses fell unconscious. When he came to, he said: “All glory to You. I turn to You in repentance, and I am the first to believe.”

Oh.  Their.  God.  Where to begin with this verse?

Moses shows up to meet with God, and he wants God to show his face.  God won’t let Moses look directly at him — too pretty! Instead, Moses should look at the mountain.  Which mountain, exactly?  The one they’re standing on?  Or another one nearby?  God doesn’t explain.  Whichever mountain it is apparently isn’t there anymore.  But when God does show up on the mountain for real, the whole thing crumbles to dust.  And Moses?  Moses tosses a frail wrist to his forehead and faints.

And that’s how Moses became the first queen Muslim ever.  Sort of.  In chapter 39, God says Mohammed is the first Muslim ever.

39:11. Say: “I am commanded to worship God with obedience all-exclusive for Him;
39:12. And I am commanded to be the first of those who submit.”

I know what you’re thinking, but you can’t really blame God for that one.  He’s been around since, like, forever. He’s a kajillion years old.  He’s so fucking old that he should probably be dead, but by Jove, he’s hanging in there, that summabitch.  He’s probably just too busy dicking around with his denture adhesive and putting lotion on his diaper rash to keep track of trival details like these.

144. Said (the Lord): “O Moses, I raised you above all men by sending My messages and speaking to you; so receive what I give you, and be grateful.”
145. And We wrote down on tablets admonitions and clear explanations of all things for Moses, and ordered him: “Hold fast to them, and command your people to observe the best in them. I will show you the abode of the wicked.

Order.  Command. Fuckin’ A.  No please, no thank you.  God demands gratitude.  “Look at me, I’m God. I gave you a life you never asked for, plus all these bullshit rules that you have to follow without any real explanation.  You’re welcome.” Entitlement issues, much?

You know what?  I dated a guy like God once.  A guy with entitlement issues. Take my word for it:  not worth the trouble it takes to shave your legs.  A guy like that will buy you a couple of drinks and then try to weasel his way into your apartment.  Next thing you know, it’s 3 months later and the fucker’s showing no signs of leaving.  Moses should have turned his ass around and ran all the way to Egypt.  Pharaoh was a douchebag, too, but at least he let you look him in the eyes while he fucked you.

146. I will turn those away from My signs who behave unjustly with arrogance in the land so that even though they see all the signs they will not believe in them; and if they see the path of rectitude, will not take it to be a way; and if they see the way of error take it to be the (right) path. This is so for they have called Our messages lies, and have been heedless of them.”

The whole fucking thing is rigged.  Question God, and he’ll not only turn his back on you, he’ll actually go out of his way to make you believe the wrong path is the right path.  He will purposely lead you to hell.  That’s how fair and just God is.  The devil’s not enough of an adversary — God has to jump in and speed things along.

147. Vain are the acts of those who deny Our signs and the meeting in the Hereafter. Can they ever be rewarded for anything but what they did?

Um, no.  Vain are the acts of a god who insists that he’s kind and wise and benevolent, and then turns around to damn everyone to hell.  But who am I to judge, right?

148. In the absence of Moses his people prepared the image of a calf from their ornaments, which gave out the mooing of a cow. Yet they did not see it could neither speak to them nor guide them to the right path. Even then they took it (for a deity) and did wrong.

OK, get this shit:  while Moses is up on the mountain having his little fainting spell, the soon-to-be Jews make a cow idol.  A cow idol that actually moos. No joke.  Right after he says the cow makes a mooing sound, God says that the cow can’t speak to them.  Um, it moos.  That’s how cows speak.  God also says that cowgod can’t lead them to the right path, which is stupid because a) God hasn’t even told them what the right path is, and b) they just made cowgod, so they obviously don’t gave a fuck what God thinks.

God doesn’t really explain how the people did wrong, but I’m thinking they were like, “Up with skirts, down with God!”  The movie shows them dancing around the golden calf.  Scandalous!  And I vaguely remember some dudes were chasing after women, literally.  And some of these women had let down their hair which is, like, totally something only whores do.  (Good girls tie their hair in buns as tight as God’s ass.  And they only dance when danced to.)

All in all, though, it wasn’t much of a den of sin.  Your average high school nowadays is ten times worse.  Ohmahgah, how old did I just make myself sound?  *Le sigh*  Not that it matters.  None of this is in the Quran, though, so for all we know, they were just using the wrong amount of pebbles to wipe their ass or something.

149. Then they were filled with remorse and saw that they had erred and said: “If our Lord does not forgive us we will surely be lost.”

At some point these people realized that cowgod was no god at all.  Why?  Because it didn’t do anything to prove that it was actually a god.  Hell-oh, irony!

150. When Moses returned to his people, indignant and grieved, he said: “How wickedly you behaved in my absence. Why must you hasten the decree of your Lord?” And he cast aside the tablets, and pulled his brother by the hair. “O son of my mother,” said (Aaron), “these people took advantage of my weakness and almost killed me. Do not let my enemies rejoice at my plight, and do not put me down among transgressors.”

Moses comes back from his appointment with God and walks right in to the rave.  He pitches a little hissy fit, tosses aside the tablets, and then starts yanking his brother around by the hair.  Oh he’s a man of God, alright. Anyway, Aaron explains that the bad, nasty Jews overpowered him and he had no choice but to let them carry on with their rock and roll lifestyle.  And then Moses prays:

151. (Moses) said: “O Lord, forgive me and my brother, and admit us to Your grace, for You are the most compassionate of all.”

The most compassionate of all?  Really?  Go back a few verses and reread that bit about how God fucks with people’s heads and purposely leads them down the road to hell.  Most compassionate, my big brown ass.  After Moses jerks him off, God relaxes a bit.  He says that the people will be punished unless they repent.  Ho hum.  No surprise there.

154. When his anger subsided Moses picked up the tablets. Inscribed on them was guidance and grace for those who fear their Lord.

Lo and behold, the Ten Commandments! Know what always bothered me about the Ten Commandments?  The Jews were enslaved by Pharaoh for all these years until God decided it’s wrong.  But none of the Commandments say anything like “Thou shalt have no slaves.”   Shouldn’t that be, oh I dunno, number fucking one on the list?

But no.  That would be asking for too much.  Keeping the Sabbath holy and not coveting your neighbor’s wife.  That’s waaaaay more important than abolishing slavery.  At least to a God who comes off as a total slave owner himself.  Command, demand, order, obey, submit, punishment.  God makes it crystal fucking clear: your name Toby, bitches.

Anyway, Moses just can’t get enough of God so he schedules another appointment on Mount Sinai.  And this time, he brings along some cronies to grovel with him:

155. Moses chose seventy of his people for the appointment (on Mount Sinai). When they arrived they were seized by a tremor. (Moses) said: “O Lord, if You had so pleased You could have annihilated them and me before this. Will You destroy us for something the foolish among us have done? This is but a trial from You whereby You will lead whom You will astray and guide whom You please. You are our saviour, so forgive us and have mercy on us, for You are the best of forgivers.
156. Enjoin for us good in the world, and good in the world to come. We turn to You alone.” And the Lord said: “I punish only those whom I will, but My mercy enfolds everything. I shall enjoin it for those who take heed for themselves, who pay the zakat and believe in My signs,

Yes, blah blah blah.  Give to charity, believe in God’s signs, and this is when it gets good:

157. Who follow the messenger, the gentile Prophet, described in the Torah and the Gospel, who bids things noble and forbids things vile, makes lawful what is clean, and prohibits what is foul, who relieves them of their burdens, and the yoke that lies upon them. Those who believe and honour and help him, and follow the light sent with him, are those who will attain their goal.”

Well, gee fucking golly, who could God possibly been talking about?  Check out this next verse:

158. Say: “O men, I am verily the apostle of God to you all. His whose kingdom extends over the heavens and the earth. There is no god but He, the giver of life and death. So believe in God and the messenger, the gentile Prophet, sent by Him, who believes in God and His messages. Obey him; you may haply be guided aright.”

It’s Mohammed!  God told Moses that Mohammed would be coming, and that everyone — even the Jews — should obey him!  How very fucking convenient!  The only thing that could have set it up just a bit more is if God had tossed in some more details.  Like, “He’ll be wearing a red rose in his lapel and standing by the fountain at noon.”  Fuckin’ A.

Anyway, that’s all I have on Moses in chapter 7.  I’m sure he’ll be back later and the details of this story will magically change.  The Quran is fun like that!

Coming up next:  Noah…and a bunch of prophets you won’t find in the Bible.  Exciting!  Will chapter 7 ever come to an end?  Who fucking knows!  Stay tuned.


Written by kafirgirl

August 12, 2008 at 11:21 am

Posted in Quran

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    *drops stone tablet*

    Sorry, it’s impossible to resist a Mel Brooks interlude.

    Now call me silly, but a cow idol that actually moos, made in buttfuck bc? Color me impressed. I mean, maybe not worthy of worship, but those are some mad engineering skills. At least worthy of a blue ribbon and a good party.

    This chapter, and all that command shit and what have you, gets at something I wrote on my blog at one point, and really want to expand on at some point — what, exactly, is the reasoning that says that if some SuperDude created the universe, we’re all obligated to obey his every friggin’ command? Doesn’t reason dictate that you should use ethical decision making to decide whether he is worthy of following at all? Why does being the Creator give him rights?

    I know, I know, God made me think that so I’ll go astray and burn in Hell. But really, no one can give me a clear answer beyond the cowardly “But he’s god and can destroy you” bs.

    By the way, kafirgirl, Technorati thinks you haven’t updated in 20 days. You might want to get an account, claim your blog, and manually ping it (ewww, that sounds gross) to jump start it again :).


    August 12, 2008 at 12:35 pm

  2. “but by Jove, he’s hanging in there”

    Egad! the gods are multiplying!


    August 12, 2008 at 12:39 pm

  3. KG: I’m truly sorry for your bump on the noggin, but I think it has made you even funnier. Must be a miracle – praise be to, uh, oh nevermind.

    Gregory: The Mel Brooks interlude made me chuckle, I hadn’t thought of that movie in a long time. And as for usng reason to decide whether God is even worth following, I believe one of the fundamental tenants in the Qur’an as the notion of predestination. Perhaps KG can better comment, but it seems as if God has already determined in his little ‘ol black book which of us are headed for eternal bliss and which for Hell. If you were marked for eternal damnation there is nothing you can do in this world to redeem yourself, so why give a shit. Live like a saint or a killer – your destiny was determined by God before you were born. I was committed to Hell ages ago, but am personally looking forward to it because many of the smartest damn people that ever lived will no doubt be there, adn we outta have a rockin’ party.


    August 12, 2008 at 1:14 pm

  4. a4atheist —

    I hear ya. That whole God riggin’ the game thing is one of the reasons I think Islam is just plain ugly. Some Christians believe that crap, too.

    So we’ll have a party in Hell, and drink a lot and laugh at Judas, both for being played like a chump, and for being stuck in Satan’s asshole (ooooo, Dante reference, ten points to the Gregory!).


    August 12, 2008 at 1:37 pm

  5. Oops, sorry, Judas is actually being eaten by one of Lucifer’s mouths. Silly me, why did I remember that as asshole? :)


    August 12, 2008 at 1:39 pm

  6. “The devil’s not enough of an adversary — God has to jump in and speed things along.”

    Burning in hell for eternity doesn’t appear to be enough either – as god and his follower want to speed that along as well.


    August 12, 2008 at 1:49 pm

  7. Gregory, thanks for the Technorati tip. I’m such a n00b when it comes to blogging. No joke. I had to look up “how to ping” in the FAQ. I suck.

    a4atheist, the whole predestiny thing drives me batshitass crazy. But it does come in handy for one thing. If God wants me to be an atheist, there’s nothing anyone can do to change that. So all the shitheads who try to convert me back to Islam shouldn’t even bother. It’s God’s will. Why go against it?

    GAD, ain’t that the truth? It’s not enough that we’re going there anyway. There are people out there who would looooove to speed up that process.


    August 12, 2008 at 1:50 pm

  8. The golden calf story (and Aaron) are pretty interesting if you go deeper.

    Couple of superficial points:

    – after all the power that god showed them (which no other god could because there are none) they make an idol to another god (or did they?) Things that make you go hum.

    – Moses breaks the tablets in the bible. Where does Mo think gods only written words (by his own hand) are?

    – One commandment says “Thou shall not kill” yet right after breaking the tablets Moses orders all those involved killed and brother killed brother over 3000.


    August 12, 2008 at 2:17 pm

  9. kafirgirl — heh, I hear you. It’s often greek to me.

    GAD — Dude, the cow idol MOOed! Clearly that was the winning fact for those folks. If only God had mooed, there wouldn’t have been this little problem.

    And yeah, that “thou shalt not kill” had a lot of exceptions. It only implied in group, and only when the priests — er, I mean God, wanted it to. As for everyone else, well…book of Joshua, anyone?


    August 12, 2008 at 2:26 pm

  10. There’s a way around this killing prohibition. Big Mo broke the tablets in the original story, but then went back up there and made new ones, so little Mo just left out the rewriting part. Here’s the thing, the new ones are all about feast days, unleavened bread and goat stroganoff—they don’t say jack about murder or stealing, so it’s okay then. High five!

    **What the bible calls the ’10 commandments’ is the new ones (exodus 34)


    August 12, 2008 at 3:26 pm

  11. how fucking convenient. So God tells Moses to hold off until Mo comes. No No.. Mo just takes the old source code, makes some custom changes and voila! it’s windows vista… err.. i mean Islam.
    One thing I am not able to comprehend, maybe coz my IQ is like 5 or 10, when you are starting a faith why not start from scratch? like you know, start own myths, own lineage etc.. it’s not like the only people left when Mo started Islam were all christians and he needed to customize it to make people convert to Islam. The whole arab world was there just worshipping their pagan gods, no?


    August 12, 2008 at 3:40 pm

  12. “Good girls tie their hair in buns as tight as God’s ass. And they only dance when danced to.”

    Dude, this is their last chance to get laid before the New Testament. Any cow in a storm.

    Also, they all inexplicably look like Julie Newmar; that body ain’t built for a nunnery.

    Sarah Beedoo

    August 12, 2008 at 3:52 pm

  13. Actually, Gad, that first point is something that’s never been explained to my satisfaction in the bible, either.

    I mean, how many times does god do something utterly holy fucking shit amazing, and the Israelites bobble off and mill around and forget what they’ve seen in like forty days or less?



    August 12, 2008 at 4:32 pm

  14. Any cow in a storm. Hah!


    August 12, 2008 at 4:36 pm

  15. “Here’s the thing, the new ones are all about feast days, unleavened bread and goat stroganoff—they don’t say jack about murder or stealing, so it’s okay then.”

    Indeed, the hilarity of the actual non-smashed commandments including:

    “Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother’s milk”

    Yes sir, God sir.

    Oh, I gotta say, the Biblical account of this is much more exciting. Moses gets to go up to talk to God face to face, and then God moons Moses.

    (Trust me, read it yourself: God totally shows Moses his backside).

    Then it goes and wastes ten chapters on how to build the right candlesticks for the Ark of the Covenant.

    Quentin George

    August 12, 2008 at 5:17 pm

  16. The ending where it mentions Mo is fucking golden…

    “blah blah, worship me, follow my ten commandments… OH! and obey Mohammed!”


    August 12, 2008 at 5:17 pm

  17. “GAD — Dude, the cow idol MOOed! Clearly that was the winning fact for those folks. If only God had mooed, there wouldn’t have been this little problem.”

    No doubt that is a sign of powerful god magic, but I’m a bit suspicious that that part was ad libbed seeing as it wasn’t in the original. Maybe it was god testing them, you know to weed at the stupid ones, wait, the stupider ones.


    August 12, 2008 at 5:28 pm

  18. **What the bible calls the ‘10 commandments’ is the new ones (exodus 34)**

    It’s even more interesting then that. This is as good a write up as I’ve seen.



    August 12, 2008 at 5:39 pm

  19. “One thing I am not able to comprehend, maybe coz my IQ is like 5 or 10, when you are starting a faith why not start from scratch? l”

    Reinventing the wheel is hard, modifying one is much easier and you get a built in customer base.


    August 12, 2008 at 5:44 pm

  20. “Actually, Gad, that first point is something that’s never been explained to my satisfaction in the bible, either.

    I mean, how many times does god do something utterly holy fucking shit amazing, and the Israelites bobble off and mill around and forget what they’ve seen in like forty days or less?”

    If you haven’t read it read “Who Wrote The Bible”. It goes a long way in explaining (some not all) why these thing may not be as they seem. It is so much better to read then the bible, I couldn’t put it down.


    August 12, 2008 at 5:49 pm

  21. Sundry comments (and one bit of information that you didn’t catch ;-):

    – In his book, The God Delusion, R. Dawkings mentions that according to a certain scholar, the “thou shalt not kill” commandment refers to Jews, only, i.e.: “thou shall not kill (another jew; others, no problemo)”, implying that the writers of the Bible were not talking about a universal god, but a Jewish god.

    – Aaron is the one making the golden calf (or cow, here) on request by the people, but when the time to pay for it comes (and we all know how god gets at these times), he gets away because he is brother to god’s pet prophet. Doesn’t this reek of unfairness?

    – Creating a whole pantheon is not an easy task. You also need to include key ideas that people can recognise in order for people to fall into them. There is a recorded attempt by a man back in 100 AD who created his own god and religion TO MAKE MONEY, and he used these key ideas in order to tailor it to what people expected (virgin birth, resurrection, holy suppers, etc.). This man was very succesful (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycon).
    Now, this might apply to the creation of Christianity too, in the case that Jesus was not an historical figure, as it includes also these key ideas.

    And now, that bit of information:

    – The Lord said: “I punish only those whom I will, but My mercy enfolds everything. I shall enjoin it for those who take heed for themselves, who pay the zakat and believe in My signs, 157. Who follow the messenger, the gentile Prophet, described in the Torah and the Gospel,”

    Let’s see, Mo says that this is what god said to Moses and the other 70 guys on top of mount Sinai? That he mentioned the Torah? The Gospel? But neither had been written yet!!!!!! In fact, the Torah includes the story of Moses, the golden calf/cow, mount Sinai, etc. Or was the Torah back then just the daily paper with the events of the day?

    Now, on to another thing. Where in the Gospel is Mo being mentioned, according to Muslims? Perhaps god is not referring to Mo, but to Jesus here? After all, he was a prophet according to Islam.



    August 12, 2008 at 7:11 pm

  22. Watercat, rewriting?? As in God changed his mind? The fuck? What happened to the all-knowing, omnipotent God?

    Shashi, someone else touches on this point, but it’s worth mentioning again. It’s a lot easier to get people to upgrade their software than it is to get them to buy something they’ve never heard of before.

    Sarah, ha! You make me laugh, lady. You’re right, though — all those women running around and no fatties or fuglies. As if.

    QG, I’ve read about the divine mooning. Fucking hilarious. Although if you combine the two it makes for a pretty funny story, too — God moons Moses and the mountain crumbles at the sight of his ass.

    GAD, I’ll add “Who Wrote the Bible” to my Amazon wishlist. …which keeps getting longer and longer and longer thanks to you guys!

    brg, I just took it to mean that God was predicting the writing of the Torah and the Gospel. Which is still fucking stupid. I don’t think he’s referring to Jesus, though, because right after that verse, it goes into the whole “It’s Mohammed!” schtick. Plus there’s the makes lawful what is clean / prohibits what is foul thing — in the Quran, it says over and over again that this is the reason God is sending Mohammed. As far as I know, it doesn’t say anything about Jesus being sent done for that specific purpose. But, hell, who fucking knows? The entire thing is a great big pile of manure.


    August 12, 2008 at 9:10 pm

  23. 158. Say: “O men, I am verily the apostle of God to you all. ……..Obey him(the gentile prophet); you may haply be guided aright.”

    It is not “Say:I am verily the apostle of God…Obey me taht u may be happily guided aright.”

    We have lost the challenge “produce a sura like this.” We cant produce such stupid verses.Whatever v produce will be far better than this.


    August 12, 2008 at 11:36 pm

  24. Perhaps god is not referring to Mo, but to Jesus here?

    Jesus is an ethnic Jew, hence not a gentile.

    Doesn’t mean it has to be the Wrecker from Mecca though…Personally, it could just as easy be, say Constantine the Great, Augustine of Hippo or David Koresh.

    Quentin George

    August 13, 2008 at 2:21 am

  25. Kafirgirl,

    I beg to differ. Originally, I was going to write “If Mo said that god said in Mount Sinai to Moses and the others…” to reflect the possibility that he could be talking about either a) something that god told him, Mo, in 600+ AD, that had happened way back, in which case both books would have been already written, or b) that god was speaking way back of books that would be written in the future.

    However, a) does not seem to be likely after a second reading (using the Skeptics Annotated Qu’ran) because god is clearly talking to Moses.

    As for b), we would need to know the Arab word for “described”, as in “described in the Torah and the Gospel”. If they use there the future tense, well, then it is a “prediction” (we all know that nothing was predicted, don’t we?); if they use the past tense, then it is a slip of Mo or his editor (and we know how often that happens).

    By the way, the SAQ text has “the gentile Prophet” as “the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write”. More apologetics by Ali?

    One last thing. I noticed that you didn’t mention the 40 years of roaming in the desert. Is there any mention of that in the Qu’ran? It would be interesting not to find it there. After all, what benefit could Mo get in describing god’s punishment of living 40 years in a dry, forsaken land to people who spend their whole lives there? Better to talk about gardens, honey and hordes of virgins waiting in the afterlife.



    August 13, 2008 at 4:37 am

  26. Hello kafirgirl

    It is a nice blog with uninterrupted thought process. I stumbled here due to my quest for answers. I am a hindu and am seeking answers regarding everything. After reading this post, i could not help but copy paste from something i came to know about recently. Below I am pasting the part of “interactive script” from movie “Zeitgeist”. movie can be obtained from http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

    Here goes the script:

    This is Horus.[M] He is the Sun God of Egypt of around 3000 BC . He is the sun, anthropomorphized, and his life is a series of allegorical myths involving the sun’s movement in the sky. From the ancient hieroglyphics in Egypt, we know much about this solar messiah. For instance, Horus, being the sun, or the light, had an enemy known as Set and Set was the personification of the darkness or night .And, metaphorically speaking, every morning Horus would win the battle against Set – while in the evening, Set would conquer Horus and send him into the underworld. It is important to note that “dark vs. light” or “good vs. evil” is one of the most ubiquitous mythological dualities ever known and is still expressed on many levels to this day.

    KK, I edited your post and removed 90% of the movie script. First off, that’s just waaaaay too big to be a comment. It slowed up the page loading on my end, and honestly, nobody’s going to read the whole thing. Secondly, this is not the place for it. This post is about Moses and the mountain, not about how Christian mythology is a rip off of Egyptian mythology. Rest of my comments are below
    – KafirGirl

    There is lot more and the movie really opens your eyes to a number of other things.


    August 13, 2008 at 7:34 am

  27. KK, thanks for the link. I’ve read a lot of reviews about that movie on atheist boards, and I keep reading one thing over and over again: the movie is full of errors. Oh, and apparently the Jesus shit is only in the first 1/3 of the movie. The rest is about conspiracy theories: how 9/11 was perpetuated by the government, how the entire world is run by a handful of bankers, etc. Yeah. Fuck that noise.

    BRG, QG brings up a point I didn’t even think of. The prophet will be Gentile, not Jew. However, you bring up an even better point: it’s Ahmed Ali being God’s little helper monkey.

    Ahmed Ali did not believe that Mohammed was illiterate. I actually agree with him on that one in light of the kind of work he did for his first wife. But still — going from illiterate to gentile is a fucking stretch. I found some other translations for you:

    Yusuf Ali: (157) “Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;

    Pickthall: (157) Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them.

    A. J. Arberry: (157) those who follow the Messenger, ‘the Prophet of the common folk, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel,

    The prophet of the common folk. Nice touch!

    I’ve discussed this before: saying Mo was unlettered / illiterate is most likely just an attempt to make it seem like he hadn’t read the Torah or the Bible. Sort of to give him an air of credibility because there were a lot of Jews and Christians around. It wouldn’t have been hard to learn and borrow their myths.

    So, to me the verse is just trying to set up a nice little prophecy of Mo’s coming that he could then shove in the local Jews’ faces to say, “See?? It’s right there!” Whether he did it himself or whether someone else down the line did it, it serves the same purpose.

    As for wandering in the desert for 40 years, it’s not mentioned in this chapter, but I did cover it in Chapter 5 (Part I — Guess what? The Jews still suck.) I’m sure it’ll come up again at some point.


    August 13, 2008 at 7:47 am

  28. brg, the arabi for described is like this…… wasfa, this is meaning he described so u can say like this
    wasfa al tawrat wa al injiil, (he described the torah and gospel).
    if u want future tense then it is like this, sawfa yuwsaf, meaning he will describe. so u can see if u are using a arabi qu’ran, please check like this how describe is coming in the past and future.
    ووصف في التوراة والانجيل
    وقال انه سوف يصف الانجيل والتوراةnow another, if u are using Urdu translations than of course it’s beyaan kaaana for that verb and it’s nothing same as Arabi our system is another.


    August 13, 2008 at 9:02 am

  29. “157. Who follow the messenger, the gentile Prophet, described in the Torah and the Gospel.”

    see, it’s not what u told brg, it’s not he described (wasfa), no, the Qu’ran in Arabi is using passive voice, this is “He was described.” This is past pasive in Arabi, and if u remember Arabi class of Qu’ran this is called- al maadi mahjuul. About me qu’aad (arabi grammar, it memorized it and can not be wrong also).
    In fact, if u read sura Al A’raf at aya 157 u find, no, u don’t need describe at all (ure english translations is not accurate), me urdu translation is accurate, why?
    Cos u are telling it’s “describe”- but the aya uses “written”
    and the aya is, “yuwjadnau maktubuan indahum fi al turah wa al injeel.”
    Huh, arabi is not saying what u are telling, it’s another, it’s saying, “Those who follow the illiterate prophet who is WRITTEN (not described) in the Torah and Gospel.

    So Qu’ran is simply saying that the Torah and Gospel predicted Muhammad and that he is written (maktubuan) in the christians and jewish books.
    Another, Urdu translations is using likha (not beyaan khaana), so both Arabi and Urdu is agreement and there will not be mistakes in Urdu translations, also, this is not possible, so i hope it is clear now.


    August 13, 2008 at 9:25 am

  30. Wow, thanks Jasmine! That actually totally clears it up. So all the translators fudged the verses a little, and it should say that Mohammed was written about in the Torah and the Bible, not that he was described. So now the question is this: was Mohammed written about in the Torah and the Bible? Anyone know? (My guess is that he’s full of shit.)

    P.S. I don’t remember that from Quran classes because they didn’t teach us any Arabic at all. They only taught us how to string together the letters to make the sounds. Like being able to read Spanish but not understanding a word of it. So thanks for clearing that up.


    August 13, 2008 at 9:32 am

  31. it’s very interesting cos u have ‘gentile’, but the actual arabi uses the word “ami, and ‘ami means illiterate.
    So? Does being illiterate mean it’s synonomous with not being Jewish (arabi), this is possible cos arabs had oral traditons, or does it mean Muhammad just couldn’t write?
    The two things are massively different and all the arabi says is simply – ami (can’t read and write).
    Some personages will say that ami means non jew, and this is how umma came into use for the islamic community-meaning, oddly, ‘community of illiterates’, which is ironic cos based thier whole faith on literacy!
    I think the aya is saying Muhammad was simply illiterate (ami), not gentile.
    I can now hear this voice in me head shouting,
    ” Jaz, will u PLEASE shut the fuck up with ure Islamic school stuff.”


    August 13, 2008 at 9:43 am

  32. ok, ty for not being angry and stuff KG, just delete anything u don’t think is useful (this is stuff i memorized when i was small and yes, i learned me stuff ok maybe).
    Ok, yes, but that was like me in UK, i just learned to recite but when i got to the Gulf after age 11, then it was very intense Arabi and i am fluent in spoken arabi also even.


    August 13, 2008 at 9:46 am

  33. Jaz, please DON’T shut the fuck up about your Islamic school stuff. It’s really helpful, actually, to have the help of someone who knows Arabic.

    The gentile thing, I think, is just Ahmed Ali being an apologist. I totally missed it, so thanks to BRG for sorting that one out.

    Isn’t “ami” (illiterate) where the word “ummah” (the entire Muslim community) comes from? I vaguely remember reading something about this a while ago.


    August 13, 2008 at 9:54 am

  34. In Deuteronomy 18:17-19, Moses prophesied:

    “And the Lord said unto me. They have well spoken that which they have spoken, I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”

    (The Acts 3:20-22) says Muhammad will come after Hadarat Eissa (Jesus), and he is Ishaemlite. Also we have (Isaiah 21:13-17) which tells he will be from Arabia.
    Song of Solomon (5:9-16), tells the prophet is beloed of god and we say muhammad is habib u-allah. But the most important is the word “comforter”14:15-17)
    “But the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things..” (John 14:26) -this is always used by Muslims as clear proofs for Muhammad in the Gospel of John as the comforter also in John’s book is to bring his own teachings.

    ok, anyone who wants more about proofs about Jesus in the Bible and stuff i kindly invite u to go to this site alislam.org which is the official web site of the Ahmadiyya community (me mum’s sect, not me dad’s- which is sunni, and no good also).


    August 13, 2008 at 9:58 am

  35. Oh man, I can just see the Muslim readers wringing their hands together in glee, “See! It’s in there! It predicted Mohammed!”

    Orrrrr it just goes to show that he was familiar with the Bible and Torah and he USED the prophecy for his own benefit.


    August 13, 2008 at 10:11 am

  36. They claim that Torah prophecies Mo and claim that Torah is corrupted.

    So, they rely on “corrupted(tahreef)” Torah to back Mo’s claims of Prophethood.


    August 13, 2008 at 10:37 am

  37. “Orrrrr it just goes to show that he was familiar with the Bible and Torah and he USED the prophecy for his own benefit.”

    I would think about the second one. There is a Hindu prophecy that Lord Vishnu will take another avatar when human ethics are screwed up big time and right now there are atleast 2-3 people who are using that to say that they are the incarnation. But no one has hit pay-dirt yet unlike Mo..


    August 13, 2008 at 10:40 am

  38. Anand, the Torah is only corrupted when it’s not being exploited for Islam’s benefit. I tried to explain that to a (now-banned) Muslim commenter a few days ago and she just wasn’t having it. That’s how the Quran rolls, though. When Mohammed needs the Jews, everyone’s a son of Adam. When they piss him off, they’re monkeys and apes.

    Shashi, that’s kinda hilarious. Are people actually buying in to that crap?


    August 13, 2008 at 10:45 am

  39. Come on now. Let’s say for a moment that there IS a God, that he created everything, blah blah blah. How does he have fun? Yup, sets humanity up for the BIGGEST Punk’d episode eva. He totally set that shit up thousands of years ago and is just sitting back giggling until he and Ashton come out from the video room, where it will cut to all the faces of christians/jews/muslims who will be all “Aaaawww, shit, you sonofa…I can’t BELIEVE this! Ashton, I am so gonna get you for this!” and hilarity ensues. God’s gonna be all “You guys are so gullible! You bought all that crap about burning bushes and parting seas, eternal damnation, MAN you guys KILL me. Remember all that ‘don’t turn around or you’ll turn into a pillar of salt?’ well that whole fam was totally in on that!”

    Yup, all those religious types got punk’d by God, I’m pretty sure. If nothing else, that would be hilarious.


    August 13, 2008 at 10:45 am

  40. Shashi, Savitri Devi claimed that madman Adolf Hitler was a a avatar of the Hindu god Kalki, so when it comes to prophecy, the crazies are always in town.


    August 13, 2008 at 11:47 am

  41. Shashi, are u talking about the kali yurga and stuff here?


    August 13, 2008 at 11:49 am

  42. Jaz.. WTF?? Adolf Hitler an avatar? never heard that.. and yeah .. talkign about kali yuga and stuff. there is actually a guy who goes by Kalki Bhagawan (bhagawan for the uninitiated is God in Sanskrit). I know a couple of people who sold their shops, houses and donated everything to this guy.
    I am trying to find some prophecy that i can use but tough luck… :(


    August 13, 2008 at 12:26 pm

  43. “When they piss him off, they’re monkeys and apes.”
    And muslims “ape” the jews in Circumcision, ban on pork , method of slaughtering animals and stuff like that?


    August 13, 2008 at 12:26 pm

  44. As a former Catholic I’m absolutely sure the “Comforter” is the Holy Ghost. I was taught to call it “El Paráclito” in Spanish which translates to “comforter”, and per Quran 10:94 the People of the Book know better.

    Paraclete, Comforter (L. Consolator; Greek parakletos), an appellation of the Holy Ghost.

    To my understanding Mo wasn’t all that familiar with the Gospels and the Torah, to Muhammad the Trinity is Yahweh, Jesus and Mary, his followers believing it to this day:

    YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?”

    http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=IA46008 “Mosques are houses of God, where we worship Him and thank Him, whereas churches are the temples of infidels…who worship Jesus and his mother as though they were gods…”

    Too much tolerance there, BTW.

    According to Bible Gateway Isaiah 21:13-17 is about a prophecy against Arabia:

    “16 This is what the Lord says to me: “Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the pomp of Kedar will come to an end. 17 The survivors of the bowmen, the warriors of Kedar, will be few.” The LORD, the God of Israel, has spoken.”

    Notice the “God of Israel” bit. FACE!

    About Acts 3:

    1 Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour (…) 12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? (…) 14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life. (…) 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

    Uhmmmm… the brethren Peter was preaching to were Jewish, i.e. the promised prophet was a Jew. Also, Peter preached to the Jews and Paul was the apostle to the Gentile, I think Gregory can confirm this.

    I also understand Quran 7.157 as telling us that the Gospels were already written by the time of Moses (The fuck?) more than a thousand years before Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, the alleged writers of the Gospels, were even born.

    And if you read Exodus 32 you’ll convince yourselves what a sham Yahweh is: The omniscient one changes his mind, the most compassionate/omnipotent one can’t kill people himself so he orders Moses to order the Levites to kill people indiscriminately moments after he himself issued the “thou shall not kill” commandment, and decides not to punish Aaron after being given a tongue job by Moses a mere mortal who can make the creator of all things change his mind. Methinks Exodus 32 is reason enough to leave any and all of the Abrahamic religions and never turn back.


    August 13, 2008 at 12:37 pm

  45. seriously shashi, i have had serious run ins with neo nazis and been threatened and stuff cos i have been very outspoken against their stealing of desi womens’ issues, like honor killing, so i researched their stuff and Unite Against Fascism have documented all this crazy stuff, that’s how i know, not cos of me background, even though i was in Mumbai.
    So Savitri Devi reckons Hitler is the destroyer prophecized in ancient hindu texts and is the western incarnation of Kalki-the destroyer riding a white horse who comes to smash up the world cos it’s all so rubbish (huh, like Hitler made it any better), so Nazis are using some Hindu and even Sikh stuff also, but their real aim is to target Muslims, this is why i am fighting them.


    August 13, 2008 at 12:58 pm

  46. Hello!

    Sorry about forgeting the 40 years in chapter 5. I guess I have the attention span of a follower of Moses in the desert, forgeting soon after the facts.

    About the texts describing prophets in thos two books. Let’s see, there were about a gazillion prophets after Moses, and that is counting only the “official” ones. How can anyone know who was he, or those in the gospels talking about? They are so broad in meaning that could apply to anyone. Was Mo comforting? Are so his teachings? Do not think so.

    Now, this is a mote point, because currently there is no evidence, either archaeological or historical, that the Exodus, and other biblical stories, really happened. There is a book and a documentary called “The Unearthed Bible” discussing this. Therefore, Mo could say whatever he likes about Moses, god and him being some kind of pen-pals through the millenia, but if there is no god, Moses did not exist, and the Bible is a compilation of make believe stories with an agenda, then Mo was just a dangerously confounded man.



    August 13, 2008 at 1:40 pm

  47. Jaz.. dudette you’ve been everywhere. london, saudi, bombay, waziristan.. wow. If Hitler’s Kalki then I am God. seriously.. you are doing a tremendous job fighting the neo-nazis. keep it up. :)

    Does the quran actually say anything about the honour killings? Fucking bastards.. i saw a video from someplace in Pak sometime back. still sends shivers down my spine… wanted to kill each of those fuckers with a rusted blade. bastards. I know woman = 1/2 man and bullshit but does it explicitly tell anything about honour killings and other bullshit?


    August 13, 2008 at 2:13 pm

  48. Shashi, it’s not mentioned as such in the Qu’ran, but that’s cos there is no need, with injunctions for a man to allow stonings under the sharia etc, guys will take the law into their own hands…. and in the case of adultery-she’s already doomed. Honor killing isn’t about any specific religious command, it’s simply a inevitable outcome of male supremacist societies which is the only thing muslim societies can ever be-given their values that yes, are stated explicitly in the Qu’ran. Blaming local culture rather than islam is just a joke, but hey, that’s another disucssion entirely.
    I was never in South Waziristan by the way…. just curious, why do u think that, i never been out of Lower Sindh.


    August 13, 2008 at 2:26 pm

  49. kafirgirl – nothing in the Torah would even allude to Mohammed being a prophet for the simple reason that to be a prophet in Judaism you have to have spoken to God face to face.

    Even if everything Muslims say about Mohammed was true, he never spoke to God directly, merely through an intermediary (ie Gabriel) hence, even if he did appear in the Torah, he would not be a prophet.

    A far more pressing reason is that no new prophet or Messiah is supposed to arrive until Elijah comes back to earth. And I don’t see him around lately.

    Twisting verses of the Torah to make them seem like they are predicting someone is an old trick that the Muslims picked up from the Christians. The Gospel of Matthew is especially egregious for this. It’s so bad in fact that it says Jesus “fulfills” prophecies which aren’t prophecies, and even misreads one so badly so as to have Jesus ride into Jerusalem on two donkeys.

    Quentin George

    August 13, 2008 at 5:02 pm

  50. ….two donkeys? God mooning Moses? The fuck am I reading the Quran for? The OT and NT is where all the action is!


    August 13, 2008 at 6:15 pm

  51. Shashi asked about honor killings in the Quran …

    I don’t specifically recall any such verses, but I just wasn’t able to finish reading it all, either. It seems to me that when Muhammad had people assassinated, such as Kab bin al-Ashraf or Asma bint Marwan, for their insults (through poetry) of his honor/character, that it could be a source of justification for [continuing] the tradition of honor killings. Just my opinion/speculation. Perhaps other will have better answers. This is also one of the reasons why poetry is forbidden in Islam, too.


    August 13, 2008 at 6:44 pm

  52. “Twisting verses of the Torah to make them seem like they are predicting someone is an old trick that the Muslims picked up from the Christians.”

    Indeed, all that thing about Mary being a virgin is not in the Gospels at all. It seems to have been included as part of the faith because Christians picked a prediction from a greek version of the Torah… which included a translation error: “young woman” in the original had been mistranslated to Greek as “virgin woman”.

    But we digress.



    August 13, 2008 at 7:44 pm

  53. Michael .. “This is also one of the reasons why poetry is forbidden in Islam, too.”

    I dont know if you ever heard of Sufism or not, but I find it very pleasing. Sufis saints usually sing..isn’t it a form of poetry?


    August 13, 2008 at 8:28 pm

  54. Shashi, I looovvvved Nusrath Fateh Ali Khan. And then there was Rumi, of course, although he did write, “I am not a Christian, a Jew, a Zoroastrian, or a Muslim.”

    I didn’t know that Islam explicitly prohibits poetry. Here’s an article from FaithFreedom.org about the subject: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/abulkazem/Islam_and_poverty.htm


    August 13, 2008 at 8:54 pm

  55. Islam and poverty? Someone needs a spell check.

    Nusrath Fateh Ali Khan.. man i looooved his voice too. Also his nephew Rateh Fateh Ali Khan’s voice is like so similar to Nusrath’s that you wouldn’t believe it was by a diff person. And then there is the great Bade Ghulam Ali Khan saab and the great Ghulam Ali ghazals. I had such a great collection.. all I need is some Chivas Regal and Ghulam Ali ghazals. Heaven redefined.


    August 13, 2008 at 10:41 pm

  56. Ha! Didn’t even notice.

    When Nusrath Fateh Ali Khan died, there were all these rumors floating around Pakistan about how, I shit you not, he was found on top of his grave the day after he was buried. And his tongue was so long that it hung out of his mouth and reached all the way to his feet. The earth had rejected him because he was a sinner — he was big into the likker. Yeah. Needless to say, that was a mere rumor.


    August 13, 2008 at 10:45 pm

  57. “Indeed, all that thing about Mary being a virgin is not in the Gospels at all. ”

    Well, it is in the Gospels but, as you say, they were written in Greek, using a Greek translation of the Torah.

    The Hebrew word “almah” was incorrectly translated as “virgin”, when it should mean “young woman”.

    It’s irrelevant though, since that passage was never supposed to refer to Jesus. (Despite the “Emmanuel” fudge that the author of Matthew tries to pull)

    Quentin George

    August 14, 2008 at 2:36 am

  58. Oops, Quentin, I must have messed up my information. I’m too focused on the fact that Paul never mentioned Mary’s virginity that extrapolated it to the Gospels. I can only say that it was 3 am here when I wrote that. Anyway, at least the point that Christians picked it off a prediction in a mistranslated version of the Torah was right on.



    August 14, 2008 at 3:46 am

  59. KG, of course the fact he was so overweight and in poor health just had to take second place to to idea he was actually mudered.
    U know what happened when Benazir was buried in Larkana, it was even worse- thousands of PPP followers started freaking out claiming they had seen Benazir’s face in the moon, yes, u heard me right, there was hysteria all over sindh as followers looked up and saw Benazir Bhutto’s face in the moon on the night of her burial, weird.


    August 14, 2008 at 5:06 am

  60. Shashi, I’ve *heard* of Sufism, but don’t really know anything about it. All I was interested in was reading the Quran and the history of Muhammad. I didn’t care too much about the sects that evolved afterwards. (No offense.)

    Regarding poetry, I seem to recall that Muhammad used poets in his own propaganda war, which is kind of ironic.


    August 14, 2008 at 8:10 am

  61. Michael – Sufism is a form of Islam very heavily influenced by Greek philosophy, especially Neo-platonism. In fact, its far enough from traditional Islam that a lot of Muslims don’t consider it to be truly “Islam”.

    (Think of fundamentalist Christians and their attitude to, say, Unitarianism or Mormonism).

    Quentin George

    August 14, 2008 at 8:32 am

  62. So did the cow idol work like the giant talking teddy bear that they once had at the mall? Was some poor guy forced to sit inside of it and make mooing noises? Or was it more like one of those toys that makes a noise when you squeeze it or pull its tail?


    August 16, 2008 at 3:32 pm

  63. i remember that reference about moses leading a group into war and saying something along the likes of ‘keep the virgins and slay all others’. wonder what those virgins were for? maybe to do secretary work – no wait, they’d get confused! you’d need two secretaries to get the job of one human!

    with the exception of the ‘don’t kill’ and ‘don’t steal’, the commandments are real bullshit. working on the sabbath? fuck you, i gotta make rent and the overtime is there…


    August 18, 2008 at 10:22 pm

  64. Hiya all.

    Right , so the jews are stuck in a flat empty windblasted hellhole in 2000BC and they make a mooing cow. Out of Gold.

    With what exactly? I Live in england in the 21st century and have access to electronic robot-making superstores, and I couldnt make a Gold mooing cow unless i committed massive funds and effort. Where are the batteries? Where is the sound sampler?

    Either the Jews were some sort of technologically incredibly advanced race in the Bronze age, or the Cow that Mooed was mooing supernaturally.
    Supernaturally, as in it was mooing because some God wanted it to moo.
    So there are at least then two gods.
    So Monotheism is a total sham.
    Or, the whole story is bollox from start to finish.


    August 29, 2008 at 4:42 pm

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