KafirGirl

We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

2: The Cow (Part I — Doubt and complexity)

with 51 comments

There is so much that is so jacked up with chapter 2 that I don’t even know where to start. There’s virtually no white space left in the margins of my Quran, and reading over my notes is giving me heart burn. Literally. At this rate I’ll have an ulcer from chapter 3, a hernia from chapter 4, and a full blown stroke by the time I get into the 100’s. Ugh.

I’m breaking chapter 2 into several smaller posts so you don’t have to suffer. You’re welcome.

God pulls out the big guns right at the beginning.

2. This is a book free from doubt and involution

He just throws that out there: there is no doubt or complexity in this book. No doubt. No complexity. In my opinion, the validity of this entire book absolutely hangs off of this claim. If there is any doubt or complexity in this book, it’s all a sham. I mean, that’s a serious claim there.

It doesn’t take long for things to fall apart. A few verses later comes the abrogation clause:

107. When We cancel a message (sent to an earlier prophet) or throw it into oblivion, We replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things?

God, who is omniscient and all-powerful, makes a neat little loophole for himself, so he can suddenly change his mind and cancel out previous revelations and replace them with newer, better revelations. …I don’t even know what to say.

Yes I do: DOUBT! INVOLUTION!

Mohammed was one clever summabitch. A merchant life was wasted on that guy, he should have been a lawyer. Confuckingvenient, isn’t it? If Mohammed God changes his mind about something he made up revealed, he can just make up reveal something new! Viola!

Here’s where everything gets even more confusing and complicated. The Quran isn’t arranged in chronological order. No, no, that would make too much sense. It’s arranged according to chapter length, from longest to shortest. So one part of the Quran might say “God doesn’t play favorites with prophets and they’re all equal,” and another part might say “God likes some prophets more than others.” In fact, it does say just that:

253. Of all these apostles We have favoured some over the others.
285. We make no distinction between the apostles.

Ta-da! Doubt. Complexity. And there are plenty more contradictions.

The earth was made first, then the sky.

2: 29. He made for you all that lies within the earth, then turning to the firmament He proportioned several skies: He has knowledge of everything.

No wait, the sky was made first, then the earth.

79:27. Are you more difficult to create or the heavens? He built it, raised it high, proportioned it, gave darkness to its night, and brightness to its day; And afterwards spread out the earth.

Not all of Christians are going to hell.

2:62. Surely the believers and the Jews, Nazareans and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and whosoever does right, shall have his reward with his Lord and will neither have fear nor regret.

Fuck that! All Christians are totally going to hell.

5:72. They are surely infidels who say: “God is the Christ, son of Mary.” But the Christ had only said: “O children of Israel, worship God who is my Lord and your Lord.” Whosoever associates a compeer with God, will have Paradise denied to him by God, and his abode shall be Hell; and the sinners will have none to help them.

Alcohol is not OK.

2:219. They ask you of (intoxicants,) wine and gambling. Tell them: “There is great enervation though profit in them for men; but their enervation is greater than benefit.

No wait, Alcohol is a-OK. And it’s a sign of God!

16:67. And in fruits of the date-palm and the vine, from which you obtain inebriating drinks and excellent food. In this indeed are signs for those who understand.

Then there’s the “God has power over everything” stuff that’s all over the damn book, which makes no sense because God apparently can’t control the devil.

2:34. Remember, when We asked the angels to bow in homage to Adam, they all bowed but Iblis, who disdained and turned insolent, and so became a disbeliever.

At this point, my head exploded. But I just abrogated it by getting a newer, better head and carried on.

There’s the confusion of God switching from third person perspective in chapter 1 to first person in chapter 2. But it gets better. God actually switches from third person to first person smack dab in the middle of chapter 2! Check it out:

33. Then He said to Adam: “Convey to them their names.” And when he had told them, God said: “Did I not tell you that I know the unknown of the heavens and the earth, and I know what you disclose and know what you hide?”
34. Remember, when We asked the angels to bow in homage to Adam, they all bowed but Iblis, who disdained and turned insolent, and so became a disbeliever.
35. And We said to Adam: “Both you and your spouse live in the Garden, eat freely to your fill wherever you like, but approach not this tree or you will become transgressors.
36. But Satan tempted them and had them banished from the (happy) state they were in. And We said: “Go, one the antagonist of the other, and live on the earth for a time ordained, and fend for yourselves.”
37. Then his Lord sent commands to Adam and turned towards him: Indeed He is compassionate and kind.

Double you. Tee. Eff. God needs a better editor. He also needs to stop being so damn cocky.

23. If you are in doubt of what We have revealed to Our votary, then bring a Surah like this, and call any witness, apart from God, you like, if you are truthful.

The Quran is so perfect and unique that nobody can duplicate it. Ohhhh puh-lease. Insert eye roll here. Click here for some very brave person’s Quranic style verses written in Arabic with English translations. If language is not the issue, I can think of a dozen unique and beautiful things written in English by people who never claimed to be God. Why even set up such a challenge that someone could actually take you up on? Because if you do take it up, you go straight to hell. Of course. But don’t forget: God is merciful, ya’ll.

Coming up next: Women suck. And Jews suck, too.

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Written by kafirgirl

July 9, 2008 at 5:11 pm

Posted in Quran

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51 Responses

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  1. This is really entertaining stuff. I can never get over how insecure god is. He’s like a big dork who was elected president of a club. He’s drunk with power!

    I think if there really was a god and he was as the bible and quran describe him, he’d probably leave a comment here in your blog. Something like, “God is all mighty and all powerful and I’mma send you to hell and you’re a big poopface!”

    Rob

    July 9, 2008 at 5:43 pm

  2. God is almighty and all powerful and I’mma send you to hell and you’re a big poopface!

    Rob, whoever Rob is, was totally asking for it. Does sir approve of my godly trolling?

    No, but seriously. Atheist Experience blog linked here, and I’m having a blast so far. Will add you to my feed reader.

    Allah

    July 9, 2008 at 9:17 pm

  3. Just discovered you through the friendly atheist :) hello and keepo it up- I have never managed to get through the whole Quran – I kept falling asleep! the bible tends towards much more dramatic stories – in a fantasy kind of way :)

    Psychodiva

    July 9, 2008 at 11:12 pm

  4. Rob, don’t piss off Allah. He’ll turn you into a monkey like he did with the Jews. More on that later!

    Thanks, Allah! Glad you likey — I was borderline worried that you’d, I dunno, strike me with lightning or something. High five!

    Hi Psychodiva, I won’t pretend that I don’t fall asleep. It’s a lot of really boring stuff that goes into unnecessary detail. Who fucking cares how long a woman waits to remarry after her husband dies?? (4 months, 10 days). But I’m determined to make it through. Thank you for reading!

    kafirgirl

    July 10, 2008 at 12:40 am

  5. Yeah, back in my college days I read the texts of different religions and schools of thought, like the Upanishads, the Dhammapadda, the Tao Te Ching, the Analects of Confucius, the Bhagavad-Gita. Then I tried to read the Quran and found myself bored to tears. I could not get through the first sura.

    Good luck with your new blog and with your attempt to do what I could not! :-)

    Tommykey

    July 10, 2008 at 12:41 am

  6. I need to save verse 72, where all Christians go to hell, in a file somewhere. I never knew the exact verse, but I’ve used the notion frequently as a rapid response to Pascal’s Wager.

    i.e., “You think I should hedge my bets against hell by becoming a Christian? Well, if I’m a Christian then I increase my risk of going to Muslim hell… and that place is REALLY nasty!”

    BTW, what’s a compeer?

    Kazim

    July 10, 2008 at 3:37 pm

  7. Russell, I had to look it up because it shows up several times in my translation, usually in the same context. It means someone who is of equal standing to someone else. Basically just a fancy way of saying peer. So anyone who thinks Jesus is also God is making him a peer of God; do not pass go, do not collect $100, go straight to Muslim hell. I’d say that’s a(nother) really good reason to not be a Christian.

    Hi Tommy, the first sura was easy…it’s the second one that’s making me borderline suicidal. I didn’t know God was so freaking boring. I’m no fan of the Bible, but at least it has a little drama, a little action, and way more comedy!

    kafirgirl

    July 10, 2008 at 3:47 pm

  8. Yeah, but Kazim, you know what Rhology would say.

    “Islam is self-refuting.”

    Tommykey

    July 10, 2008 at 11:51 pm

  9. Hi Tommy, the first sura was easy

    It might have been the particular translation I had, which was by an English convert to Islam with the unlikely name of Marmaduke Pickthall. If memory serves, the suras were in order from longest to shortest, so I just flat out gave up.

    In this post 9/11 world, I probably will try to read it again and learn more about Islam.

    As was addressed on another thread, I too distinguish between people who are Muslims from those who manifest a more fundamentalist and intolerant version of the faith.

    If modern Islam becomes more progressive, particularly with respect to women’s rights, it will be from the efforts of Muslim women achieving it within an Islamic context. That is, while they might find some inspiration from the West, they will best achieve their goals by promoting traditions in Islam that support them.

    Tommykey

    July 11, 2008 at 4:35 am

  10. Oh gaaaaawd, the Pickthall version. Say no more. I made my first attempt at reading that version back when I was in my early teens. Didn’t make it through a page. I think chapter 2 / The Cow did you in. The first surah is only 7 lines and give you this false confidence that the rest of the book will be a breeze.

    I agree with what you said about Muslim women achieving women’s rights from within. Will it happen in my lifetime? Things are not looking so hot.

    And as for distinguishing between Muslims and those who are fundamentalist Muslim, it’s the same as distinguishing between a Methodist and an evangelical. They’re reading the same text, and one person thinks it’s OK to cherry pick bits and pieces of what they link, while the other person is hellbent (heavenbent?) on following the Quran literally.

    Come to think of it, though, most of the liberal Muslims I know also believe the Quran is the literal word of God. They believe that the events in the Quran actually happened — Noah, Moses, David, Jesus, etc. I don’t really get the justification for following only the nice verses and ignoring the ones full of hate, especially when the damn thing says itself that you cannot ignore some verses and only believe others.

    kafirgirl

    July 11, 2008 at 12:12 pm

  11. ummm hi kafir girl before i start totally pwning all over your ideals and beliefs i just want to say
    1 your head is in the right place
    2 religion is a belief and no matter how hard you try you cant prove it wrong

    now lets begin shall we

    now in your jinn story you pointed out potions herbs and sumthin bout talking to the dead allow me to explain those things a re forbiden in islam and are punishable by death so i will point out to you your family isnt muslim they are murtad also they are wrong for believing in the whole domon thing i agree and either way muslims dont believe in those kinds of jinns they believ that there are good jinns who live far away fromm all humans under ground looney eh?
    and they believe in evil demons who wisper in your head
    for example you naturaly dont want to kill some one but when you get angry your first impulse is to hit something am i right?

    you say that god changes his words well if you had paid close attention he meant in the three holy books not just the quran and he also meant that he was teaching humanity the word of god in stages for example you dont teach a five year old trigonometry instear aditiont then subltraction then etc i also havve to explain that this sort of destroys your entire point of view

    you say he speaks in third person well allow me to explain how god himself wasnt actually appearing in the form of a giant head and speaking to mecha in third person rather his messenger muhamed saying the he said wutever he said i admitt that was a nice try of you and you almost found the fault of islam

    lets see wut else ……oh hear you say that god says christians go to hell and then he says the opposite
    well allow me to say that the christians didnt instantly add ont to the bible and taint it rather slowly they added chapters he meant the first of the christians same thing goes with the jews

    hmmmmmmmm………im totaly enjoying this you say that how could god be al mighty and not have control over evil well lets think about this god=creator 1god=1creator wich means one creator of all things ……..oh now class wut is a thing oooooh ooooh evil is a thing so god made evil
    and he sure as hell can destroy it the thing is he doesnt want to for reasons of his own you could say this is looney but this is god and after all wut is our feeble understanding compared to his

    at time i vaguely see you type that god makes things a bit widely ranged and stuff so that you can make it come true if you feel like it well i will explain to you that once muhamed was asked of the future of islam he said with great detail that islam will split into 73 sects alll but one will go to hell fire then he went on to describe each sect

    one of your most un educated mistakes was wondering wether or not hindus and sunkin pirates will come up in judgment day well i must say your forgetting the meaning of god=creator=almighty=allknowing=allcontroling and powerful wich basicly means he sure as hell can turn ashes into people

    thank you and if you have any more research deprived comments plz feel free to get pwned

    and dont get me wrong im totaly on your side its just that id like fellow atheists/agnostics to be knowledgable of their mistakes

    enlightenment is rare

    July 16, 2008 at 1:19 pm

  12. oh dear i forgot womens rights well ill pwn you later i got to go get layed or hight or sumthing by the way do u know where i can get weed or opium

    enlightenment is rare

    July 16, 2008 at 1:22 pm

  13. i must have also forgotten another thing
    muhammed didnt write the book he spoke it
    it was wriiten longafter his death and if your looking at translations of an already possibly edited book then mind me but all your research could just be a fucked up peace of shitty ugly fugly lie

    think before you answer me

    enlightenment is rare

    July 16, 2008 at 1:36 pm

  14. ummm hi kafir girl before i start totally pwning all over your ideals and beliefs i just want to say
    1 your head is in the right place
    2 religion is a belief and no matter how hard you try you cant prove it wrong

    I’m not trying to prove religion wrong — I don’t need to. This isn’t a site for Muslims who might want to deconvert. It’s me reading the Quran and recording my reactions to it.

    now in your jinn story you pointed out potions herbs and sumthin bout talking to the dead allow me to explain those things a re forbiden in islam and are punishable by death so i will point out to you your family isnt muslim they are murtad also they are wrong for believing in the whole domon thing i agree and either way muslims dont believe in those kinds of jinns they believ that there are good jinns who live far away fromm all humans under ground looney eh?

    I started out that section — in a different post, by the way — by saying I had crazies in my family. And then I described their craziness. Did I say I thought they were Muslim or murtad? No. Doesn’t matter to me whether they are or not, as I think the religion is a bunch of bullshit.

    for example you naturaly dont want to kill some one but when you get angry your first impulse is to hit something am i right?

    No. You’re not right. But thanks for assuming. My first impulse when I get angry is to sit down. When I get angry — which honestly isn’t that often, because I’m a laugh-your-cares-away kind of person — I physically get hot and start sweating. It helps if I sit down.

    you say that god changes his words well if you had paid close attention he meant in the three holy books not just the quran and he also meant that he was teaching humanity the word of god in stages for example you dont teach a five year old trigonometry instear aditiont then subltraction then etc i also havve to explain that this sort of destroys your entire point of view

    He meant that? Did he tell you himself? Do you have concrete evidence?

    As for the gradual buildup of religion, I don’t think what you’re saying makes any sense. If God is all powerful, he can do whatever he wants, right? You say so yourself below, when you try to take on the the pirates and Hindus joke. So by your reasoning, God can do whatever he wants, therefor he could teach trigonometry to a 5 year old, and he could make the right revelation the first time around instead of relying on abrogated verses to cover his ass.

    It seems way more plausible that man’s thinking evolved over time, his morals evolved over time, and he shaped the religion to benefit himself according to whatever the current belief happened to be.

    you say he speaks in third person well allow me to explain how god himself wasnt actually appearing in the form of a giant head and speaking to mecha in third person rather his messenger muhamed saying the he said wutever he said i admitt that was a nice try of you and you almost found the fault of islam

    OK, no idea what you’re trying to say here. Punctuation might help. The fault of Islam? Dude, a) you’re assuming that Islam has one singular fault that will make the entire religion unravel, and b) you’re assuming that I’m looking for it. I’m not — that ship has sailed. Do a little research. You’ll find that the command to “Say” that starts off so many verses was a later addition, most likely added when Uthman became caliph and compiled all the verses floating around.

    Also, Mohammed saying “God told me this in my head,” does not make him a credible source. For anything.

    lets see wut else ……oh hear you say that god says christians go to hell and then he says the opposite
    well allow me to say that the christians didnt instantly add ont to the bible and taint it rather slowly they added chapters he meant the first of the christians same thing goes with the jews

    Do you have some direct line to God that you’re not telling us about? How do you know what God meant? Especially when what you’re claiming God meant goes against his very words in the Quran? Where is your evidence?

    hmmmmmmmm………im totaly enjoying this you say that how could god be al mighty and not have control over evil well lets think about this god=creator 1god=1creator wich means one creator of all things ……..oh now class wut is a thing oooooh ooooh evil is a thing so god made evil
    and he sure as hell can destroy it the thing is he doesnt want to for reasons of his own you could say this is looney but this is god and after all wut is our feeble understanding compared to his

    First off, evil is not a “thing,” evil is a “concept.” And how do you know he does not want to destroy evil, anyway? Did he tell you this? For all you know, God is up there struggling to rid the world of evil every single day and failing.

    at time i vaguely see you type that god makes things a bit widely ranged and stuff so that you can make it come true if you feel like it well i will explain to you that once muhamed was asked of the future of islam he said with great detail that islam will split into 73 sects alll but one will go to hell fire then he went on to describe each sect

    Again, I would love to see your source on this one. Unless it’s a hadith, that is, as hadith are basically hearsay.

    one of your most un educated mistakes was wondering wether or not hindus and sunkin pirates will come up in judgment day well i must say your forgetting the meaning of god=creator=almighty=allknowing=allcontroling and powerful wich basicly means he sure as hell can turn ashes into people

    See, there’s this thing called “humor.” And that, there, is what we call a “joke.” You may have heard of it. If not, please, Google.

    thank you and if you have any more research deprived comments plz feel free to get pwned

    and dont get me wrong im totaly on your side its just that id like fellow atheists/agnostics to be knowledgable of their mistakes

    No, no. Thank you.

    Note: I read and replied to this before I read comments 12 and 13. If I had read those first, I wouldn’t have wasted my fucking time. *Sigh*

    kafirgirl

    July 16, 2008 at 2:20 pm

  15. “2. This is a book free from doubt and involution”[Quran 2:2]

    Allah has goofed up by calling Quran “This book”. We all know that there was no book when the ayats were being revealed. The aayats were compiled into “book” long after Muhammad’s death by Caliph Uthman.

    One other point here:
    The pagans challenged Muhammad “[017:093] “Or thou have a house adorned with gold, or thou mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in thy mounting until thou send down to us a book that we could read.” Note: PAGANS ASKED FOR A “BOOK” FROM GOD.
    All that Team Islam (Allah and Muhammad) managed as a response was
    “Say: “Glory to my Lord! Am I aught but a man,- an apostle?”
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/cgi-bin/quran/quran_search1.cgi?search_text=17%3A93&B1=Search

    Clear that Allah sent down no book.

    Anand

    July 21, 2008 at 3:04 am

  16. “106. When We cancel a message (sent to an earlier prophet) or throw it into oblivion, We replace it with one better or one similar. Do you not know that God has power over all things? ”

    Note the words in brackets:”(sent to an earlier prophet)”. The translator realised that this doctrine of abrogation spells disaster for Quran.Imagine Allah abrogating one verse of the Quran with another. That is why he helps Allah with those words in brackets.

    “[022:052] It happened to every messenger and prophet We ever sent. Whenever they desired (and received a verse) Shaitan put his own spin (interpretation) upon it. But Allah removes whatever Shaitan casts. And then He confirms and strengthens His verses. Allah is All-knowing and All-wise.”

    Now notice that not only Allah cancels his own verses, he cancels verses revealed by Shaitan as well. Now this raises the a question: ALLAH=SHAITAN?

    Anand

    July 24, 2008 at 8:23 am

  17. “62. Surely the believers and the Jews, Nazareans and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and whosoever does right, shall have his reward with his Lord and will neither have fear nor regret.”

    1.That means we atheists will not be rewarded for our good deeds as we do not believe in God and the Last day.
    2.Allah(Muhammad) never ventured out of Arabia.So, he is aware of only religions existing in Arabia.He is not aware of religions like hinduism/buddhism which existed in India.

    Anand

    July 24, 2008 at 8:27 am

  18. “34. Remember, when We asked the angels to bow in homage to Adam, they all bowed but Iblis, who disdained and turned insolent, and so became a disbeliever.”

    Notice one thing here. Angels are told to prostrate to Adam and not to Eve.Important thing is Eve is punished even before she committed any fault. And without any hearing/show cause. Go over ayats 30-35 of Sura 2 again and the sequence of events and this is what we find.

    Anand

    July 25, 2008 at 12:58 am

  19. ayats 30-35 of Sura 2 confirm Allah’s Misogynist character.

    Anand

    July 25, 2008 at 12:59 am

  20. “Then He said to Adam: “Convey to them their names.” ”
    http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/04/how-many-species-did-adam-name.html

    Thanx kafirgirl and fellow atheists for enlightening me on how absurd this Adam and Eve story. Every time I read the story or visit one of ur links, I discover a new absurdity/stupidity.

    “About ten days ago, the Integrated Taxonomic Information System (ITIS) recorded its millionth species. But that leaves another 750,000 known species that have yet to be included. And no one knows (except maybe Adam and God) how many unknown species are still out there. Some estimates put it at as many as ten million or so (not including extinct species).”

    So, even know God and Adam wouldnt have finishing teaching, learning and naming exercise.

    Anand

    July 25, 2008 at 6:56 am

  21. im srry but i had alot of other things on my mind ide give you a long boring answer as to my understanding of god and what he means to say or send or wutever

    any way ive read the quran and studied its rules and principles along with many other holy books thats how i know wut god means to send

    also my friend is a phsycologist this tendency to laugh your problems away is unhealthy

    ide apretiate if youd stop taking the words of these books in a litteral sense both you and i know its a fairy tail and stories like this have habits of speaking in riddles

    are you a lawer? just wanted to know

    as for the fault dont undermine the fault as it does exist within the writings of the book and indeed it proves it to be …………folly

    thank you for you reply though but im not sure you got wut most of the things i wrote meant but i blame my self for that

    oh and i have a suggestion read an original copy or sumthing
    all of it
    thoroughly

    before you come to conclusions its wut i did

    enlightenment is rare

    July 28, 2008 at 1:25 pm

  22. if your not a lawer then what are you ide really like to know
    i believe you make ample quantities of money

    enlightenment is rare

    July 28, 2008 at 1:29 pm

  23. im not sure where i should put this comment but i dont plan on exploring this site

    i just have suggestion sort you should try to incourage your fans to question you as it would open more doors for your study on islam and religion in general

    enlightenment is rare

    July 28, 2008 at 1:37 pm

  24. any way ive read the quran and studied its rules and principles along with many other holy books thats how i know wut god means to send

    No. That’s how you know what you think God meant to send. Which may be completely different from what the next person thinks. It’s your interpretation of the religion.

    also my friend is a phsycologist this tendency to laugh your problems away is unhealthy

    That’s your friend’s opinion. Which a) make zero sense and b) means nothing to me, regardless.

    To be totally honest, I’m not really sure what the hell you’re playing at. You think I should read the Quran the way you read it, and that will make me understand it and believe in God? No thanks. Why don’t you go read it that way, and I’ll continue to read it cover to cover as I planned.

    It’s none of your business what I do for a living and how much money I make. And your suggestions kind of mean jack shit to me, because you can’t even take the time to make a decent reply to an argument you started.

    kafirgirl

    July 28, 2008 at 2:22 pm

  25. Pagan, I’m not registered at that forum, and can’t access it.

    kafirgirl

    July 31, 2008 at 1:30 pm

  26. When I find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and makes me feel elated, coz my soul feels like flying, then I accept it and live it and live up to it. Not until then. And U can have an army of Gods, all sorts from all religions, numbered or not, known and unknown, fling bolts of lightning at me, their flames of wrath licking at my feet, I still won’t believe them. I owe it to myself. Assumed and assorted, Gods can take a hike. God is till my breath is, my breath isn’t nothing is, not even God.

    I may find god in a misty mountain side, or a child suckling his toe, or making bubbles, or an overcast sky with a shaft of golden light draping itself over the knee-high grass, or in a waxing moon as it glides slowly across the sky, hiding behind clouds, till they disperse so it may bathe the countryside in an eerie light, the lapping waves at midnight, the soft breeze caressing and wisping … or even in a cute puppy ( I know, I just heard the Prophet cough and clear his throat, did this infidel just mention a dog ! ” Will no one rid me of this heathen? ” … relax Prophet, I know one of Ur descendants and by association U should not touch me … it’s plain ethics and morals … after all it’s my business to antagonize and Urs to forgive … U can have me beheaded though )

    Anubis

    August 1, 2008 at 12:36 am

  27. well allow me to explain how god himself wasnt actually appearing in the form of a giant head and speaking to mecha in third person rather his messenger muhamed

    Why not appear as a giant head? Why not just come down, reveal himself and get things in order? If he wants people to worship him (and he does, the Holy Books agree on 1 thing: G*d has an Ego that requires stroking!) and he wants to eliminate doubt then appear as a giant head!

    This messenger deal doesn’t jive anymore, Muhammed got away with it hundreds of years ago – but now we don’t take people who claim G*d talks to them all that seriously.

    You also state that G*d gave humanity the three books so we could progress through his phases. That said, why then does he scorn those who do not progress? The Jews and Chrisitians who did not convert quicky lose favour, becoming ‘unbelievers’, forced to pay Jizya, forced to live as second-class citizens paying extortion to the Muslim overlords for their so-called “protection” so that “they will feel subded” (if that’s not the genesis of mafia style extortion WHAT IS?!) . Does G*d believe the student is at fault, is there no fault attributed to the teacher (& what about remedial programs…I mean, learn or die sure is harsh)…

    I don’t know – He does not sound like the benevolent lover of all his creations to me.

    winglessblog

    August 19, 2008 at 5:03 pm

  28. Hey wingless, what’s with the G*d?

    kafirgirl

    August 19, 2008 at 5:06 pm

  29. @Kafirgirl on winglessblog

    The G*d thing is a Jewish superstition.
    They will not vocalize the name YHWH and omit the vowel even in translated words for god.

    kereng

    August 21, 2008 at 1:41 pm

  30. Ohhh it’s one of those people who can apply critical thinking to those other religions but not to his own.

    Thanks, kereng.

    kafirgirl

    August 21, 2008 at 1:54 pm

  31. No wait, Alcohol is a-OK. And it’s a sign of God!

    67. And in fruits of the date-palm and the vine, from which you obtain inebriating drinks and excellent food. In this indeed are signs for those who understand.

    ????

    Are you talking about verse 2:67??I can’t find such a verse..!!

    002.067
    YUSUFALI: And remember Moses said to his people: “Allah commands that ye sacrifice a heifer.” They said: “Makest thou a laughing-stock of us?” He said: “Allah save me from being an ignorant (fool)!”
    PICKTHAL: And when Moses said unto his people: Lo! Allah commandeth you that ye sacrifice a cow, they said: Dost thou make game of us? He answered: Allah forbid that I should be among the foolish!
    SHAKIR: And when Musa said to his people: Surely Allah commands you that you should sacrifice a cow; they said: Do you ridicule us? He said: I seek the protection of Allah from being one of the ignorant.
    AHMED aLI :67. Remember, when Moses said to his people: “God demands that you sacrifice a cow,” they said: “Are you making fun of us?” And he said: “God forbid that I be of the ignorant

    Did i miss something???

    Nimmy

    August 23, 2008 at 2:55 am

  32. Nope you didn’t miss something, I did. I forgot to add chapter 16 before the 67. So it’s 16:17. Here you go:

    Ahmed Ali: (67) And in fruits of the date-palm and the vine, from which you obtain inebriating drinks and excellent food. In this indeed are signs for those who understand.

    Pickthall: (67) And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence ye derive strong drink and (also) good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for people who have sense.

    Yusuf Ali: (67) And from the fruit of the date-palm and the vine, ye get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise.

    Shakir: (67) And of the fruits of the palms and the grapes– you obtain from them intoxication and goodly provision; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who ponder.

    Thanks for catching that. I’ll make the correction.

    *Edit: fixed. You can find more contradictions here if you’re interested. http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html

    kafirgirl

    August 23, 2008 at 9:47 am

  33. :) fine!..I hope you’ll be patient enough to read my comment.Rememebr,im not trying to preach or convert,but just sharing what i know..

    Allah abrogates a verse when the ruling doesn’t apply anymore. He promised this in the Qur’an:

    Whatever a verse do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten we bring a better one or similar to it. Know you that Allah is able to do all things. (2:106)

    The gradual prohibition of alcohol is an example of an abrogation of Qur’anic verses by other Qur’anic verses.

    Sale of alcohol was so common that the name for merchant, became synonymous with the seller of khamr. Khamr shops and bars were open 24 hours a day.

    The first Qur’anic verse (chronologically) to deal with alcohol was revealed in Mecca before the hijra:

    “And from the fruit of the date-palm and the vine ye get out wholesome drink and food: behold in this also is a Sign for those who are wise.” (16:67)

    After this verse, some Muslims started to wonder about the correctness of taking khamr.Revealed in Madinah a few years later, was this verse:

    “They ask thee concerning wine and gambling, say: “In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit…”(2:219)

    Most Muslims continued to drink but some began to abstain or reduce their intake.

    The third mention of alcohol by Allah (SWT) in the Qur’an occurred as follows:

    “O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say, …” (4:43)

    Since the prayers are spread throughout the day, it is difficult if not impossible, for a good Muslim to ever get drunk.The religious brotherhood of Muslims helped encourage abstinence from alcohol in those days.Since there were no drugs in those days to help ease the pain of withdrawal symptoms, alcoholic Muslims began to slowly reduce their intake. Honey was given to these alcoholics to help them restore vitamins to their bodies and ease the detoxification process. These two techniques (slow withdrawal and honey) have been shown in recent times to be effective and helpful in treating alcoholics

    During this period of weaning from alcohol, khamr sellers also began looking for a new means of livelihood.

    “…The devil wants only to cast among you enmity and hatred by means of strong drink and games of chance and to turn you from remembering Allah and from prayer. Will you then desist.” (5:90-91)

    These verses are the ones that declared total prohibition of alcohol to the Muslims. After this verse was revealed, the Muslim citizens of Madinah immediately began to spill their stocks of wine into the sand and streets; so that the wine ran through the streets of Madinah. Individuals who up till that moment were enjoying guiltlessly a glass of wine, quickly emptied their cups on the ground and spit out the alcohol from their mouths. They rushed to make ablutions in order to purify themselves.

    I hope that answers it all

    Good day..Do visit my blog..

    Nimmy

    August 23, 2008 at 2:21 pm

  34. Nice cut and paste job from http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/booze/alcohol_about.htm
    Notice the bottom line:
    “This information may be reprinted for educational purposes, as long as credit is given to the author, if the article is republished in its entirety. The author retains the legal rights to the work.” You should have left those two sentences in.

    The third mention of alcohol by Allah (SWT),
    that’s Star Wars Tales, right? Wikipedia says.

    These two techniques (slow withdrawal and honey) have been shown in recent times to be effective and helpful in treating alcoholics
    Where are her sources, please?

    After this verse was revealed, the Muslim citizens of Madinah immediately began to spill their stocks of wine into the sand and streets; so that the wine ran through the streets of Madinah. Individuals who up till that moment were enjoying guiltlessly a glass of wine, quickly emptied their cups on the ground and spit out the alcohol from their mouths. They rushed to make ablutions in order to purify themselves.
    And flying monkeys sprang from their butts, shitting golden bricks with which the faithful constructed a magnificent temple, where the dead came to be healed, and angels played a heavenly chorus of non-stop thrash metal.
    Christ–if you can’t speak for yourself, at least try not to be gullible.

    watercat

    August 23, 2008 at 5:38 pm

  35. Hey hey Watercat,im not here to fight with you..

    Well,i wonder why was it a ‘surprise’ or ‘irritating’ for you that I copy paste..In my earlier comment,i had provided link.This time i forgot.As simple as that!.Afterall,am i dumb enough to delude anybody into thinking that I wrote all that,when the information is just a click away:) Also,i just took some lines,not just gross copy paste!

    Lets not talk silly.Coming back to the verses we were talking about,I wonder why you are now talking about honey and draining wine..We are talking about verses and not the context or history,in the main point.

    I am talking about author’s words “No wait, Alcohol is a-OK. And it’s a sign of God!
    67. And in fruits of the date-palm and the vine, from which you obtain inebriating drinks and excellent food. In this indeed are signs for those who understand.”

    I hope it is clear what that verse is talking about.The first one was informing us that fruits can give you intoxicating drinks,the second verse in context,a precaution to drunkards then,and then the final verse forbiding it completely..There isn’t any contradiction.

    Good day to all

    Please visit my blog

    http://nimis540.wordpress.com/

    Nimmy

    August 24, 2008 at 1:36 am

  36. Nimmy said:

    Allah abrogates a verse when the ruling doesn’t apply anymore. He promised this in the Qur’an:

    Whatever a verse do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten we bring a better one or similar to it. Know you that Allah is able to do all things. (2:106)

    Yes, we already know that Allah abrogated “There is no compulsion in religion…” (2:256) and replaced it with “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them…” (9:5) and “Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.” (9:29)

    No compulsion in religion was abrogated with fight and kill non-Muslims (includes the Jews and Christians, not just the pagans) until they convert to Islam or willingly pay the Jizya tax and admit they are inferior to Muslims and live in a state of subjection. Chapter 9 has lead to huge losses of life throughout the world as Islam expanded at the point of its sword. It only took 50 years after Muhammad’s death for Islamic jihads to reach the western coast of Africa. If Islam were a truly peaceful religion it wouldn’t need to use violence and intimidation for people to see it as a clear path distinct from error. Islam is not peaceful, even though some — if not most — Muslims are. Islam is not free from error, but enshrined in it.

    Thanks for playing.

    BTW, scientific studies have shown that consuming moderate amounts of wine does indeed have health benefits, but leave it to Allah to deny you of that. Sorry, but science trumps religion.

    Michael

    August 24, 2008 at 8:50 am

  37. What Michael said.

    Also what you’re doing, Nimmy, is what we so often get accused of doing ourselves: you’re taking the verse out of context. You’re looking at that one little line and then using someone else’s weak argument to try to support it. Well, your entire argument (or the argument of whoever actually wrote it) falls apart pretty easily. Here’s the verse in tact with the verses around it:

    Chapter 16:

    (65) God sends down water from the skies and quickens the dead earth to a new birth. Here is a sign for those who listen.
    (66) And surely in cattle there is a lesson for you: We give you a drink from the extract of food in their bellies and blood-purest milk so delicious to drink;
    (67) And in fruits of the date-palm and the vine, from which you obtain inebriating drinks and excellent food. In this indeed are signs for those who understand.
    (68 ) Your Lord predisposed the bees to make their hives in mountains, trees and trellices,
    (69) And suck from all fruits and flit about the unrestricted paths of their Lord. A drink of various hues comes out of their bellies which contains medicine for men. In this is a sign for those who reflect.

    This entire passage is talking about things that are signs of God. Good, pure, excellent things like milk from cattle, honey, rain, AND ALCOHOL. Nobody would have questioned a damn thing about alcohol when that verse was revealed, because it’s listed among those thing that are “for those who understand.”

    Also you say Allah abrogates a verse and replaces it with a new one. First off, you cannot prove that Allah exists, so for all intents and purposes it’s not Allah but Mohammed who abrogates a verse. Not an impressive feat for a man to change his mind later and go back on his word. Also, for arguments sake, lets just say there is a God. If this God abrogates verses, it goes against his claim that he’s all-knowing and all-powerful, because if he’s all-knowing he would have known how to do it correctly the first time so that everyone understood and agreed. And if he was all-powerful, he could just snap his fingers and make everyone obey. Then there’s the whole pre-destiny issue. Not that any of this matters because you can’t prove that God exists.

    I’ll check out your blog if I feel like it (though honestly I see enough Muslim apologist writing as is).

    kafirgirl

    August 24, 2008 at 9:40 am

  38. @Micheal,wonder what makes you easily jump from a chapter to another one..that too,not quoting what is after and before it..I have already explained as to what is all this “slay where ever you find them”..Well,in war i didn’t know that you guys go kiss your enemies cheeks instead of fighting them..New war ethics?Since when??
    Sadly for you,the very next verse talks about “Accompany enemies safely to safe place,it they rpepnt”..
    Well,do you guys do that in war..Do you take your enemies safeguarede,if they surrender..??

    I am talking with an open mind..there isn’t anything complicated in Quran,unless and until you read it with open mind and read what is after and before each verse..

    Nimmy

    August 24, 2008 at 2:57 pm

  39. Nimmy, you said “,im … just sharing what i know…” followed by a someone else’s words. That’s what we call lying: you’re not sharing what you know, you’re sharing what someone else said. And forget ‘knowing’, because when you come right down to it all we have are opinions. So:

    (1) I know Allah abrogates a verse.
    (2) I know “Allah abrogates a verse.”
    (3) I know “Allah abrogates a verse (Bangsa-islam).”

    Sentence (1) says your opinion is; something.
    Sentence (2) says your opinion is that somebody said something, somewhere, sometime.
    Sentence (3) says your opinion is that a specific statement was made by a specific person.

    Saying [you think Allah does something] is not the same as saying that [you think Bangsa-islam wrote something]. You could have said, “(my opinion is that) Bangsa-islam is correct to say “bla bla bla”. That would have been honest, and clear, and to the point. You believers never do that, and that’s why you piss us off. Do you get it?

    Instead of saying what you think, you just repeat what someone else thought: here you say that Bangsa-islam says that the koran says that mohammed said that Allah said X. Why not think for yourself instead of recycling fifth-hand gossip? Did Allah say anything? Obviously, no. So why did Mohammed say he did? Obviously for the same reason Charles Manson said it, Jim Jones said it, David Koresh, Shoko Asahara, Joseph Smith, and the guy in my hometown who got arrested last week for theft and raping underage girls. From your blog, you seem intelligent and concerned about violence against women, so why do you–not somebody else but you–exempt this particular abuser from the pattern?

    watercat

    August 24, 2008 at 3:05 pm

  40. Nimmy said, “what makes you easily jump from a chapter to another one” … Uhm, because you have to read one and then another? Seriously, I can’t read them all simultaneously.

    And Nimmy, what makes you think a verse from Medina doesn’t abrogate one from Mecca? Don’t you know that Allah can do such things?

    SHAKIR: Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things? (2:106)

    Do you not know the meaning of abrogation? Here, I’ll help out:

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abrogation

    Michael

    August 24, 2008 at 7:04 pm

  41. @KafirGirl,there is any least compulsion that you visit my blog:) Make sure you don’t visit it if you dn’t like my comments here..

    Honestly,i don’t understand what is the big deal here..Maybe its bcoz I am rather ignorant..My dumb brain tells me that ,16:67 From the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine as well as a good provision. In that is a sign for a people who reason..

    There are numerous verses in Glorious Quran which says,you practice idolatry,does this mean idolatry is not prohibited !!

    Carefully read the verse..You make wine As Well As GOOD Provision.
    Good provision is separated from wine ..

    Sex is not prohibited by Glorious Quran Adultery is …Fruits are not prohibited,alcohol is..Fermentation is prohibited for consumption to get intoxicated..

    Sorry,this is all what I know..Either you take it or leave it.This is not a battle to be won by arguing..

    P.S :I am afraid of atheists who eat babies:) lol..no offence meant,but Im intimidated when left out in single with a bunch on intelligent people,who have read whole Quran ,on the other side..I have no knowledge enough to reason with you..Just tried to say what is MY thinking.

    Now,pls stop this silly ‘copy-paste’ bla bla..Both you and me are well aware of infinite no: of resources available on web.I could have cop-paste from some hard-core islamic site,talked bad about atheists and run away..Now,pls don’t punish me for stopping by and trying to talk.:)

    Good day.

    Nimmy

    August 25, 2008 at 1:41 am

  42. I’m re-posting the verse so you can follow my rebuttal. It’s an easy one because your argument seriously holds no water.

    (65) God sends down water from the skies and quickens the dead earth to a new birth. Here is a sign for those who listen.
    (66) And surely in cattle there is a lesson for you: We give you a drink from the extract of food in their bellies and blood-purest milk so delicious to drink;
    (67) And in fruits of the date-palm and the vine, from which you obtain inebriating drinks and excellent food. In this indeed are signs for those who understand.
    (68 ) Your Lord predisposed the bees to make their hives in mountains, trees and trellices,
    (69) And suck from all fruits and flit about the unrestricted paths of their Lord. A drink of various hues comes out of their bellies which contains medicine for men. In this is a sign for those who reflect.

    Nimmy, but your logic, you’re saying the inebriating drinks are prohibited but the excellent food is not. One prohibited thing in the midst of all these other things that are allowed. Just because there isn’t the qualifier “excellent” in front of inebriating drinks.

    So using your logic, the bees are also forbidden because it doesn’t say “excellent” before bees. Honey is also forbidden because it doesn’t say “good”. Rain is not good because it doesn’t say “good” in front of it. Milk is delicious, so it’s OK — yay! — but cattle is bad because it doesn’t say “excellent cattle.” That’s YOUR argument at work there.

    You’re trying to twist the verse to fit the Islam you were indoctrinated with. Even when its written out in plain English. Denial, denial, denial.

    And as for the sex is allowed / adultery is not, find me a single verse in the Quran where it lists adultery smack dab in the middle of things that are to allowed as this verse does. Find me a verse that says some like this —
    These things are the signs of God: prayer, zakat, cleanliness, adultery, monogamous sex with your wife, wudu, fruit, bees, honey.

    If you’re going to make a claim, support it with evidence.

    kafirgirl

    August 25, 2008 at 8:28 am

  43. @Kafirgirl,we are just playing hide and seek..

    See,what is the verse”…from which you obtain inebriating drinks and excellent food. In this indeed are signs for those who understand.”

    Here,Allah is talking about two opposite things,intoxicatig drinks and excellent food..And then telling us “this indeed are signs for those who understand”..That is,we humans can reason out which is good and bad,which is to be choosen and which is to be rejected..

    Even if one doubt whether which is good and bad,whether its intoxicating drinks or excellent food,we have another verse which tells us,”They ask thee concerning wine and gambling, say: “In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit…”(2:219)”


    Find me a verse that says some like this —
    These things are the signs of God: prayer, zakat, cleanliness, adultery, monogamous sex with your wife, wudu, fruit, bees, honey.

    If you’re going to make a claim, support it with evidence.”

    I don’t intent to make up a verse just for the sake of it..Nor am i knowledgeable enough to quote single verse from entire Quran..I DON’T KNOW…

    I am just talking about alcochol..It is forbidden and there is no so-called contradiction..

    Nimmy

    August 25, 2008 at 9:05 am

  44. i can’t speak up for everyone, but the contradiction in that verse with the other verse is glaringly obvious. The adultery thing was one of YOUR arguments to support YOUR belief. So the burden of proof is on YOU. If you cannot find such a verse in the Quran, then your argument falls apart.

    What you’re doing is spewing your personal brand of Islam — which I’m sure is very lovely and happy and feel-good. You’re making claims that you cannot support — and you’re doing so in the face of evidence against your own claims.

    Arguing with someone like that is a waste of my time.

    kafirgirl

    August 25, 2008 at 9:09 am

  45. “Arguing with someone like that is a waste of my time.”…ok fine,don’t argue with me…

    “What you’re doing is spewing your personal brand of Islam “..any sane person will say the same as i said..unless you go and talk to some fat Mullahs

    “If you cannot find such a verse in the Quran, then your argument falls apart.”..

    I don’t really understand the type of “These things are the signs of God: prayer, zakat, cleanliness, adultery, monogamous sex with your wife, wudu, fruit, bees, honey.” verse you are talking about..Sorry for my ignorance.

    “You’re making claims that you cannot support”..I though I wrote in plain simple english as to convey my thoughts..

    Good day!

    Nimmy

    August 25, 2008 at 11:38 am

  46. ok fine,don’t argue with me…

    Then what’s the point of you commenting on my blog? What are you hoping to achieve here?

    ..any sane person will say the same as i said..unless you go and talk to some fat Mullahs

    I beg to differ. I think any sane person would be an atheist and not buy in to the whole invisible man in the sky thing. That’s just my humble opinion though.

    “You’re making claims that you cannot support”..I though I wrote in plain simple english as to convey my thoughts..

    When you make a claim, you need to support some evidence to back that claim up. IE, if verse X is not true, then you need to show verses Y and Z that demonstrate how verse X is not true. Otherwise you’re just writing something you believe without any evidence that it’s actually true. If I say the sky is blue and show you evidence that the sky is blue, and you say the sky is red, then you better come with some evidence that the sky is red. That’s how an argument works.

    kafirgirl

    August 25, 2008 at 11:56 am

  47. OK, you know what? I’ll just GIVE that one to you, even though I think you’re absolutely wrong and illogical. Lets just say, hypothetically, that I’m wrong about that one contradiction. There is no contradiction in the Quran about drinking alcohol — no doubt whatsoever.

    What about all those other contradictions I pointed out in this post? Do you have anything to say about that?

    kafirgirl

    August 25, 2008 at 12:19 pm

  48. sez wimmy;

    ch 16 tells us alcohol is bad. Later verses abrogate that, say it is not bad. So it’s bad.

    Christ, it’s like talking to a door.

    watercat

    August 25, 2008 at 2:18 pm

  49. “What about all those other contradictions I pointed out in this post? Do you have anything to say about that?”

    Just for instance,let us talk about

    253. Of all these apostles We have favoured some over the others.
    285. We make no distinction between the apostles.
    Ta-da! Doubt. Complexity

    First verse explains that Allah Himself has excelled Prophets over other in rank. For example, He spoke to Moses (pbuh); made Jesus (pbuh) speak in the cradle, etc. Each Prophet has a special rank to Allah.

    The second verse explains that we as Muslims have no right to differentiate between the Prophets by claim one was superior to the other.

    The Messenger (Muhammad SAW) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allâh, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say), “We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers” and they say, “We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all).” [Qur’an 2: 285]

    This is also in relation to the earlier verse in the same Surah:

    Say: “We believe in God and what has been sent down to us, what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob, and the Tribes; what Moses and Jesus were given; and what all of the Prophets were given by their Lord. We do not differentiate between any of them. We are Muslims submitted to Him.” [Qur’an 2:136]

    Is that clear..i.e,Allah has different ranks for different prophets,but humandsshould not make any distinction between any of them.

    Good day

    Nimmy

    August 26, 2008 at 4:04 am

  50. give its credit, there is no “doubt” (the word) in anywhere else of the book. read it on some islamic sites and laughed my ass off, they say dont take anything literal in quran and make this mathematical assumption saying there are doubts but not doubt word.

    abrasil

    December 8, 2008 at 12:21 pm


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