KafirGirl

We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

16: The Bees (Part I — Middle fingers & farty noises.)

with 154 comments

I’m at a friend’s cabin for the weekend.  The same cabin I was at the day I made my very first post way back in July.  Nostalgic!  Everyone else is out running errands, but I opted to stay behind and blog by the warmth of the fireplace.  Not because my calves are killing me from the punishment I inflicted upon myself at the gym yesterday.  No, sir.  I stayed because I care.  About the Quran.  And writing about it.  Yup.  Nothing to do with my inability to walk.  It’s Quran time.

Chapter 16 is called The Bees.  Why?  Because of the following verses:

(68) Your Lord predisposed the bees to make their hives in mountains, trees and trellices,
(69) And suck from all fruits and flit about the unrestricted paths of their Lord. A drink of various hues comes out of their bellies which contains medicine for men. In this is a sign for those who reflect.

Bees and honey are a sign of God’s existence.  Honey — like urine — contains medicine, so don’t go to the doctor or anything.  Just drink some pee mixed with honey and all your various ailments will melt away!  Huzzah!  You can find it at the supermarket, right next to the snake oil.

If honey’s not enough to convince you of God’s awesomeness, check out the next line:

(70) It is God who creates you, then makes you die; and some reach the age of dotage when they forget what they had known before. God is indeed all-knowing and all-powerful.

Somewhere in between creating you and killing you, God makes you senile.  And that is what makes him all-knowing and all-powerful.  Oh, sure.  That makes perfect sense.  Alzheimer’s disease is a sign of God.

But I’m getting too far ahead of myself.  Lets start at the beginning.

(1) THE DECREE of GOD will surely come; so do not try to hasten it: Too glorious and high is He for what they associate with Him.

Oh.  Em.  Gee.  Conceited much?  I noticed something this past week while talking to a couple of friends at work.  The people who talk about sex the most are getting laid the least.  Pretty sure the same principles apply to God’s glory talk.

(2) He sends the angels with revelation by His command, to any of His creatures as He please, (saying): “Warn that there is no god but I, so fear Me.”

Ding ding ding ding!  Contradiction alert!  Read that verse again.  God says he sends down angels with revelation — ie the Quran — to warn people that he’s the one and only.  Got that?  Now check out these verses from the last chapter, and be prepared to gloat:

(6) And yet they say: “You, to whom this Exposition has been sent are surely possessed of the Devil.
(7) If you are a man of truth, why can’t you bring the angels to us?”
(8) But then We never send the angels down save with the purpose (of enforcing their doom), after which they will not be given more respite.

Ha!  Ha, I say, ha!  When the people asked Mohammed why he can’t bring some angels to back up his stories, God conveniently reveals that he never — I repeat, never — sends down angels unless it’s for destruction. Busted!  You’d think with all-knowing, all-powerful business he shoves down our throats every other verse, he’d realize that you never say never.  Not unless you want to contradict yourself and look like a total fucking asshole.  Which, if you’ve been reading along, God does a lot.  Case in point:

(4) Man He created from a drop of semen; and still he becomes an open contender.

You sick of this one yet?  I am.  So much so that it makes me want to claw out my fucking eyeballs each time I have to read a “man was created from x” verse.  Which, you know, is a lot.  This book is hella repetitive, remember?  I won’t even bother discussing it.  I’ll just post a link to the Skeptic’s Annotated Quran’s convenient chart.  You can keep your eyeballs, too.

Verses 5 through 8 talk about horses, mules & cows — how God created them just so we could benefit from them.

(5) He created the cattle from whom you get warm clothing and (other) advantages, and some you eat.
(6) There is life and cheer for you as you drive them home in the evening, and lead them out in the morning to graze.

OK, whatever.  I’m a total city girl, so I can’t say I find much life or cheer in cattle.  I do enjoy leather goods and a big, juicy steak now and then.  So, I guess, thanks for that God.  Although technically I should be thanking the cows.  Or apologizing to them — I’m not really sure which they’d prefer.  Anyway, God is really, really proud of the cows because he can’t shut the fuck up about them, already:

(7) They carry your burdens to lands so distant you could not have reached without much hardship. Indeed your Lord is compassionate and kind.
(8) He created horses, mules and donkeys for riding and for splendour. He created other things too which you do not know.

Notice how trains, cars and planes are missing from that list?  Notice, dammit!  Now, an apologist might say something like, “It’s all mentioned in that last sentence about “other things too which you do not know,” blah blah blah, I’m a fucking idiot.” OK.  Still not buying it.

Look.  I know that there are many things that exist that I do not know about.  I realize that every time I watch a nature documentary or visit a different country.  I am surprised by new things all the damn time.  So the only thing that sentence says to me is that Mohammed admits there are things out there that he does not know about.  He doesn’t go into details about these things because — duh! — he doesn’t fucking know.  Apologists will be all, “Wooo wooooo! Mysterious!  Cryptic!  It could mean anything.” Well, yeah.  And?

End rant.  Moving right along.

This next verse sounds all scientific and stuff.  It will blow your mind:

(15) He placed stablisers in the earth so that while it revolves you live undisturbed, and rivers and tracks so that you may find your way;
(16) As well as many other signs, as by the stars (you) find direction.

OK, fine.  It won’t really blow your mind.  I just wanted to get you all greased up for the footnote.  See, in my copy of the Quran, there’s a little asterisk next to “stabilisers in the earth.”  If you follow that footnote to the bottom of the page, it says this:

* See note on page 239.

Well, shit.  That’s anticlimactic.  Ahmed Ali’s a tease.  Here’s what the footnote on page 239 says:

Stabilisers, rawasi, are actually mountains in the interior of the earth made evident by modern geophysicists who mapped the earth’s interior.  At some places they are 6 miles high and 6000 miles wide with a valley as deep and wide, situated between the liquid core and the crust of the earth. Their function is to stabilise the crust and rotation of the earth. (Reader’s Digest, May 1987).

What.  The.  Hell?  My brain just exploded.  The Quran — the word of God, himself — uses the Reader’s Digest* as a source?!  And not just Reader’s Digest, but Reader’s Digest from 19-fucking-87?  Are you kidding me?  No wonder Ahmed Ali tried to bury that at the end of the chapter where it might be ignored.  He’s pulled over some pretty dumb tricks before, but this one wins.  Hands down.  He just shat out the last of his credibility and flushed it all down the craphole.

By the way, other Quran translations don’t even mention “stabilisers” or the earth’s rotation:

A. J. Arberry
(15) And He cast on the earth firm mountains, lest it shake with you, and rivers and ways; so haply you will be guided;
Pickthall
(15) And He hath cast into the earth firm hills that it quake not with you, and streams and roads that ye may find a way.
Yusuf Ali
(15) And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;

Mountains and hills. What do they do?  They keep the earth from moving when you jump up and down.  …you can’t make this shit up.  You just can’t.  Wipe the tears from your eyes, babies, because it just keeps on going.  We’ve got 98 more chapters chock-fucking-full of wisdom like this!  Whoo!  Brace yourselves!

You godless heathen types will find the next verse interesting:

(22) Your God is one God. But the hearts of those who believe not in the life to come are filled with denial, and they are puffed up with pride.

Uhhh, really?  I’ve always kind of seen it the other way.  The people I know who don’t believe are filled with awe at the very idea that they exist and have one shot at rocking life.  They’re open to the idea that they’re wrong, but go with evidence over stupidity.  And the ones who believe tend to be full of foolish pride and live in denial, even in the face of evidence.  *Coughcreationistscough*  Just sayin’.

Lets see where he’s going with this:

(23) Surely God knows what they hide and what they disclose. He certainly does not love the proud.
(24) For when they are asked: “What has your Lord sent down?” they say: “Tales of long ago.”

Ohhh, where to start.

  1. God doesn’t love the proud?  Well, he must really fucking hate himself then.  Ain’t nobody more proud of himself than God, what with all the patting-himself-on-the-back and greasing-up-his-own-dick that goes on in the Quran.
  2. No.  We do not say “Tales of long ago,” when asked what God sent down.  That would be a history book.  Here’s what we would say:  “God sent down fiction.”  And then we’d add, “Because he is fiction.”  And perhaps we might toss up a couple of middle fingers and make a farty noise with our mouths.  By we, of course, I mostly just mean me.  I realize there are atheists out there who are nicer than I am.

Anyway, we’re all going to hell, blahblahblah (damn our insufferable pride).  Hell has gates and we will dwell there forever (16:29).  The asskissers who say “God sent down the best,” (16:30) will go to heaven.  And — big fucking surprise here —  heaven has gardens and streams of water (16:31).  Eyeballs.  I’m gouging ‘em out.  Did I mention this book is really, really repetitive?

(35) The idolaters say: “If God had willed we would not have worshipped anything apart from Him, nor would our fathers have done, nor would we have forbidden any thing without His (leave).” So had the people done before them. Therefore it is binding on the prophets to convey the message in clearest terms.

Yeeeeah.  Anyone else think the prophets have done a piss poor job at conveying the message in clearest terms?  Anyone??  I know it’s not just me and the idolaters.  If the prophets existed — and I’m gonna go ahead and throw out that I don’t think most did — they seriously sucked at their jobs.  But I guess you can’t blame them all that much.  Look at the material they’re working with here:

(63) By God, We sent apostles to many a people before you, but Satan made their acts seem attractive to them, and he is their friend this day, and a painful torment awaits them.

God just swore by himself.  Seriously.  Read that again.  Double you.  Tee.  Eff.  That’s what the prophets were given to work with.  It’d be hilarious if so many people didn’t actually believe this bullshit.  Wait, no — it’s still hilarious.  But more in a sad-clown-painting kind of way.  Know what I mean?

Stay tuned for part 2 of chapter 16, coming up after I’ve had a few cups of espresso and some snuggle time with KafirDog.  Whoo!  Blogathon!

* No offense to Reader’s Digest.  I do remember getting a good chuckle out of a Humor in Uniform story in a doctor’s office once.  I’m sure it’s a fine publication.

Written by kafirgirl

January 24, 2009 at 6:03 pm

Posted in Quran

154 Responses

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  1. (69) And suck from all fruits!
    But the naughty bees refuse and just eat nectar and pollen.

    (5) … (other) advantages …
    (6) There is life and cheer for you as you drive them home in the evening,
    Tell me, how are the muslims cheerfully taking advantage of the cattle?

    kereng

    January 24, 2009 at 7:05 pm

  2. Stabilisers, rawasi, are actually mountains in the interior of the earth made evident by modern geophysicists who mapped the earth’s interior. At some places they are 6 miles high and 6000 miles wide with a valley as deep and wide, situated between the liquid core and the crust of the earth.

    Hold on! Are you sure those are the right measurements?

    If the Earth is about 24,900 miles around the Equator (where it is wider), then that only leaves space inside the Earth for 2 mountains (since the valleys are as wide as the mountains).

    And try to picture what a mountain 6 miles high and 6000 miles wide would look if you put it on the inside of a sphere… wouldn’t look like a mountain at all.

    God wouldn’t make something that stupid, would he?

    Mauro

    January 24, 2009 at 7:20 pm

  3. W.B kaffirgurl. More and faster postings please.

    the mountains are also described in translation as being “Pegs”. Allah nailed the carpet of the earth down with a few handy tentpegs. And these prevent shaking, like umm…earthquakes and volcano’s. So there we have it. Volcanos are stopped by mountains. Earthquakes dont happen because we have mountains. Cheers Allah, you really are fucking great.

    sweetpityfulmercy

    January 24, 2009 at 10:58 pm

  4. Laugh. My. Fucking. Arse. Off. @ Reader’s Digest.

    That is classic.

    Scream Riot!

    January 25, 2009 at 12:33 am

  5. Wherefoever the bee fucks, there fuck I. Thank you John Donne and the Quran (or KO-ran, as we say down south!) for bringing that into my head.

    The Perky Skeptic

    January 25, 2009 at 12:39 am

  6. Perky Skeptic,

    I think you’ll find it’s Shakespeare: The Tempest.

    terraemotus

    January 25, 2009 at 2:34 am

  7. The story of mountains and sand seem logical to me. In the desert you have (a) sand that always moves, shifts and displaces itself – so you cannot rely on it neither as a landmark nor to build on it- and (b) rocks. In the worldview of someone who never left his/her sandbox (pardon the pun) the mountains support the sand, and make sure it doesn’t shift too much. Try e.g. walking on a beach in the dunes. It is the worldview of someone who has never ever seen ‘normal’ earth/soil. This would imply that the concept of ‘foundation’ for houses is unknown in the koran, and that buildings are not placed on ‘foundations’ but on ‘rocks’ – something to verify.

    H.C.

    January 25, 2009 at 4:47 am

  8. “Honey — like urine — contains medicine, so don’t go to the doctor or anything. Just drink some pee mixed with honey and all your various ailments will melt away! Huzzah! You can find it at the supermarket, right next to the snake oil.”

    Actually it’s not quite as silly as you make it out to be. Honey contains (among other things) anti-bacterial enzymes and has long been used to keep wounds free of infection – a practice that’s slowly gaining ground with physicians again! For the same reason it eases a sore throat (just don’t heat the honey too much – above 40 degrees and you’ve destroyed the enzymes).

    Re kereng, in the absence of flowers, bees will gather sugar in whatever form they can find it. It wouldn’t surprise me if Muhammad and his people occasionally saw bees gathered on fruit, among other insects. These days it’s not uncommon to see honeybees gathering sugar from danish pastries and other products left around outside bakeries…

    Felicia Gilljam

    January 25, 2009 at 10:47 am

  9. (22) Your God is one God. But the hearts of those who believe not in the life to come are filled with denial, and they are puffed up with pride.

    lolz. its creationists who are the most arrogant and proud people on the face of the earth because they say they’re the only real moral people and only they are worthy of heaven, everyone else deserves to be tortured forever for denial of their bs beliefs

    (63) By God, We sent apostles to many a people before you, but Satan made their acts seem attractive to them, and he is their friend this day, and a painful torment awaits them.

    Its like God made Satan more powerful than himself in influencing people. God struggles and sends prophets again and again but Satan is just too good. I mean if you’re all powerful would it be so hard to get your creation to listen and obey you? Its make no sense that God is the greatest and then would put himself in a position where he appears weak and powerless to help his creation do what he wants them to.

    Omar

    January 25, 2009 at 5:28 pm

  10. “As well as many other signs, as by the stars (you) find direction”

    You know what? My wife gave me a Garmin God Positioning System for Christmas. And God speaks to me every time I miss an off-ramp on these great freeways of Texas. He shows me the way. ..

    So.. God created stars so we could find our way. Seems reasonable – just like he gave us 2 ears and 1 nose to hang our eyeglasses on.

    HolyDude

    January 26, 2009 at 2:53 am

  11. Ah, back to the Quran with a vengeance I see. Very good. So, referring to the first verse, or surah: God gets high? That explains a lot really.

    It looks also like God found a new purpose for those stars. Back in the Old Testament of the Bible, the stars were only for telling the seasons. Now he’s figured out they can be used for directions. God’s a quick study alright. I wonder about the stars of other galaxies that were not known to mere mortals at the time?

    As a last observation in favor of the Quran (assuming the mountains on the earth version), those mountain stabilizers are working really well. Must be why there’s never any earthquakes here in Southern California.

    Also, if I may ask a simple question. Is heaven going to have gardens with streams? I’m so confused since it is never really clearly spelled out anywhere. But really, if we got gardens and streams, for what more could you possibly ask? (Must be a connection with the first verse in there somewhere.)

    liquidthinker

    January 26, 2009 at 6:23 pm

  12. @Felicia:

    I hope medicinal honey is not gaining this kind of popularity:

    http://stargoss.co.uk/badhomeopathy/modules/news/article.php?storyid=48

    ki

    January 26, 2009 at 7:02 pm

  13. I always loved the mountains-as-stabilisers (mountains prevent Earthquakes) verse. Allah shows his ignorance of science once again with that one. Seeing as how mountains are formed by plate tectonic activity and slippage of those plates is what causes Earthquakes.

    Poor Allah. He just can’t seem to get his facts straight. It would almost be interesting to keep a count of how many times Allah is deceptive in the Quran.

    Michael

    January 26, 2009 at 9:43 pm

  14. So if man was created from one drop of semen, what was impregnated? i thought it was blood and semen and possibly that shit inside of twinkies.

    And nice of them to include how horses/donkeys/mules were made for riding. After we fucking DOMESTICATED THEM!!!

    If i see anything in the book regarding dogs being man’s best friend, this principle may be repeated. Just sayin’.

    Priest

    January 26, 2009 at 10:55 pm

  15. If i see anything in the book regarding dogs being man’s best friend, this principle may be repeated. Just sayin’.

    Aren’t Muslins forbidden to keep dogs or cats as pets?

    Mauro

    January 26, 2009 at 11:59 pm

  16. (35) “The idolaters say: “If God had willed we would not have worshipped anything apart from Him, nor would our fathers have done, nor would we have forbidden any thing without His (leave).” So had the people done before them. Therefore it is binding on the prophets to convey the message in clearest terms.”

    KG: Yeeeeah. Anyone else think the prophets have done a piss poor job at conveying the message in clearest terms? Anyone??

    But remember The Cow, verse 253? anyone? (ok you don’t here it is)

    253. Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan.

    So its not the prophets fault… Its Gods. God has a plan so he wanted people to fight one another over beliefs he made unclear to them intentionally, because if Christianity was flawless there would no no reason to send another Prophet and replace it with Islam.

    its insane, God sends Prophets with a message, allows the message to get fucked up, then blames people for corrupting what he really said,and all this time he can just step in, give them the right message again but he wants them to fight each other because he has a plan.

    And Jesus had clear signs? wtf.

    That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”—but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not—nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.” (Qur’an, 4:157-158, Yusuf Ali)

    It was made to appear to them that he was crucified but he really wasn’t? Clear signs??? Oh God, you deceiver you.

    Omar

    January 27, 2009 at 12:00 am

  17. ki: No, that’s awful. But I’m not sure what you’re trying to say with it. Honey having mild antiseptic qualities doesn’t mean it’s good for treating severe infections and definitely not gangrene, and people who think it does are either extremely uneducated or idiots.

    Although since we’re talking about old remedies that are recently regaining popularity, the use of fly maggots against gangrene can be quite effective!

    My point is that although I’m the first to decry stupid “alternative medicine” practices like homeopathy, I don’t think one should ignore all of the old medicinal practices just because most of them were stupid and ignorant. Some of them were used because they actually WORKED. And that’s where modern medicine started out.

    Felicia Gilljam

    January 27, 2009 at 6:14 am

  18. That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”—but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not—nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.” (Qur’an, 4:157-158, Yusuf Ali)

    “The crucifixion was made to appear them” – who was it that made the apparition?

    “and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge” – try and tell that to a fundie Christian!

    “but only conjecture to follow” – oh the irony!!

    “for of a surety they killed him not—nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself” – So, what’s the Islamic position here? JC died a natural death at some point and was then brought up to heaven?

    “and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.” – even though his actions contradict these incessant statements?

    Have you by any chance, on your journey through the Koran, counted the number of narcissistic entries?

    kics

    January 27, 2009 at 6:59 am

  19. Omar said, “It was made to appear to them that he was crucified but he really wasn’t? Clear signs??? Oh God, you deceiver you.”

    Yes, Allah is again bragging about deceiving people. Not only did he deceive the Jews and Romans who thought they had crucified Jesus, but Allah also deceived those followers of Jesus (Allah’s prophet) who witnessed the crucifixion (we don’t know who was actually crucified, though). Ergo, Allah deceives those who believe in and follow his prophets. My eyeballs almost popped out when I read 4:157. If Allah is a deceiver, then nothing from him can be trusted.

    Kics said, “who was it that made the apparition?” Allah. He deceived everyone.

    Kics also said, “So, what’s the Islamic position here? JC died a natural death at some point and was then brought up to heaven?”

    No, Jesus was raised up to heaven alive and well, where he will remain alive and well until he is sent back to Earth on Judgment Day to break the cross (fight the Christians), kill the pigs (Jews), and abolish the Jizya (dhimmi protection tax specified in 9:29). Because the Jizya will be abolished, the only options for non-Muslims are conversion to Islam or death (Jesus becomes a mass-murderer, leading a jihad against the world — he even kills Ad-Dajjal, the Islamic version of the Antichrist, who happens to be a Jewish leader). Jesus will be subordinate to the al-Madhi and help him establish a caliphate and institute Sharia Law over the entire world.

    Michael

    January 27, 2009 at 11:25 am

  20. Michael, that was a great summary!

    GAD

    January 27, 2009 at 6:11 pm

  21. The Koran seems to have the intellectual depth of a mosquito’s fart and the toxicity of the plague. And this is supposed to be the best book ever written?

    My dog shits better prose!

    HolyDude

    January 27, 2009 at 7:15 pm

  22. HolyDude said:

    “The Koran seems to have the intellectual depth of a mosquito’s fart and the toxicity of the plague. And this is supposed to be the best book ever written?
    My dog shits better prose!”

    ya…but when people are desperate they’ll believe anything. The ideas in religion are extremely powerful, if you tell someone their life has a purpose, that everything bad that happens to them is predestined, that their creator loves them as long as they obey his word, and that death is an illusion and they’ll go on to a better place as long as they believe in a certain book, they’ll be willing to accept anything that book says…the comfort provided by these contradictory insane beliefs is too great and even if people realize some of it doesn’t make sense, they’ll put their hands over their ears and pretend like its perfect and all true, because they want it to be.

    People believe in this shit for emotional reasons, not intellectual ones.

    Omar

    January 27, 2009 at 7:43 pm

  23. Omar,

    I know that people believe this stuff for a variety of reasons – just like they believe that drinking urine is therapeutic or even spiritually cleansing. That does not preclude us from saying it STINKS.

    That people may be taken in by bullshit is not surprising. What is surprising is people who know this is bullshit and still don’t contest it. (i.e. Multiculturist blowhards)

    I appreciate KG’s blog because she is going out of her way to say that the Koran stinks. And it is important to say that it stinks because otherwise our silence is taken as an affirmation.

    HolyDude

    January 28, 2009 at 1:49 am

  24. @Felicia

    That’s a good attitude to have. I was just trying to point out that sometimes people get the wrong idea and it’s worth pointing out what’s scientifically know and what’s folklore.

    Unfortunately, the problem of getting the wrong idea from science and running with it is quite common. It’s quite common to stumble into a conversation involving “energy” or “quantum mechanics” that has nothing in common with the physical concepts these words are intended to describe.

    ki

    January 28, 2009 at 4:31 pm

  25. (8) “But then We never send the angels down save with the purpose (of enforcing their doom), after which they will not be given more respite.”

    hmmm. There was this guy at the mosque I use to go to, an old guy who lost his wife to cancer, and his kids in a plane crash. So he’d come for fajr prayer every morning, one morning it was snowing hard and he showed up, no one else there, and these three young men with glowing faces and all white clothes walk in and sit behind him, one gives the call to prayer and he says his voice is amazing…so they pray and after theyre done the three guys walk out. The old man gets up to leave and outside he only sees his footprints from his car, no other car tracks, no other footprints. Dun Dun Dun! lolz

    alot of people claim to see angels…another contridiction to this verse if their claims are true.

    How do u explain this stuff though…people seeing stuff, angels, demons and all that jazz, these beliefs are so obviously made up but they manifest themselves as real to people who believe in them. how is that? Mary statues crying? I think the human mind is so powerful that peoples beliefs can manifest themselves into real things. Any ideas?

    Rasheed

    January 28, 2009 at 10:50 pm

  26. Rasheed – People seeing and hearing things that don’t exist has many explanations but it’s all basically in the brain. Your senses aren’t trustworthy and your brain has to make a lot of things up as it goes along, and sometimes this process goes wrong. So hallucinations really aren’t that weird. That people see the things they happen to believe in is simply a matter of interpretation – if you hallucinate seeing a bright shining being with a halo, depending on which religion you’re from, you might call it different things.

    As for crying statues and the like, afaik, in those cases where claims like these were investigated, it’s turned out to be fraud. That’s right – people cheat! Surprise, surprise. Some people will do anything for their 15 minutes of fame.

    Felicia Gilljam

    January 30, 2009 at 12:31 pm

  27. Hey KF, watch out, the UN might send troops to shutdown your blog:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-why-should-i-respect-these-oppressive-religions-1517789.html

    This would be a ridiculous story if it wasn’t so dangerous to Humanity in general.

    Mauro

    January 30, 2009 at 4:15 pm

  28. That would be “Hey KG”, BTW

    Mauro

    January 31, 2009 at 11:52 am

  29. (1) “THE DECREE of GOD will surely come; so do not try to hasten it: Too glorious and high is He for what they associate with Him.”

    Too glorious and high. Hmmm. So the Qurans talking about how Christians bring God down to the level of creation, and show him to be like a man, God having a son, etc. That’s an insult God who is nothing like creation in Islam….or is he?

    The thing is, Islam makes the same freaking mistake! The Quran talks about God having a throne, hands, feet, shins (legs), a footstool, and two eyes, that he laughs, and a bunch of other stuff.

    How is this not anthrpomorphic, you ask? Well I did in this islamic class and the guy teaching it got offended and completely dodged the question by saying, its not confusing at all…we should just accept it and focus on more important stuff.

    Its ridiculous, its wrong to say the creator of the universe has a son, what an insult to God, so high and glorious is he above such claims! But its ok to say he has feet and a footstool to rest them on. Okkkkkk.

    Omar

    January 31, 2009 at 11:45 pm

  30. let me ask simple question..
    who made the whole universe ?
    I need scientific answer plz..
    take your time,,,

    jaffar

    February 1, 2009 at 2:33 am

  31. I love this. I really spend a lot of time as admin of the Face Book Group “Ingen undskyldninger til Muhammed” (No apologies for Muhammad – about the Danish cartoons).

    You should just see a lot of crap muslims are writing there while the are not threathening the admins with beheaqding and stuff like fucking our mothers and a lot of funny things, that I am sure they learned in the Quran School.

    I still would like to translate your blogg to Danish and Swedish if we can come to an agreement….

    Hans E Jensen

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8832907735

    Or: hej@expozite.com

    Hans E Jensen

    February 2, 2009 at 8:09 pm

  32. Allah made mountains to keep the earth from trembling. This is the level of backwardness in the doctrine that Islamists call timeless and eternal.

    Is it not ironic that to protect, preserve and promulgate this dark-ages mindset, the Taliban is using modern weaponry and technology. See this NYT article about Taliban swine using radio messages to drive home its primary message of…. FEAR!!

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/world/asia/25swat.html?_r=1

    And they tell me Islam is a religion of Peace!

    HolyDude

    February 3, 2009 at 3:28 pm

  33. Jaffar, your question is flawed. You’re assuming that someone “made” the whole universe. It’s a circular argument.

    kafirgirl

    February 3, 2009 at 3:55 pm

  34. What I don’t get is how creationists relate their particular god to how complex life is and to explain the origin of the universe. Its a joke.

    Lets say there is intelligent design in the universe, lets say everything came from some all powerful deity, (which is unproven but lets just assume its true) How in the world do you go from that conclusion to Islam is true, and Allah is real? Or Christianity is true and the Bible is divine?

    It boggles my mind that people can look at how complex life is, and then conclude that this “creator” of the universe, who can make such amazingly complex things, would write a book full of contradictions and errors, and reveal it to one man in the middle of the desert to spread to the rest of the world, the message not reaching parts of the world until over a thousand years later and still not reaching many people to this day.

    If there is some intelligent force behind life that wanted to communicate with us, it would have done a much, much better job of letting us know what it wants from us.

    Omar

    February 3, 2009 at 11:25 pm

  35. @Jaffar:

    If science is important to you, you should learn more about it. For example, science concerns itself not only with answers, but also with questions. Scientifically speaking, your question is flawed, just as this one: What does sunlight taste like?

    That question presumes that sunlight has a taste and then seeks to characterize it. Any attempt at such a characterization will fail, as taste is not actually a property of sunlight. Similarly, your question presumes that the universe has a creator and then seeks to identify him. So, attempts to answer your question are also doomed, as having a creator need not be a property of the universe.

    ki

    February 5, 2009 at 4:53 pm

  36. Furthermore, Jaffar, even if your question was valid, just because science might not have an answer for a question doesn’t mean “then god did it”. The ONLY thing it means is “we don’t know”, which is perfectly ok.

    There isn’t necessarily an answer to every question. Just because it makes you feel good to have an easy, simple, conforting answer doesn’t make it true either.

    Mauro

    February 5, 2009 at 6:26 pm

  37. Dog pile!

    let me ask simple question..
    who made god?
    I need scientific answer plz..
    take your time,,,

    GAD

    February 5, 2009 at 8:40 pm

  38. Just to add my 2c to Jaffar’s question:
    The scientific answer is that there is no credible evidence whatsoever to suggest that anyone made the whole universe.
    Hope that helps.

    Lance

    February 5, 2009 at 11:50 pm

  39. Jaffar, is this like the Muslim version of the Banana which refutes evolution?

    “There are something like ten million million million million million million million million million million million million million million (1 with eighty [five] zeroes after it) particles in the region of the universe that we can observe. Where did they all come from? The answer is that, in quantum theory, particles can be created out of energy in the form of particle/antiparticle pairs. But that just raises the question of where the energy came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero. The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero.” – Hawking, Steven. 1988. A Brief History of Time.

    Stat Quo

    February 8, 2009 at 7:31 am

  40. Oh and Jaffar, you might want to look at this link:

    http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/God_of_the_Gaps_Fallacy

    Stat Quo

    February 8, 2009 at 7:35 am

  41. And since we don’t have LOLmuslims anymore, this will do:

    http://failblog.org/2009/02/09/jihad-fail/

    Mauro

    February 9, 2009 at 6:32 pm

  42. @Mauro: If you look extremely carefully, you can see someone scribbled “ZIONIST” above “JUICE” … still an LOLmuslim.

    Michael

    February 9, 2009 at 8:38 pm

  43. Now that’s god damn funny!

    GAD

    February 10, 2009 at 1:37 am

  44. ????

    Uzza

    February 14, 2009 at 5:40 am

  45. This is … funny?

    How to Make a Hamas Hero:

    Michael

    February 14, 2009 at 10:30 am

  46. ¿Dondé está la Niña de Kafir?

    Scott

    February 17, 2009 at 7:13 pm

  47. Have been gone a while….

    “So if man was created from one drop of semen, what was impregnated?”

    Both the Bible and Qu’ran are heavily influenced by Aristotlean “science” (those Pagans were good for something, I guess) and hence reflect the then-current belief that semen alone was what formed new human life, and women were simply the “soil” that men planted their seeds in.

    Historically, that’s why when now child was forthcoming, it was always blamed on the woman, even in circumstances we now can recognise as blatant male fertility problems. (think Henry VIII and his six wives but only three children.)

    Quentin George

    February 18, 2009 at 6:44 am

  48. Oh, and everyone knows the universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure.

    Sheesh people…

    Quentin George

    February 18, 2009 at 6:46 am

  49. There were no men before man was created, so the semen could not have been human. Indeed, it was monkey sperm, thus does the Glorious Quran prove the truth of evolution. Praise be to Allah!

    uzza

    February 19, 2009 at 6:05 pm

  50. I thought everyone knew that, uzza? :-)

    Michael

    February 19, 2009 at 7:05 pm

  51. I think you people are missing the point. When the Qurans says man was created from sperm, it doesn’t mean the first man was created from sperm, it means that man in general is created from sperm. Its the same with the verses that say man is created from a blood clot.

    According to the Quran the FIRST man is created from clay, and then God breathes his spirit into his creation and makes him real.

    Omar

    February 19, 2009 at 9:16 pm

  52. Omar, “Man in general” isn’t created by sperm – the vast majority of your DNA comes from your mother’s egg. Mitochondrially speaking, you are a clone of your mother.

    Quentin George

    February 20, 2009 at 1:02 am

  53. I wonder whatever happened to Kafirgirl :(

    Fluffyskunk

    February 20, 2009 at 5:02 am

  54. Omar, you’re misinterpreting these verses.
    32:7…He began the creation of man from clay,
    Here the koran says god only began to make man, but never finished,
    32:8 Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid;
    A draught is beer, and it is only despised when it gets old and stale. Clearly, god threw his old moldy beer into a compost heap, where fungus grew and produced spores, or seeds.
    32:9 Then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His spirit: …
    This beer-fungus being, whose spirit was of beer, god fashioned into his current form, “him of his spirit”, meaning that we share with god the spirit of beer, living and breathing for its consumption.
    … and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye! He gave us hearts to appreciate the beer, but the Lord ends with an exhortation to show our thanks by consuming more beer, which clearly we don’t drink enough of. Truly is Allah Beneficient, Wise!

    Uzza

    February 20, 2009 at 10:44 am

  55. OT, you might find this pretty funny:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7YvhnPtMpA

    The Atheist Jew

    February 23, 2009 at 8:07 am

  56. So “Omar” where does the sperm come from?

    Lets face it, Mohammed was a man who had temporal lobe epilepsy, and he inflected young innocent Aisha with syphilis, her loosing her hair, etc, I mean Mohammed had serious problems brother you need to let go of that. *Sigh* really dude, come on you really think a god exists the whole definition of god is logically incompatible see any dictionary for the definition of god and read up on critical thinking.

    For all we know, we are just brains in a vat being stimulated by artificial inelegance which was created by aliens. In fact, even Methodological solipsism makes more sense… I am talking to myself.

    Stat Quo

    February 24, 2009 at 9:20 pm

  57. OK Omar my bad, I think I need to put down the vodka before I type. I do apologize.

    Stat Quo

    February 24, 2009 at 9:27 pm

  58. lol…I’m not defending Islam, I’m not saying the Quran says amazing things that people from that time couldn’t know

    I’m an ex-muslim remember? I realized long ago that Islam is man made like every other religion

    I was just making the point that when the Quran talks about mans creation, each description doesn’t apply to the first man, or all of mankind…you have to look at the context.

    Its amazing how Islam has survived so long…with so many flaws…just goes to show you people don’t care about what’s true, they just want to hear things that make them happy.

    Omar

    February 25, 2009 at 12:33 am

  59. Omar, I think it’s pretty amazing how most religions have survived this long despite all the flaws. What’s even more amazing is how it can turn what was once a “normal” human being into a maniacal fundie.

    And KG’s disappeared again.

    Yoke

    February 25, 2009 at 1:06 am

  60. And, I was just making the point that these verses can be interpreted in any idiotic way a person wants.

    It’s been a month since KG’s last post. I think the Koran has claimed another victim: attempted to read it and only made it half way through.

    Uzza

    February 25, 2009 at 10:47 am

  61. Its amazing how Islam has survived so long…with so many flaws…just goes to show you people don’t care about what’s true, they just want to hear things that make them happy.

    Well said, Omar. Well said.

    It’s been a month since KG’s last post. I think the Koran has claimed another victim: attempted to read it and only made it half way through.

    I hope she comes back soon, but reading the Quran is a difficult and depressing slog.

    Michael

    February 26, 2009 at 9:49 am

  62. It sure is. I got through about 1/3 of it and then gave up. I didn’t see the point in going on, as the whole reason I was reading it was to show my family Islams man made. They just laughed off anything I pointed out and at times got upset. (I saw that coming)

    Whats obvious to any other person is impossible for “true believers” to see. The mental scarring that happens to children when they’re indoctrinated into the religion of their parents causes permanent damage for most people. The things it tells them are so satisfying that they can never or will never think for themselves ever.

    I don’t really blame people. The world is cruel, and few people have the courage and strength to face life as it really is. Without their imaginary friends, religious people would be more insane than they already are.

    end of rant. :P

    Omar

    February 27, 2009 at 2:40 am

  63. I’ve blogged through about half of it, and it’s hard to keep motivated. Especially with KG gone.

    Omar, your rant is spot on, but what I can’t understand is how reading it can make them happy. I mean it’s all about people being doomed to hell, how can that be satisfying? Is it due to the poetry / singing aspect?

    Uzza

    February 27, 2009 at 6:06 pm

  64. hmmm. Well it doesn’t say all people are doomed to hell (it says most are) But if you’re one of the lucky few who earns Gods mercy, you can live forever with him in a perfect place where you’re always happy and get anything you want

    Besides that, it helps people make sense of life. It tells them their life has a greater purpose, that their suffering is for a reason, its not random as it appears to be, that God gives them and their loved ones diseases, poverty, and other hardships to “test” their faith and allow them a higher reward in paradise. It tells them that they’ll see their loved ones again, that there’s going to be perfect justice and all evil people will be punished for what they got away with in the world, and so on

    It essentially pats them on the back and says, it’ll all be ok, you’re not alone, the creator of the universe loves you and is looking out for you, all you have to do is “believe”

    that’s powerful stuff.

    Omar

    February 27, 2009 at 8:32 pm

  65. Well, I suppose that’s one way to read it.

    Uzza

    February 27, 2009 at 10:56 pm

  66. Not only that but it gives them superiority complexes and allows them to look down their noses and scoff at the unbelievers who will be roasting away in hell while they are delighting in fruit and whatnot. I’ve had conversations with Muslims, and when they get backed into a corner with a non-believer (a Christian at the time, so technically one of the people of the book), they just started talking about how they can’t wait to laugh at them when they watch them get hauled off to hell.

    Nice those religious people are, yeah.

    It pains me that I wasted so many years of my life believing this crap. It pains me more so that many in my family are still “true believers”. Oy.

    KG… come back and play, won’t ya?

    Emmy

    February 28, 2009 at 6:31 pm

  67. ya…its really sad to see good people who wouldn’t ever dream of hurting anyone themselves say, “Oh ya…nonmuslims are going to be tortured in hell forever if they don’t believe in Islam. And they deserve to, they’re denying the truth from their creator blah blah blah”

    I can’t stand hearing that. It’s like nails on a chalkboard.

    Even thought alot of believers say it because they’re taught to, I think deep down they don’t really believe it, no good person can.

    I stopped talking to muslims that say this crap, except my family and relatives. (which I have no choice but to meet with) It just makes them look like extremely arrogant stuck up insecure losers who look down on everyone. These same people even point at other practicing muslims and say they don’t really
    “believe” and are destined for hell

    I know, KG where u at? Thou shal finish reading the Quran :P pretty please?

    Omar

    February 28, 2009 at 9:05 pm

  68. anyone seen this guys videos on youtube? awesome stuff

    an ex-muslim explains why he left Islam

    Hell in the Quran

    Omar

    February 28, 2009 at 9:23 pm

  69. Yeah, the non-believers-shall-burn-in-hell thing.

    It’s ironic how they say “we’re humble servants of God” and “God is so great, we’re sinners and undeserving of his grace” , blah blah blah, while thinking they’re better than everybody else. That they’re gonna be saved while the rest are gonna burn.

    Yoke

    February 28, 2009 at 10:42 pm

  70. The “Hell in the Quran” vid was interesting, talking about some of the same verses we have discussed and been disgusted by. Although I found the disclaimers at the end annoying. After talking about the badness in the Quran he says he defends everyone’s right to believe and practice it.

    GAD

    March 1, 2009 at 12:41 pm

  71. We’re still active over at my own blog. We’ve covered about half the Koran, just finished ch. 17 and the three following, in chronological order.
    While I don’t write as well as KG, you’re sure welcome to come over and leave a thot.

    Uzza

    March 2, 2009 at 5:20 pm

  72. Cool Uzza, I’ll check it out in a bit…but without KG’s funny commentary, it just isn’t the same. :(

    GAD, as for that ex-Muslim defending people’s right to believe and practice Islam, I have to agree with him. I don’t subscribe to the new atheist view that religion is the source of evil, as Christopher Hitchens puts it, or that humanity can “move foreward” once its eradicated. I don’t agree with Sam Harris either when he portrays most Muslims as “utterly deranged” and says Islam is a “death cult”.

    The thing is, religion holds different meaning to different people. To most Muslims, its a crutch to lean on in hard times, gives them hope and helps them be good to people. I think the vast majority of Muslims are good, loving people…most people are. That’s because they don’t take everything their religion say’s all that seriously, but it’s still important to them as it helps them deal with life and gives them somewhere to belong.

    So ya while I think Islam is man made, if it makes people happy to believe in it, and doesn’t drive them to hatred, intolerance, arrogance, or violence and barbarism, they have a right to believe and follow it.

    Anyways religion isn’t going anywhere, not anytime soon. If there’s every going to be peace in this world, we all need to accept and respect all people as they are. (as long as they do the same)

    Omar

    March 2, 2009 at 6:19 pm

  73. Looks to me like the dividing line is not religious/skeptic, but whether or not people take ‘scripture’ literally or not.

    Uzza

    March 2, 2009 at 9:03 pm

  74. So if you don’t believe/practice all what the Quran/Islam says then are you really a Muslim?

    GAD

    March 3, 2009 at 3:59 am

  75. Not what I meant. I’ll take your word that you ‘are’ whatever you call yourself, but I suspect all holy books have something that says to do stupid/immoral shit, and you’re dangerous if you take it literally. A person who reads it as metaphorical says it means whatever they think it means—based on their own moral judgement—which is exactly what atheists do. But, a person who takes it literally suspends their own judgement and just does whatever they think it says (which they usually get from some crazy preacher). So they’d read “love Jesus” and go throw a liplock on Mr. Rodriguez next door.

    Uzza

    March 3, 2009 at 11:20 am

  76. hmm ya. a follow of a certain religion can’t say they “disagree” with a verse from scripture, they can only interpret that verse in a different way.

    What most moderate Muslims do to get away from the insanity and strictness is say, my iman (faith) isn’t that strong, I have weaknesses, but I still “believe”.
    That way a moderate can do whatever, as long as they don’t say “There’s a problem with Islam, or the Quran has flaws.”, they’re still considered a true believer, just one of weaker faith.

    Omar

    March 3, 2009 at 5:22 pm

  77. It’s not like I don’t believe in Santa Claus, it’s just that my belief is Santa Claus is very weak. two totally different things.

    uzza

    March 6, 2009 at 2:01 pm

  78. Omar,

    I understand your impulse to differentiate between die-hard zealots and mild-mannered believers. I think there is a genuine distinction when it comes to distinguishing between harm wrought by fundamentalist zealots and moderates.

    But that does not make their (moderates) position intellectually sound. You can choose to grant moderates extra latitude but frankly nobody is under any obligation to do so. Therefore, Harris and Hitchins are absolutely accurate in their analysis when they critique the moderate position.

    In fact one could argue that moderates are probably more dangerous than the fundamentalists. This does not make them more evil it just makes them more dangerous (albeit without their intending to be so).

    Check out : http://myminddroppings.wordpress.com/2008/12/17/fundamentalists-vs-moderates/

    HolyDude

    March 10, 2009 at 7:27 pm

  79. Hey, holydude. I’ve been watching your blog for a month for your next post to show up, and it never does, and now you’re over here. What are you up to?

    Uzza

    March 11, 2009 at 1:11 pm

  80. KG, we miss you!!! )-;

    Anyway, hope you are doing well and that you get back to the blog when you’re less busy.

    ki

    March 12, 2009 at 6:08 pm

  81. HolyDude I absolutely agree. Moderates who claim that a certain book is “divine” and perfect allow extremists to act on what that book says. Most moderates would never dream of carrying out things the Quran or Bible says, but when they see extremists doing it, its justified and defended since its “Gods will”.

    I use to consider that if someone started a new religion that excludes all the hate, ignorance, and stupidity of the major world religions, it might help to truly unite humanity and bring about peace in the world. The problem is many people are finding that you can live a good life without religion at all and those people that do consider themselves religious, are pretty fixed in what they see as the truth, the religion of their parents.

    Omar

    March 16, 2009 at 12:00 am

  82. Religion = Power = Forcing your will on others.
    Religion without power is philosophy.
    Religion needs hate to justify it’s power.

    GAD

    March 16, 2009 at 1:10 pm

  83. KG – how ’bout a quick “yo” to let us know you’re still out there?

    Uzza – love your stuff too!

    Kics

    March 25, 2009 at 8:00 pm

  84. Guy’s (I use that term generically) if KG does not want to post, she does not want to post. I think we are laying a little emotional pressure into her by keep asking where you is at.

    Check this you tube video out (Pakistani Ex Muslim atheist):

    Stat Quo

    March 27, 2009 at 3:23 pm

  85. Came by to say… where Kafir Girl? Long time no see.

    But as Stat Quo says above, if Kafir Girl doesn’t want to post, that’s fine, of course. Missing KG just the same though.

    scaryreasoner

    April 3, 2009 at 12:32 am

  86. Not wanting to post is fine, but given connection to Islam, I guess I get a bit concerned thinking that someone tracked her down over this.

    Hope you’re okay and everything’s going good, KafirGirl! :)

    Demonhype

    April 3, 2009 at 2:53 am

  87. hmm ya her last post was 2 months ago…this is uncomfortable

    maybe she just has better stuff to do…reading the quran isn’t exactly fun

    Omar

    April 4, 2009 at 12:23 am

  88. back to the discussion about moderates, I think whats really to blame is mans tribal nature. People want to be part of something, to belong somewhere, and religion provides a community to belong to. The problem is you can get them to believe some really stupid and crazy ideas because they want to fit in with everyone else and go with the flow. Please are like that, easily convinced when they see other people thinking the same.

    Thats why we see atheists who seem to think that if you eradicate religion, humanity can “progress” or become more moral, like Christopher Hitchens thinks.
    This faith in humanity would be touching if it wasn’t so delusional. Even if religion was abolished, people would invent other groups and institutions where the in group, the “civilized”, more fortunate, superior people would look down on the out group, the rest of humanity. You can’t change human nature.

    Omar

    April 5, 2009 at 4:31 am

  89. You’ve got it exactly right, Omar.

    Uzza

    April 5, 2009 at 2:26 pm

  90. Omar, that is the plot of the south park episodes 1012 Go God go & 1013 Go God go XII. Watch them if you haven’t seen them.

    http://www.southparkstudios.com/guide/?season=10

    Even so, it’s better to group by science then religion.

    GAD

    April 5, 2009 at 3:15 pm

  91. Omar,

    I do not agree with you or Uzza at all! Your argument sounds glib and shallow.

    The issue at hand is NOT man’s social needs. The issue at hand is how Religion has hijacked that need and installed itself as the un-challenged provider of that need – irrespective of the Human Cost that it extracts.

    People have favorite sports teams and karaoke-clubs where people hang out and build bonds. But these groups, teams, clubs… are not exempt from critique and comment. Religion purports to offer universal truths and spiritual solace and it demands unflinching devotion and abdication of rational thinking. And such subservience carries a REAL HUMAN cost. But exposing religion as fraudulent is considered too harsh and unseemly and hence it is given a pass. It is this “exemption” that critics like Hitchens decry.

    I do not know of ANY atheist commentator who is asking for the ‘eradication’ or ‘banning’ of religion as you imply. YOU are incorrectly ascribing this motive to Hitchens (and possibly to other writers).

    What these writers seek is to expose the Human Cost that has extracted as a result of irrational dogma and that religion should not get special privileges and exemptions that are not available to any other field of human endeavor.

    For example: The only reason why the media and society shy away from holding Islamic teachings responsible for the bloodshed they cause is because it is “impolite” to talk ill of religion. We are accustomed to granting it an exemption. This “special treatment” is what writers like Hitchens and Harris deplore.

    Their position is (and I concur) that Religions are intellectually and morally bankrupt doctrines – but if they provide you consolation and satisfaction then you are welcome to pursue them in your own private domain. But you are NOT welcome to drag all this garbage into the public domain and demand our subservience to this stuff.

    I do not see anything in this position that even vaguely resembles “eradication of religion” as you imply. It is merely a relegation of religion to its proper place in society (that of private spiritual pursuit).

    HolyDude

    April 6, 2009 at 2:00 am

  92. Rad post, HolyDude! I’m down with that!

    GAD

    April 6, 2009 at 11:15 am

  93. HolyDude,

    I’m not saying man needs to be tribal, they just naturally are. They don’t need to belong to a group, but everyone end’s up belonging in some way to a group of people similar to themselves.

    The new atheists do seem to think that this world would be a better place without religion at all. This should be clear to anyone who has read their books and listened to their debates. Hitchens states,”our species would begin to grow something like it full height, if it left this childishness behind”. They know religion can’t be eradicated completely but they feel humanity would progress and be better off without it.

    Seeing as how more killing has been done for reasons other than religion, under Hitler, Mow, Stalin, etc., for political reasons, and fights over land and power, its simply not true that religion is the source of evil, as Hitchens has stated several times.
    At Authors@Google: Christopher Hitchens at: 55:30, “…the shakedown community, the genital mutilation community, the suicide bombing community, the child abuse, child rape community, are all communities of faith, believe you me.”

    The fact is, people can and do commit evil without being influenced by any religion, this is really self evident when you read the news about how non religious people commit murders, rape, acts of terror, exploit the unfortunate, and so on.

    I agree with you that religion does cause harm in the world, theres no denying that, and that it shouldn’t be except from criticism.

    Actually the reason why the media and society “shy away” from holding Islamic teachings responsible for bloodshed, is not only because it’s impolite to talk ill of religion, but they are protecting the safety of the millions of Muslims, their fellow citizens that are a part of their society. Lets say the media went all out and exposed Islam for what it truly says and is, do you have any idea how many hate crimes there would be against Muslims?

    I disagree that Religion is morally bankrupt, yes its made up, but it does say good things that can produce a good human being as long as people pick and choose the good bits. Yes there needs to be a separation of church and state and religion should have no influence on government, the foreign policy of a nation, law making and the rights of people in any society.

    The regulation of religion is not what the new atheists strive for, if that was so, they would be ok with moderates, and its clear they’re not. (rightfully so, as anyone who subscribes to the idea that a certain book is divine without having it take over their own life, excuse other people from doing what the book orders them to.)

    My main point was just that religious problems are really just human problems, and people will always be susceptible to committing evil with or without religion to motivate them.

    Omar

    April 6, 2009 at 5:29 pm

  94. Omar,

    With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

    – Steven Weinberg.

    The problem with religion is not that that it is uniqueness in being murderous. The problem is that it is unique in its unaccountability.

    Nazism, Stalinism and Fascism are all examples of dogma that has put itself beyond the reach of accountability. They are all ‘political religions’.

    HolyDude

    April 6, 2009 at 5:43 pm

  95. Wow. Angels dance on pins! Controversy ensues!

    What I got out of Omar’s post was that people are tribal and will always be willing to pay whatever Human Cost is asked in order to belong, therefore, religion can never be eradicated even though it abuses that tendency. Further, by pointing out it’s morally bankrupt, even with the simple “Imagine no Religion”, I think we can’t help but imply it should be eradicated, which wouldn’t really help and few of us actually advocate, but we shouldn’t let ppl frame it as +/- religion, for the reasons Holydude gives.

    See, I’m easy. I agree with everybody.

    uzza

    April 6, 2009 at 8:34 pm

  96. Uzza,

    There are no posters saying “Imagine No Astrology” or “Imagine no Feng Shui”. The only reason is because these irrationalities, though present in society, are safely sequestered into a corner and therefore not as menacing.

    Religion, in contrast is not content with living in its corner. It seeks not just prominence but DOMINANCE. And therein lies its perniciousness.

    Therefore, a posted saying “Imagine no Religion” does not imply eradication but a deflation of its pre-eminence.

    Yes there will still be hardship and evil in this world but we will have a rational basis to address it. Religion and its pre-eminence in society inhibits (if not prohibits) the use of our singularly most potent faculty – i.e. reason.

    These posters and indeed the various commentators are only advocating the primacy of Reason over Dogma. It is only because we are so accustomed to granting Religion a place of pride and sanctity that any challenge to it seems to us like a call for “eradication” and “banishment”. This is not a problem with the critic or the critique. It is a problem with our skewed sensibilities.

    HolyDude

    April 7, 2009 at 1:11 pm

  97. Oh, c’mon. “Imagine no religion” implies there’d be no religion. The poster doesn’t say “Imagine religion that’s still there but isn’t so pre-eminent.” That might be what you want it to mean, but that isn’t what it says.

    uzza

    April 7, 2009 at 2:26 pm

  98. Uzza,

    If a poster can be expected to capture the breadth and depth of any argument then perhaps you are right.

    But Omar was referring to commentary from Hitchens (and Harris) and attributing the advocacy of “eradication of religion” to them. And I think that is just false.

    They are strident and unabashed in their criticism of religion – but that is only because Religion forces itself on every sphere of human endeavor. In other words, if religion occupied the same space in society as any other hobby or pastime, there would be no quarrel.

    HolyDude

    April 7, 2009 at 5:28 pm

  99. Word!

    uzza

    April 7, 2009 at 9:53 pm

  100. lol

    Omar

    April 7, 2009 at 10:38 pm

  101. come back kafir girl

    randomness

    April 28, 2009 at 9:09 pm

  102. Just to register that I’m still checking this site periodically and hoping all is well with KG!

    kics

    April 29, 2009 at 11:19 am

  103. I’m thinking about starting my own blog about how realizing Islam is man made has changed the way I see life and Muslims…or maybe not

    still freaked about KG not replying at all on here…hope ur doing good

    Omar

    May 3, 2009 at 11:41 pm

  104. Just checking in again.

    Please drop a comment to let us know if you’re okay, KG. ‘Cause I think we’re all officially worried about you by now!

    Demonhype

    May 21, 2009 at 11:27 pm

  105. Just checking in. Looking at another great site – http://uzzas.blogspot.com/ too!

    kics

    June 11, 2009 at 9:23 am

  106. cool

    I’ve been reading Khalas! recently http://khalas.wordpress.com/

    Tree Dreamer is good too

    http://treedreamer.com/

    But I really wanna read blogs about life after leaving Islam…
    Thats it! I’m starting my own blog, and I’ll post it here once its ready

    Omar

    June 11, 2009 at 10:32 pm

  107. so here it is

    http://exmuslimwrites.wordpress.com/

    feel free to comment and gimme ideas about stuff to write about besides the Quran

    Omar

    June 13, 2009 at 12:28 am

  108. Well since there is not a whole lot going on around these parts i figure that i might as well take this opportunity and shamelessly plug my blog..

    http://originaldoodles.wordpress.com/

    Just some random art that i do.. All are welcome to comment. :)

    randomness

    June 20, 2009 at 9:48 pm

  109. ok so I’m closing the blog I made because,

    1) I’m still freaked over KG
    2) My writing is boring in comparison to other ex-muslim blogs
    3) Smart people who really care about whats true can figure out Islam is made up on their own

    Omar

    June 29, 2009 at 1:08 am

  110. Just checking in.

    If anyone has any news of Kafirgirl can they please let us know what’s happened? Kafirboy?

    kics

    June 29, 2009 at 3:48 pm

  111. Shit, where the hell is Kafirgirl?

    I just re-read her post about 9/11…

    http://kafirgirl.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/7-years-ago-today/

    and there’s just no way she’s just quit this blog with no explanation, no final post. I can’t help but to fear the worst. :(

    scaryreasoner

    July 6, 2009 at 12:29 am

  112. ya…maybe kafirboy shutdown her account for her safety…or wordpress saw it as too offensive and they did to protect themselves and her

    but then she would still reply her email to let us know shes ok, or post something on here

    trying to think of positive explanations…

    has anyone contacted wordpress? could/would they do anything to find out what happened?

    Omar

    July 10, 2009 at 1:55 am

  113. Anyone heard of ‘Occam’s Razor’? let’s not jump to conclusions!

    Stat Quo

    July 11, 2009 at 9:39 am

  114. Stat Quo:

    Well, yes, but this has been a really disproportionately long time. Late January up to early August now–what is that, seven or eight months? That’s an incredibly long time to go without at least tipping a hand somewhere, even just on Atheist Nexus, just a couple words to let everyone know. Even if her computer or server was shut down, there’s always the library to send a “hey there, I’m fine, I’ll be taking hiatus for whatever reason, don’t worry!”

    Anyway, I’m not jumping to conclusions, and I wasn’t even worried right away. But at this point, it’s not entirely irrational to be a little antsy at this point.

    Hope you’re okay, KG!

    Demonhype

    August 6, 2009 at 6:31 am

  115. Just checking in. Hoping we’ll here from KG soon. Yes, perhaps someone who knows her can, at some point, leave a comment on Athiest Nexus or Uzza’s site, or maybe hire a plane and leave a message in the sky – um…preferably somewhere near me.

    And if Allah is reading this and really does know best, can you please just let us know, I dunno, by leaving a message here…hmmm…though sadly, no one will believe you!

    Alternatively perhaps via another messenger, who can provide a modicum of evidence that he (wouldn’t be a she would it?!) actually IS your messenger – perhaps a card with a really really amazing hologram of you?? Or perhaps REALLY, REALLY prove it by telling us when the Leafs will next win the Stanley Cup?

    Also, can the next messenger for all humanity please speak a language other than, or in addition to, Arabic. English would be really useful, and, I hope it’s not a big ask, can whatever he says be clear and free from contradiction this time? Something like “KG lives and is happy and just doesn’t want to contribute to her blog anymore. Do your own blog!”
    Cheers.

    kics

    September 1, 2009 at 6:47 am

  116. Was just reading KGs FAQ section, and she says that her parents know about her atheism, and how her dad was more disturbed by it then her mom.

    she also writes “I’m not really afraid of being attacked…I’m more afraid of damaging my relationship with my family. I don’t want to see them ostracized from their community or shunned by their friends because of my disbelief.”

    Maybe things got out of control with her parents and she just decided that her criticizing Islam was hurting them too much.

    I myself have gone back and forth about pretending to believe in Islam for my family… the constant arguing, tenseness in the house, heated discussions, crying, silence at dinner, and so on…day after day…I try to avoid these discussions but it always comes up, even though we agreed not to discuss it (in their eyes I’m bound for hellfire so ya I don’t blame them for persisting)…I mean family is a very important thing for most people, at times it just seems so much easier to just pretend that you’re a Muslim, to pray and praise Islam to see your parents smile. I know if I don’t do this then life from here on will be difficult and I’ll slowly be cut off from my family and relatives. The only thing you have to give up is your mind, your free will and a right to your own thoughts and opinions on life. Sometimes I think its worth it if it means the people you need and who need you will accept you and everything will be peaceful like it use to be.

    Anywho…just saw this (for the 5th time, lolz )
    Chris Hedges on Atheism

    he says something at one point that I keep thinking about, that “religion is a good thing for good people and a bad thing for bad people”

    For the most part, I agree. Any thoughts?

    Omar

    September 19, 2009 at 3:10 am

  117. Kafir Girl, where r u? Pls. just post one line that u r safe n sound.

    anand

    September 26, 2009 at 4:17 am

  118. Hello everybody,

    I used to read this blog last fall, and now that I return to it Kafirgirl has disappeared. It really is strange for a person to disappear like this for 9 months.

    If you’re reading this KG, know that you have readers all over the world who are worried about you. Responding even with one line that you’re OK would be a sigh of relief echoing across many continents.

    Hannu

    October 14, 2009 at 11:57 am

  119. Hi All,

    KG seems to have given up on her Blog. That does not mean any harm has come to her. It would be nice to get a 1-line reassurance – but if that is not forthcoming then let’s just accept her decision.

    In the meanwhile, I’d like to invite your thoughts on a thought that’s been cooking in my mind for several months. I recently blogged about it. Check it out:

    Almost Nobody Truly believes in God.

    When someone says they “believe” in God, they are actually making 2 assertions:
    1. That GOD exists.
    2. That they “believe” in his super-powers.

    The 1st claim is widely challenged and debunked. But the 2nd assertion is left un-unchallenged. I would like to posit that although most people say that they believe in God – they do not *actually* believe in Him.

    I’d like your views……

    HolyDude

    October 14, 2009 at 12:38 pm

  120. It doesn’t mean she’s ok either. In fact, it doesn’t mean anything. I would still like to see at least one line of: “Hey all, I won’t be doing this blog anymore. Take care.”

    Hannu

    October 15, 2009 at 9:22 am

  121. Holydude in response to your 2 assertions about God,

    the 2nd assertion, that they “believe” in his super-powers, I assume you’re referring to miracles attributed to God, both in the past (As told in the Quran, Bible etc.) and present (healing of sick people, being saved from a natural disaster, etc.)

    When things happen in this world when they are least expected to, like the curing of cancer on its own, a baby surviving under a crushed building in an earthquake, and so on, religious people see that as God intervening in the world

    From a nonbeliever it can be then argued that if God can save so and so why not this other person? And they’ll say God does whatever he wants, and he has a plan.

    Anything can mean anything to anyone, and religious people interpret events in this world in support of their religious beliefs. I’ve seen the most religious people see their loved ones slowly die from cancer and still claim that God intervenes and can save anyone from any moment from anything, but it’s just that he has a plan and it was “written” that this would happen and it was this persons time to die and suffer from this so he can have a higher place in paradise.

    So I’d say that that the religious do believe in Gods super powers even if they are never witnessed firsthand, because God does what he wants. One of the main functions of religion is to console people, and no matter what happens in the real world, people will see it as a positive thing in their minds because it helps them deal with it.

    Omar

    October 20, 2009 at 12:16 am

  122. Is it just me or has The Apostate blog disappeared as well? Does anyone know what happend there?

    randomness

    November 3, 2009 at 9:00 pm

  123. Hi Randomness.

    No it is’nt just you. Several blogs that are listed on KG’s blogroll have disappeared.

    KG seems to have disappeared but her blog is right here.

    for your daily dose of Koranic Bullshit – tune in to Uzza’s Blog at http://uzzas.blogspot.com/

    He has a great one for Halloween!

    HolyDude

    November 3, 2009 at 9:05 pm

  124. I thought Uzza was a girl :|

    well I just came across this site, first time I’m seeing it, I’m sure you people have

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Main_Page

    a good resource for finding contradictions in the Quran and problems with Islam (It’s made by faith freedom I think)

    Omar

    November 4, 2009 at 1:11 pm

  125. She hasn’t updated her Atheist Nexus page for about as long as this has been going on.

    I understand worrying about ostracizing her family, but even a quick “I’m alive, I’m fine, but no more blogs, I’m finished with that” posted up somewhere would be very reassuring without hurting the family.

    Just hoping she’s okay.

    Demonhype

    November 18, 2009 at 7:57 pm

  126. Still no sign. What a great way to develop “The Legend of Kafirgirl”. I think the disappearance may all be part of a cunning plan.

    kics

    November 26, 2009 at 7:47 am

  127. Just checking in…

    kics

    January 14, 2010 at 6:47 am

  128. Nothing yet after more than a year. Will check over 12 months again.

    Hope she’s doing ok.

    DutchA

    February 18, 2010 at 8:53 am

  129. Just checking in.

    I have noticed that Project Reason’s ‘Scripture Project’ now includes references to KafirGirl’s site.

    http://www.project-reason.org/scripture_project/

    kics

    March 25, 2010 at 8:52 pm

  130. Still nothing from KG.

    I posted my apostasy story on wikiIslam. (Farhan)

    Pretty interesting reading how other people woke up.

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Category:Former_Muslims

    Omar

    April 23, 2010 at 8:34 pm

  131. Kics

    June 3, 2010 at 10:57 am

  132. Just passing by to pay my respects.
    Peace y’all

    DutchA

    June 13, 2010 at 3:57 am

  133. Dammit, Kics, for a moment I thought that was a recent communication–possibly from the Ex-Muslim Underground where Kafirgirl has apparently been forced into hiding, but even more likely just the general sign of life we’ve been hoping for.

    Just checking in again, KG. Hope your okay.

    Demonhype

    June 25, 2010 at 1:50 am

  134. Kafir Girl I’m worried about you. Hope everything is well.

    Calladus

    August 31, 2010 at 4:21 pm

  135. Just checkin’ in.

    Kics

    November 3, 2010 at 9:19 am

  136. Just checking in. Feels like I’m leaving flowers at a gravesite though. Wish we knew whatever happened to KG.

    scaryreasoner

    November 3, 2010 at 11:40 pm

  137. Just checkin’ in.

    Kics

    January 17, 2011 at 2:35 pm

  138. Taking a quick look. Nothing.

    Peace all.

    DutchA

    April 9, 2011 at 7:16 am

  139. Well, I had mentioned kafirgirl over on my blog, and somebody left this comment:

    Well, scary reasoner, if kafirgirl is “gone”, who is moderating her page? Because, 2x I tried to post the following, and each still (month’s later) read “awaiting moderation” while other comments have appeared on the page:

    It might interest you that on some pro-Islamic blogs there is speculation that kafirgirl is not who “she” really claimed to be. They note 1. similarities in grammar and referral pages between her and other bloggers some of whom commented on her comments (suggesting multiple identities claiming to be several different people) 2. ignorance of certain things someone from her background would know, ie. she doesn’t know or got certain things wrong about Islamic weekend school which she claimed to attend as well as ignorance about certain things about Pakistani culture, etc.:

    http://www.worlds-forum.com/showthread.php/73264-Kafirgirl/page3

    http://muslimsuperhero.wordpress.com/category/refutation-of-kafir-girls-quranic-exegesis/

    This would be consistent with suddenly stopping–”she” became preoccupied with other blogs/identities, or this became larger than “She” imagined, increasing the chance that the “hoax” would be exposed.

    On the other hand, this could be real, and she could have encountered trouble, so hopefully wordpress has answered ppl’s pleas and provided any info they have on her to the authorities to investigate. I’m sure that has happened.

    Of course, the story is plausible, many children of Muslim parents have doubts that they must keep secret, I am sure.

    It is a mystery either way.

    END QUOTE
    If you are truly a seeker of truth, address this question.

    Sheesh.

    My guess is that kafirgirl’s blog has the default behavior of blogs on wordpress.com in which only first time commenters are subject to moderation. So my guess is nobody is moderating the comments here, and the only people who can comment are people who commented previously before kg disappeared.

    scaryreasoner

    April 16, 2011 at 9:13 am

  140. Scaryreasoner.

    With actually reading the Koran and appealing to common sense and civility, KG’s comments have a ring of accurate analysis that the refutations simply can’t address. At its best, the Koran as a moral guide is lamentable, interesting only because it is old.

    kics

    May 4, 2011 at 5:13 pm

  141. kics, no worries, I’m on KG’s side here. I just wanted to deny this guy the satisfaction of thinking KG is censoring his dumb ass.

    scaryreasoner

    May 8, 2011 at 12:19 am

  142. It’s been a year (almost) since my last check-in KG. I’m very worried about you! Drop me an email.

    calladus

    August 16, 2011 at 2:12 pm

  143. It seems absurd that KG would not be who she says she is and not at least stage an “I’ve decided to stop blogging about this, it’s safer or whatever” kind of end to it, ather than cut off abruptly from all kafir girl-based websites and leave people wondering and fretting for…what has it been, two years or three? And she’s also not on her Atheist Nexus page last I checked. This is just incredibly creepy or scary and I feel, as scaryreasoner does, that I’m leaving flowers on a grave at this point.

    Anyway, I wanted to check in again, see if there was any news. *sigh*

    Demonhype

    October 17, 2011 at 3:10 am

  144. Demonhype,

    Your comments reflect the feelings of many, I’m sure. I reckon surely someone else – her boyfriend? – knows/knew she was blogging kafirgirl and cold leave a comment explaining what happened, if indeed something did abruptly happen, that has prevented her from continuing.

    In the meantime, for me, this reflects my views on how Islam, with it’s reverence for Abraham, makes immorality a virtue.

    Have you heard of the Charlie Hebdo incident in France recently?

    kics

    November 8, 2011 at 8:52 am

  145. Taking another quick look. Still no news after more than 3 years.

    Peace all.

    DutchA

    February 29, 2012 at 4:49 pm

  146. Checking in

    Kics

    May 18, 2012 at 6:29 am

  147. Almost four years now.

    Peace all.

    DutchA

    January 14, 2013 at 5:04 pm

  148. Checking in, once more!

    Kics

    January 20, 2013 at 4:52 pm

  149. Been four years now.

    scaryreasoner

    January 30, 2013 at 12:26 am

  150. Four years. It’s hard to believe. I’m still just hoping she went underground and is still okay. If you’re still around and reading this, Kafir Girl, we care about you!

    Demonhype

    March 2, 2013 at 1:45 am

  151. Kics

    I had to google Charlie Hebdo to remind myself (it’s been awhile), but yes. It’s amazing how those of the most devout faith have the most fragile feelings. They love to tell stories of glorious martyrs being tortured and/or dying for their faith, but when it comes down to reality they can’t even bear up under satire and “mean words” without throwing one hell of a temper tantrum. I guess the All Powerful God is totally powerful, giving the faithful the ability to stand strong against all sorts of disasters and tortures, but under the assault of irreverant words he has no power and crumbles into dust–so he needs to have his omnipotence protected from the words of other people. Some freaking omnipotence.

    Demonhype

    March 2, 2013 at 1:51 am

  152. Unforgotten.

    kereng

    June 6, 2013 at 2:00 pm

  153. Somehow I had to think of KG again. More than 4.5 years. And indeed unforgotten…

    DutchA

    October 6, 2013 at 12:23 pm

  154. More than 5 years now. Damn.

    scaryreasoner

    May 14, 2014 at 11:28 pm


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