KafirGirl

We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

9: Repentance (Part III — Jizyah: the infidel tax.)

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The other two posts about Chapter 9 dealt with treaties.  What to do when a non-Muslim group breaks a treaty with a Muslim group (hint: they must die).  But what about the non-Muslim groups that don’t break their treaties with Muslims?  Check it out:

(7) How could there be a treaty between idolaters and God and His Apostle, except those you covenanted by the Sacred Mosque? Therefore as long as they are honest with you be correct with them, for God loves those who are godly.

God loves those who are godly?  The fuck?  I guess that means Muslims should strive to be vengeful, egotistical, insecure, petty, genocidal little shits.  And they should all consider vanishing off the face of the planet and leaving behind no evidence of their existence.  Hell, they can take the Christians and the Jews with them if they want.  God loves those who are godly, and nothing is godlier than not existing!

Unfortunately for us, this verse isn’t about God wanting religious people to disappear.  Boo!  Hiss!!  It’s about certain treaties Mohammed made that God wants him to uphold.  The verse starts out by saying that the only treaties that exist between the Muslims and the non-Muslims are the ones that were made by the Sacred Mosque.  What about all those other treaties Mohammed made?  God’s response is this:  What other treaties?

Yeah.  Some people collect stamps.  Other people garden.  God’s favorite hobby is screwing people over.

Anyway, those specific treaties are a-OK with God, just so long as the pagans don’t try to double cross him.  That part makes sense to me.  No use in throwing out the baby with the bathwater — especially when that baby is paying jizyah!

(29) Fight those people of the Book who do not believe in God and the Last Day, who do not prohibit what God and His Apostle have forbidden, nor accept divine law, until all of them pay protective tax in submission.

Believe it or not, that is the only verse I could find in the Quran about jizyah.  No joke.  I thought at first it was an Ahmed Ali issue again.  I wouldn’t put it past the guy to entirely leave out jizyah from his index — he’s your typical turd polisher apologist.  Turns out it really is the only mention of jizyah in the entire Quran.  And somehow, from that teeny weeny little mention, the Muslims were able to figure out exactly what God wanted them to do.  Miraculous!

Now if God wasn’t totally incompetent, he’d have set some ground rules, maybe concentrated less on who’s going to hell and more on establishing some actual guidelines for how to enforce this whole jizyah business.  But no.  Again with the not existing.  Good thing the internets exists.  And it provides us with a boatload of information on what jizyah is all about.  And for that reason, I’m replacing Thank God with Thank Google from now on.  Google actually does something for me, and it’s never banished me to hell.  Lo!  Google is all-knowing, all-powerful!

I thought the whole jizyah thing was pretty unique to Islam.  Turns out Mohammed most likely stole the idea from the Sassanian empire.  Pretty much everything in the Quran is ganked from some other religion or tradition, so that’s not much of a shocker.

Anyway, jizyah is a per-head tax.  Non-Muslims have to pay it to have the privilege of living among the Muslims.  On second thought, maybe I should have emphasized the word living.  Non-Muslims who want to remain non-Muslims really only have two options:  pay the jizyah or be killed.  Check it out:

From Wikipedia:
Abu Yusuf, an eighth century Hanafi jurist states in his Kitab al-Kharaj that “The wali [governor of a province] is not allowed to exempt any Christian, Jew, Magian, Sabean, or Samaritan from paying the tax, and no one can obtain a partial reduction. It is illegal for one to be exempted and another not, because their lives and possessions are spared only on account of the payment of the jizya.

Yup.  Jihad to pay or jihad to die.  Iz that simple, rlly.

Here’s how it works:  you’re a Jew and Mohammed wants your tribe to convert to Islam.  You think he’s a lying sack of shit (totally understandable), so you obviously don’t want to convert.  You are then faced with the choices of either paying the jizyah or dying.  There are no other options. What would you do?

Well, if you were a member of those Jewish tribes who lived in the region for years before batshitass crazy Mohammed came along, that’s exactly the position you’d have found yourself in.  You’d most likely do what they did:  you’d attack the Muslims.  Because, really, what choice have they left you?  Convert to Islam.  Pay the bitch tax.  Or be killed.  And that right there is why that whole they attacked first excuse that apologists just love to pull out makes no Googledamned sense whatsoever.

Anyway, if the non-Muslims agreed to pay jizyah, they were allowed to keep their lives and their non-Muslim religion.  How’s generous!  They were also offered protection, which Wikipedia is careful to note is “protection from outside aggression.”  Right.  Maybe it’s just because I watched the Godfather movies recently, but it sounds more like the non-Muslims are buying a different kind of protection:  give us money and we won’t break your legs.

One of the many things that the Quran doesn’t explain about jizyah is who exactly has to pay it.  I guess God’s too busy to work out those details so he just left it up to Mo.  Regardless, most sites I scoped out agree that jizyah is mandatory only for able-bodied non-Muslims who are old enough to be in the military.  And it’s not just the pagans who were screwed by this tax system.  The Jews and Christians — Muslims’ fellow people of the book — were not exempt.  Actually, come to think of it, the jizyah verse doesn’t say anything about pagans, so they might be exempt on a technicality.  See?

(29) Fight those people of the Book who do not believe in God and the Last Day, who do not prohibit what God and His Apostle have forbidden, nor accept divine law, until all of them pay protective tax in submission.

But that’s just the Ahmed Ali version.  I checked some other translations to see if they varied at all.  And, surprise!, they did.  But not in the way I expected:

A. J. Arberry: (29) Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden — such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book — until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled.

Pickthall: (29) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Yusuf Ali: (29) Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

So they all make reference to people of the book or scripture — Jews and Christians.  But they all use different words to describe how Mohammed wants them to feel about paying jizyah.  According to these translations, Mohammed wants the non-Muslims to feel humbled, low and subdued.  And then, of course, there’s the word Ahmed Ali chose.  The word that says it best.  Submission.

That’s Islam for you:  submission, one way or another.  Either you submit to God by becoming a Muslim, or you submit to Mohammed by paying taxes.  There’s no other option.  Oh wait, I forgot, there is another option:  you’ll have the option of being killed.  Hurray for choices!

In case there’s any doubt about how jizyah is just Arabic for bitch tax, check out how it’s supposed to be collected from non-Muslims:

A la Wikipedia:

Zamakhshari, a Mu’tazili author of one of the standard commentaries on the Qur’an, said that “the Jizyah shall be taken from them with belittlement and humiliation. The dhimmi shall come in person, walking not riding. When he pays, he shall stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector shall seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say “Pay the Jizyah!” and when he pays it he shall be slapped on the nape of the neck.”

And then the dhimmi squats and pisses all over himself before flopping over belly-up to let the Muslim smell his ass and hump his leg.  That’s how it works in the alpha dog world, right?

Also, note how it says “until all of them pay protective tax in submission.” And note how it doesn’t say “all of them in Mohammed’s area,” or “all of them who belong to tribes X, Y and Z.” It says exactly what it means:  all of them.  All of us.

If you’re still unsure of how jihad and the convert, pay or die system go hand in hand, read what Ibn Khaldun says in Muqaddimah:

“In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force.”

Yup.  Duty, obligation, persuasion, force.  That pretty much sums it up.

I was curious about what the hadith say about jizya.  Check it out:

Volume 2, Book 24, Number 559
Narrated Abu Humaid As-Sa’idi

When we reached Tabuk, the Prophet said, “There will be a strong wind to-night and so no one should stand and whoever has a camel, should fasten it.” So we fastened our camels. A strong wind blew at night and a man stood up and he was blown away to a mountain called Taiy, The King of Aila sent a white mule and a sheet for wearing to the Prophet as a present, and wrote to the Prophet that his people would stay in their place (and will pay Jizya taxation.)

First off, that’s some strong fucking wind to blow a man all the way to a mountain.  And secondly, when I Googled “King of Aila,” all I came up with were references to that hadith.  Wikipedia wasn’t helpful either.  Aila may or may not have enbe the region occupied by Legio X Fretensis, but there really isn’t much point in trying to track it down since I kind of suspect that this whole episode never happened.  A man stood up and the wind blew him away to a mountain called Taiy?  OK.  Abu Humaid As-Sai’di was obviously the guy to go to when you wanted the good drugs in the desert.

Next in the hadith:

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 404:
Narrated Said:

Abu Huraira once said (to the people), “What will your state be when you can get no Dinar or Dirhan (i.e. taxes from the Dhimmis)?” on that someone asked him, “What makes you know that this state will take place, O Abu- Hu raira?” He said, “By Him in Whose Hands Abu Huraira’s life is, I know it through the statement of the true and truly inspired one (i.e. the Prophet).” The people asked, “What does the Statement say?” He replied, “Allah and His Apostle’s asylum granted to Dhimmis, (i.e. non-Muslims living in a Muslim territory) will be outraged, and so Allah will make the hearts of these Dhimmis so daring that they will refuse to pay the Jizya they will be supposed to pay.”

Is it just me or does that hadith just reek of propaganda?  It sounds like the dhimmis were getting too uppity at some point, refusing to pay jizyah, and then suddenly this hadith was found and it showed some guy remembered something some other guy remembered Mo saying once that just such a thing would happen.  I wouldn’t put it past them — I mean, Mohammed’s their role model and he pulled that shit all the time.  See the very fucking convenient timing of the revelations about marrying Zainab as one example.  Oh, and then there’s that whole Satanic Verses mess.  Don’t even get me started.  We’ll be here forever.  Here’s my favorite jizyah-related hadith:

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Apostle said, “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.

I died laughing.  I absolutely fucking died.  Jesus is going to be back!  Only he’s not coming for the Christians — he’s coming for the Muslims. He’s going to break the crucifix, which I’d totally support him on because I’m sick of seeing that shit dangling from peoples’ necks.  And, yes, you read that right:  Jesus is going to kill the pigs!  Why?  Why not!  The crazy fucker cursed a fig tree for not giving him figs.  He’s out of control!  But he’s not coming back just to break stuff and kill things.  He’s actually coming back to abolish the jizyah!  And then — oh their fucking God, it gets better — there will be so much money that nobody will have any need to donate money to charity!  Oh hurry back, Jesus!  Mommy needs a new pair of shoes!

One of the Muslim apologist sites played the blame shift game by pointing out that jizyah actually exists in the Old Testament.  I looked it up, and guess what?  It kind of does:

Deutoronomy
20:10  When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
20:11  And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
20:12  And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it

Thee’s and thou’s are like sleeping pills to me, so I had to read it a few times to get the jist of it.  Plus it was, like, 8 AM, so my first thought was, “The fuck?  Found therein shall be a stream unto thee?”  I’m borderline retarded before I have my morning coffee.  I reread it just now, and my second thought?  “Wow, that sounds just like something out of the Quran!”  Moral of the story:  same God, same bullshit.  Doesn’t matter if he’s called Yahweh, God or Allah, old homeboy’s still a dick.

That’s all I have on jizyah.  If you’re a nerd who wants to read up on it some more (high five!), there’s an excellent article at dhimmitude.org that I highly recommend.  Coming up next:  zakat, the tax Muslims have to pay.  Ha!  God’s greedier than the gubb’ment!

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Written by kafirgirl

August 27, 2008 at 10:00 pm

Posted in Quran

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102 Responses

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  1. Firstly, that bit about godly people? I almost fell out of my chair laughing.

    Secondly, you said:
    A man stood up and the wind blew him away to a mountain called Taiy? OK. Abu Humaid As-Sai’di was obviously the guy to go to when you wanted the good drugs in the desert.

    I feel obliged to point out that if Muhammad was in the area, the wind in fact had help, what with all the hot air blowing out his ass and mouth.

    And somehow, Jesus killing the pigs doesn’t surprise me. We all know what he thought pigs were worth, after all (Mark 5:12-13).

    I always laugh when I hear about the “great humanity” that Muslims showed towards other religions. First off, it was only the People of the Book, and that was a second class status akin to Apartheid, which we rightly abhor. Secondly, it often got, erp, forgotten. There were pogroms against Jews, there were things like the Armenian genocide (which yes, Turkish apologists, really happened), and pagans, unless you were in India and outnumbered the Muslims 10 to 1, were strictly not part of it. That, by the way, is the answer to the jizyah puzzle — pagans don’t have to pay it for the same reason dead people don’t have to pay it. Or pigs, after Jesus comes back.

    Gregory

    August 27, 2008 at 10:35 pm

  2. kafirgirl, you’re the best, I really enjoy reading your posts. Doing this stuff must be taking up a major chunk of your free time, isn’t it?

    Mauro

    August 27, 2008 at 10:37 pm

  3. Gregory, it all makes sense now. If Mohammed was nearby, I’d tie my fucking camel down, too. And thanks for clarifying that point about the pagans not having to pay the jizyah because they’d mostly likely just be killed. Pagans are the lowest of the low on Islam’s “other religions” totem pole. Unless, of course, you count the apostates. Today I read hadith featuring Mohammed saying we should all be killed. So that’s where they get it from. Ahhh the religion of peace. It gives me warm fuzzies in my heart just thinking about it. I believe the technical term is heartburn.

    Mauro, free time? What’s free time?? It’s kind of sad really — between my job, husband, dog, blog and sleep, there really isn’t much time for anything else. I should change my middle name to Multitasking. Anyway, I’m glad you’re enjoying the posts. And you guys are the best for keeping up with my ramblings!

    kafirgirl

    August 27, 2008 at 11:16 pm

  4. Can any one have been more racist as Mo and God when they wanted people to give the tax in humiliation, subjugation and submission.

    As you are embarking upon zakat, I recently read that one of the terror suspects in India admitted that the money given for zakat was used for funding the terror attacks.

    Another Kafir

    August 27, 2008 at 11:22 pm

  5. Hey, that Muslim apologist site is a great read. I am absolutely staggered by their counter-argument that as jizya also appears in the Old Testament then it must be OK. THE OLD TESTAMENT?? It’s like someone claiming their anti-Semitism is OK because it’s also found in Mein Kampf. The whole argument of that site seems to be ‘You think the Koran is bad? You should see the Bible…”

    This is their cast-iron defence of the practice of killing those who for some reason felt that the choice between conversion or taxation wasn’t all that fair :

    “You have to understand that these are God’s laws. It is probably difficult for a non-Muslim to understand this but from the Muslim perspective it is completely justifiable. For God sake people get executed or punished for crimes against man made laws, what do you expect to happen to people that break God’s laws?”

    So that’s alright then.

    P.S. The same guy also attempts to justify Old Man Mo’s marriage to a 9 year old by pointing out that women’s life expectancy was much shorter then. Evidently you needed to get in early to avoid disappointment.

    Lance

    August 27, 2008 at 11:31 pm

  6. I’m sorry, I know this is off-topic, but I have just read what must be THE finest line of religious apologism anywhere, and felt I had to share. If they ever give out awards for this shit, no-one else need bother enter. Here we go: (From: http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm)

    “I have demonstrated that, despite the fact Muhammad married a nine-year old girl, he could NOT be considered a pedophile.”

    Lance

    August 27, 2008 at 11:41 pm

  7. As you are embarking upon zakat, I recently read that one of the terror suspects in India admitted that the money given for zakat was used for funding the terror attacks.

    Ugh. How fucking horrendous is that? That money’s supposed to be for charity. I knew they used it to pay civil servants, but I didn’t see that coming. Sad.

    Lance, you have to see this, too: http://www.answering-islam.org/
    They’re both morons.

    “I have demonstrated that, despite the fact Muhammad married a nine-year old girl, he could NOT be considered a pedophile.”

    ….bahahahahaha! Seriously? Seriously??

    kafirgirl

    August 27, 2008 at 11:46 pm

  8. It reads as if the Qu’ran was “The Big Money Scam for Dummies – Killer edition”. You know? There are 2 things that I gather from all this stuff:

    - People is basically unimaginative. I am sure that if any of us was give the task to compile the book of our most revered god/prophet/spiritual alien, we would be able to draft something much more coherent. It might not be accepted, but that is because you need to be a wacko to just get the right mixture of craziness and make-believe needed to establish a religion.

    - People is basically good and/or inept. If after so many centuries Muslims are basically in the same geographical area, it is because they were not blood-thirsty (faithful?) enough to convert anyone within sword range.

    Brg

    brg

    August 27, 2008 at 11:52 pm

  9. KG,
    http://www.answering-islam.org/ – Oh, thank you so much. One minute on the site, and I found another one for my collection:

    “Jesus conquered death – not by killing it – but by dying”.

    I understand that many people conquer cancer in the same way.

    Lance

    August 27, 2008 at 11:55 pm

  10. I am starting to like this shit written in the sites answering islam/christianity. There seems to be nothing worthwhile in the both of them. But I do not understand why they are dying to make a point, why are they dying to get retards in their recruitment and why does “truth” require so much of support.
    Why is it so important to preach in islam and christianity? I do not think preaching should be necessary.

    Kafir

    August 28, 2008 at 1:39 am

  11. Hilariously, in post-Islamic Spain and the Crusader States the jizya was reversed, i.e. Muslims had to start paying their Christian overlords taxes to be allowed to practice their religion “freely”. They didn’t like it.

    Duh…

    Of course this little turnabout apparently did nothing to convince the religion that perhaps the tax wasn’t a very nice idea, and it lasted until Europeans forced the Ottoman Empire to discontinue the tax.

    Quentin George

    August 28, 2008 at 2:34 am

  12. In a way, the cruel part of me thinks that any Muslim who seeks to justify such a tax, and happens to live in a non-Islamic country, should be forced to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak, and pay a tax to their non-Islamic overlords.

    Quentin George

    August 28, 2008 at 2:37 am

  13. “I understand that many people conquer cancer in the same way.”

    Even though this is further off-topic, it eludes me how can Jesus’ actions be considered a sacrifice, when he had such a big net gain from it?

    I mean, yes he suffered for 3 days, but he got an eternity in paradise. The first billion years would more than make up for it. That’s not sacrifice. When a soldier throws himself on a grenade to save his platoon, now that’s sacrifice. In Pat Condell’s words: “If anything, I think he owes us an another crucifixion. You can’t live on past glories forever. Who does he think he is? Woody Allen?”

    Hannu

    August 28, 2008 at 3:38 am

  14. I do not know how can Muslims (i.e.: I mean the fundies) always cry out for the freedom to practice their beliefs and having respect for their culture during their stay in another country, whilst not giving other people, anywhere in the world, the same freedom and respect.

    I remember that some years back the new ambassador of Iran to Spain went to present his credentials. He was received by the king and queen. And what did he do then in the official reception? He approached the king and shook hands with him. Next was the turn of the queen, so she put her hand forward. The ambassador didn’t even came close to that hand; he didn’t even looked at the queen. He just bowed and walked away quickly. The queen was left with her hand out and her mouth open. And we were left with the task of forgiving the ambassador because his religion instructed him that such was the treatment women deserved, i.e.: we should allow him the freedom to follow his beliefs and respect his culture.

    Quentin, I do not think Muslims living in other countries should be taxed. I think that they should be allowed the freedom to follow their beliefs and get respect from other people for their culture AS LONG as neither interferes with those of other people, or tries to supersede in any way laws and rules of the host country. Are you a Muslim in another country and think that the Qu’ran is right and all infidels should be killed? I have no problem with you as long as you do not act on that in any way against me or other people. Otherwise, you should be treated accordingly to your acts.

    Brg

    brg

    August 28, 2008 at 6:16 am

  15. brg – I was being faecious. I don’t think anyone should be taxed discrimininately or treated differently in front of the law. The lack of personal, economic and religious freedoms in the Islamic world is holding them back, whether the citizens are Muslim or otherwise. It wasn’t accident that the European Enlightenment and the Haskalah happened at the same time, and in the same place…

    Quentin George

    August 28, 2008 at 6:53 am

  16. BRG,

    People is basically good and/or inept. If after so many centuries Muslims are basically in the same geographical area, it is because they were not blood-thirsty (faithful?) enough to convert anyone within sword range.

    But that all seems to be changing now. I mean, look at Holland. Things are not looking so good over there.

    I do not know how can Muslims (i.e.: I mean the fundies) always cry out for the freedom to practice their beliefs and having respect for their culture during their stay in another country, whilst not giving other people, anywhere in the world, the same freedom and respect.

    Entitlement issues. Seriously. They think they’re special and everyone else is going to hell. I guess that’s what happens when you have the official seal of approval from the invisible man in the sky. And you can say the same about all 3 religions.

    On a note related to your story about the king and queen of Spain — I had a job interview about a year ago with an orthodox Jewish man who refused to shake my hand. The interview had gone well, and there was no doubt in my mind that I had the job, but when I stuck out my hand to say thank you, he threw his hands up and shook his head. I realize he has the right to NOT shake my hand, but I can’t imagine working for someone who doesn’t respect me enough to treat me as an equal. Fuck that noise. And then I had the pleasure of having him call and email several times, offering more money and better benefits, basically begging me to take the job while I politely declined.

    It’s starting to piss me off now when I hear people say you have to be “tolerant of” peoples’ religious beliefs. You have to “put up” with them. Fuck that. I don’t have to respect their fairy tales and I don’t have to walk on eggshells to make them feel normal. Especially when their religions have such a high opinion of anyone with a vagina.

    Lance & Kafir, the basic premise of both sides is just that — you think OUR religion is fucked up? You should see YOURS! I didn’t check to see if there was an answering-judaism.com.

    QG, hilarious! I had no idea the Muslims were taxed by the Christians. I’m sure there’s a nice piece of apologism out there saying, “See, THEY did it, too, and God didn’t even TELL them too!”

    Hannu, “I mean, yes he suffered for 3 days…” But did he? I realize I don’t “get” the trinity because it wasn’t drilled into my head as a child, but isn’t Jesus also God? Which would put him above pain? Or do gods feel pain now? I’m not being silly, it’s something that’s always bothered me. I can’t help but roll my eyes when I hear Christians talking about how Jesus suffered for our sins. If he was really God, wouldn’t he have proved it by, I dunno, NOT suffering through the crucifixion? Humming a little tune while he runs up the hill with the cross on his back. Yawning while they’re hammering the nails in. That would be SO much more impressive to me.

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 8:04 am

  17. Kafir,

    What you address is not a problem. The real problems for Christianity lay elsewhere. Christians can counter by obfuscating the god-man relationship and saying that Jesus felt pain. As the Christians view it, the whole notion of sacrificing Jesus stems from appeasement for original sin. And here’s where the problems start. And boy are there problems! Since sin is defined as disobeying god then why does God have to sacrifice himself to himself in order to forgive humans? I mean, why not just forgive them? Who is he trying to impress? Himself?

    The other big problem is the moral one. How can the death of one man pay for the crimes of an other man? That’s highly immoral, isn’t it? If you were to rob a bank, and I killed for it would it be okay? NO. Of course not. Yet this is the underlying morality in Jesus’ ‘sacrifice’. Jesus dies so others may live, even though they should be killed for their sins. So basically god’s morality is this: People have sinned and awakened god’s ire, so somebody has to die (no matter if the sacrificed person is himself the guilty part or not). As if only blood can appease god.. It’s quite horrible at its core really. But strangely in all my christian years, I not once thought about it.

    Hannu

    August 28, 2008 at 8:58 am

  18. hey that kafir was me.. not sockpuppeteering, but having a separate nick on the office comp to comment on a different site…
    Anyhow, I do not know if I agree with that example of the jewish man not being respectful of you as a person or as an equal, but considering the racist polemic against him in the Quran, I understand why it could be tough for him. I’d find it hard to see eye to eye with the murderer of my father or the family of the murderer who remind me of him/her. Considering how Islam damns jews to pigs and apes, he must remember that when he reads your name and has to shake your hand.
    I do agree that it is still racist, because it assumes that you are the same as what is preached by your supposed faith and same as others with the apparent same faith, but it is racist in response to racism which is kind of natural.

    Call me the devils advocate but I think that Iranian ambassador bowed and left, that is kind of polite. There are cultural differences, like in India we do not kiss and hug people of the opposite gender, while in some European countries it seems common. I do not know the actual incidents happenings so I am not sure until i see what had happened.

    About tolerance of religions, I agree that one do not need to be respecting fairy tales. And even if for creativity sake one is allowed to speak foolish or stupid things or even evil things, the criticism should be allowed in the same token. Otherwise the criticism which will come eventually will be far worse.

    @brg
    I agree with what you say about muslims living in non-muslim countries. Sadly in India we are not allowed to criticise Islam, this is inspite of the fact that Ibn Warraq, Salman Rushdie, Irshad Manji have their origin in India. Absence of free speech is one of the main handicaps to free debate in this country.

    Another Kafir

    August 28, 2008 at 9:16 am

  19. I don’t mean to burst your bubble about the godly bit (or tarnish a good rant), but according to my dictionary, godly means “devoutly religious; pious”. It doesn’t mean to be God or like God. My thesaurus says: religious, devout, pious, reverent, believing, God-fearing, saintly, holy, prayerful, spiritual, churchgoing. Given that definition, the verse makes more sense. God loves those who are [religious, devout, etc].

    Michael

    August 28, 2008 at 9:49 am

  20. Matrydom and sacrifice, these things interest and appeal to me and in every single short story i ever written, i die. How do i see meself then if i could lead the perfect life?
    1) To die like Juhanna de’ Arca
    2) To be martyred in Medina like Hypatia of Alexandria after preaching for the prophet to be reburied and left in peace
    I got a real respect for martydom and sacrifice and hope i could be so brave maybe. See friends, me name’s Jaz and i’m a addict and i LET EVERYONE DOWN and i got no one, got no self esteem, surviving in rehab, day by day, totally isolated, i don’t care about meself, so martydom isn’t so bad.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 10:06 am

  21. Kafir said:

    “But I do not understand why they are dying to make a point, why are they dying to get retards in their recruitment……”

    Because it is easiest to train retards as suicide bombers. Show them dreams of flowing streams. give’em a little hashish, and strap a bomb on them, count money received thru zakat/oil well channels, laugh all the way to bank.

    brg said

    “The ambassador didn’t even came close to that hand; he didn’t even looked at the queen. He just bowed and walked away quickly. The queen was left with her hand out and her mouth open….”
    More than anything else, this ambassador would be worried shit about reaction back home by ahmedinejad and ayatollah. I once visited Iran and was totally surprised the kind of tyranny displayed by rulers. There were so many instances that I can probably start a new blog, only I am afraid Ayatollah will issue a fatwa for my head.

    KK

    August 28, 2008 at 10:17 am

  22. on hand shaking and the Irani ambassador, Muslims never miss a chance to display-
    a) Their mysogony
    b) Their cultural chauvanism
    c) The fact they’re not properly socialized and can only see women as sex objects

    A leader of a certain Gulf country was flying to America and the control tower guiding the leader’s plan happened to put on a American air traffic controller. The incoming plane’s crew refused to deal with the control tower as it was a woman. U think that normal? IT’s having a deeeply messed up view of women which ding dongs between ultra conservatism- and rampant harrassement, the two feeding off each other. The results are gross.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 10:18 am

  23. But what if my name doesn’t at all sound Muslim? (It actually doesn’t.) And what if I look less Pakistani and more like I’m from India or Trinidad? (Those are the 2 big ones I get.) It’s less to do with any of that than it does the fact that orthodox Jews are not permitted to shake a woman’s hand. I didn’t know that until after my run-in with that guy. It really had less to do with my name and my face and more to do with my vagina. He wasn’t being racist. He was being sexist. And it all came down to religion. (http://jewish.families.com/blog/why-dont-orthodox-men-shake-hands-with-women) (I love parentheses!)

    Michael, I know what it means and it does make perfect sense in that verse — I just wanted to make a funny. Admit it. You laughed ;)

    Jas *internet hug*

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 10:23 am

  24. Another Kafir, you usually make very good comments, but just now you seem to be having a serious attack of the stupids.

    I do not know if I agree with that example of the jewish man not being respectful of you as a person or as an equal, but considering the racist polemic against him in the Quran, I understand why it could be tough for him.

    It could be tough for him because he’s a bigot. Waah.

    I’d find it hard to see eye to eye with the murderer of my father…Considering how Islam damns jews to pigs and apes,

    KG didn’t murder his father. She didn’t damn jews to pigs and apes. But you’re still ok with punishing her for those things?

    or the family of the murderer who remind me of him/her. ….he must remember that when he reads your name and has to shake your hand.

    You justify punishing her because of thoughts that exist in his head. They exist in there because he’s an immature bigot. He’d rather punish another person than take responsibility for his own attitudes.

    but it is racist in response to racism which is kind of natural.

    It’s natural to be an immature self-centered brat– when you’re two. The point of growing up is gaining maturity by taking responsibility for your self. Aside from two wrongs not making a right, there is no racism here to meet with in the first place. The only racism is what exists in the undeveloped mind of this asshole who disrespects another human for reasons that exist only in his own mind.

    Call me the devils advocate but I think that Iranian ambassador bowed and left, that is kind of polite.

    POLITE? The fuck? It’s polite to tell someone they are not even fit to be touched, let alone accorded normal social ettiquette at their own event? What the fuck is wrong with you? You mean it would be less polite for him to actually say out loud “Oh, no way a perfect being like me is touching the hand of a filthy subhuman cunt.” Well, you’re wrong there too. A non-asshole would have politely refused, given a diplomatic explanation and asked to be excused.
    You’re giving this prick a pass out of respect for his religious sensibilities; well, where do you draw the line? Can he throw acid in Queen’s face if she doesn’t ‘cover’ properly? How about her sensibilities? She wants to be treated as a human being, with R-E-S-P-E-C-T. He wants to insult and hurt people. Whose sensibilities get priority here? And don’t say “god’s”.

    There are cultural differences, like in India we do not kiss and hug people of the opposite gender,

    One word: Khajuraho

    watercat

    August 28, 2008 at 10:27 am

  25. KK, funny, look one post up, they’re not retards and writing women in particular off who become shaheeds will never help them from becoming martydom bombers or prevent more attacks. Look at issues of self esteem, the hypocrisy in Muslim countries where men are predators but if a woman has sex she’s considered the lowest form of life and how women are cornered into only one avenue of saving their ‘honor’. They’re not retards- they’re often very normal women who have transgressed against the abnormal rules of train wreck societies. Think about it, do rich women, or women from powerful families ever do this? It’s the weak, the poor and the margianilized, the jilted girl, the unmarried mother or the abuse victim and more often than not- the woman who has seen her male relatives disappear and will sacrifice her life for $800 from some Islamic charity so the kids can survive, cos better than selling her body, she prefers to blow herself to bits.
    Now as a apostate, u might think, “Hell, how come she’s so sypathetic to female suicide bombers?” Er, I’m not, i am sympathetic to their plight, it’s not as simple as it appears and i don’t ever see religion as the prime reason for their actions.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 10:27 am

  26. “Jesus is going to be back!”

    You didn’t know that? The Muslim Jesus is going to come back and kick butts. Especially Christian and Jewish butts.

    Michael

    August 28, 2008 at 10:30 am

  27. Yes, he’s coming back for like a few months i think to fight fun duo Juuj and Majuuj who are the the scooby doo part of the deal, demons, or maybe even nations, led by Miiskih id Dajjal (the Anti Christ), who laughably, years back in Pakistan was thought to be David Copperfield, yes, the Las Vegas illusionist! U guys must think i’m trippin’ and making this up, but it’s true, millions thought David Copperfield was the Dajjal, hell, maybe Siegfried and Roy were even Juuj and Majuuj, who knows.
    And what does the Muslim Anti Chrsit do, he brands everyone with the letters- K-F-R, as as in Kafir Girl. Yes, the whole ending is spooky, sort of Dr. Who, maybe Ed Wood Jnr.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 10:42 am

  28. Watercat, little less personal attacky, eh? I think AK didn’t know that orthodox Jews are not allowed to touch members of the opposite sex. I ‘splained how it wasn’t me, it was the fact that I’m a woman that made him not shake hands with me. In both situations were cases of religious asshattery. God doesn’t want you to shake hands with a woman because shaking hands is touching and touching leads to sex. That’s just fucking stupid.

    You didn’t know that? The Muslim Jesus is going to come back and kick butts. Especially Christian and Jewish butts.

    I knew he’d be back, but I didn’t know he’d come back to kill pigs and fuck up the Christians and Jews. Good to know. I wonder how the Christians feel about this.

    Jasmine, I’ve been thinking about getting the word kafir tattooed on myself because I spent so many years running from it before finally embracing what I am and who I am. And now that I know the anti-christ is going to do it, fuck it, I’m definitely doing it. I’ll beat him to the punch.

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 10:48 am

  29. Jesus is in fact not coming back, cos he’s already here, buried in Kashmir

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 10:48 am

  30. SNAP! We just both posted at the exact same time, wooooh.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 10:51 am

  31. A tatoo, yikes, maybe one u can remove KG, but not like a permanent one.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 11:02 am

  32. Don’t worry, Jasmine, it won’t be my first and it definitely won’t be my last.

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 11:08 am

  33. GOOGLE AKBAR!

    asdf

    August 28, 2008 at 11:16 am

  34. I wasn’t attacking AK, I was saying the position s/he was taking was a stupid one. Not up to her usual standards. It doesn’t matter whether the guy was a jewish asshat, or moslem asshat, or just a plain old asshat. the point is that what he did is not acceptable, and making excuses for it is exactly what the koran/bible thumpers do. It’s certainly not polite to publicly humiliate someone, and the Koran doesn’t change that.

    Your remark, “…it wasn’t me, it was the fact that I’m a woman…” is enigmatic; don’t say things like that on feminist blogs! Can you separate the two? Can he insult the woman part of you without insulting you? Maybe this is a subtle effect of growing up around patriarchal religions? And, I’m sure that if this ambassador had done that to a man it would have caused an international incident; but his holy books say a woman is only what a fourth human or something, so that’s ok then? Sorry, Fail!

    watercat

    August 28, 2008 at 11:21 am

  35. The point is that what he did is not acceptable, and making excuses for it is exactly what the koran/bible thumpers do.

    Agreed x a million.

    About the guy not looking at me for me but me as a woman, what I mean is it could have been ANY woman standing there that he would have refused to shake hands with. But if it was a man? No problem. It made me feel like he didn’t even see me as a person but as a thing. Sad, sad, sad.

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 11:25 am

  36. Read the rest of Deutoronomy 20 and you’ll see that the Quran 9 ain’t got nuten on the bible.

    http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/20.html

    On Google as god.

    http://www.thechurchofgoogle.org/Scripture/Proof_Google_Is_God.html

    GAD

    August 28, 2008 at 11:39 am

  37. Sure watercat, thanks for pointing out, but frankly that is how it occurred to me then.

    Now when I think about the Iranian ambassador, I think he was being sexist. I see my choice of words and see why it seems that I was defending it. I must have felt some respect for the discomfort you feel when you do something which you normally don’t do in your own culture. You are mistaken when you point out that my thoughts were because respect for his religious beliefs. I could not care less about his religious beliefs but that was my reaction on reading it, pretty stupid to comment on that because I do not even know what happened, I reacted on what I heard.

    And yes, in India we do not have a culture of hugging, at the moment. Khajurao is a wonderful part of our history and tradition, where various sexual postures are depicted. But culture has always been mutable and changing over the times. Right now, we do not do it, and most rarely with the other gender.

    About the jewish man, I was completely unawares of the fact that some jewish sects do not consider it normal to shake hands with women. I was looking at the angle that he had a problem with the religion he assumed of KG. Hence the reaction. It may not have come out, but I agree, that the racism was in his mind and two wrongs do not make a right. I retract, for what I did not mean to condone the behavior but to place it in perspective and try to see an explanation to it. I see the pointlessness in that now, thanks.

    Another Kafir

    August 28, 2008 at 12:32 pm

  38. Jasmine said: “Jesus is in fact not coming back, cos he’s already here, buried in Kashmir”

    Isn’t that the Ahmadi belief?

    Speaking of Jesus, I don’t think KG covered 4:157, in which Allah boasts that Jesus didn’t die on the cross. Instead, Allah made *someone else* appear to be Jesus and that person was crucified. Allah boasts that he deceived not only the Jews and Romans, but also the followers of his own prophet, Jesus. Yes, Allah is proud of his deception. If Allah is such a deceiver, though, how can you believe anything he reveals? Especially if you are devout — he’s already boasted that he lies to you.

    Michael

    August 28, 2008 at 12:48 pm

  39. Actually Michael, she did discuss it, though not in the same manner that you put it.

    Another Kafir

    August 28, 2008 at 12:54 pm

  40. See, ok, if we start on about Hadharat Eissa (saw), Jesus, then honestly and truly, i got so much to tell, but i just don’t think it’s right time now maybe………. u know.

    Hi Michael, yes, ok then, yes, i admit that believing that Jesus is buried in Kashmir is not a mainstream Muslim belief and is contrary to me Sunni upbrining, but i wish wish wish to share with all that good news, anyhow, like i told, i got me own beliefs on that side maybe, it’s like that.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 12:58 pm

  41. Er, not that i want to avoid discussion on Jesus in Kashmir, i will go back to the Jizaya tax. I wonder why the Qu’ran doesn’t say much about it, I mean, it was written at the start of time, so all the picky little details of battles and Mo’s political scrapes got in (at the dawn of universal creation), but not the Jizaya. Is that cos it was Mo who didn’t forsee his warbands bagging Syria with all its Christian inhabitants after his death? But hey, didn’t Allah write the Qu’ran, so the petty stuff gets in (which Mo knew about), and the important stuff like the Jizaya (which Mo didn’t know of), isn’t there?
    To be fair, the Jizaya isn’t applied anywhere i don’t think and non muslims in Sharia’ states don’t pay it, in the gulf life is tax free-period. Some Ahmadis marrooned within the Pakistani diaspora in the Gulf would wonder if they would have to pay this tax, most Muslims would say they should- which says a lot.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 1:13 pm

  42. The Jesus post: http://kafirgirl.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/chapter3part2/

    Michael I think your comments were much more scathing than mine. High five to you.

    The more I read on Jesus, the less I believe he actually existed at all. And the whole Kashmir thing just seems like more religious bullshit to me. Just MHO.

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 1:15 pm

  43. See Kafir Girl, I am not really thinking in relgious terms regarding Jesus in Kashmir, there was never any suggestion that he flew or something, no, it’s all very logical and practical and full of common sense. I can outline it if u want….. it’s up to u.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 1:18 pm

  44. Nah. Lets just try to stick closer to the whole jizyah thing. Back on course.

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 1:21 pm

  45. see Muslims will tell that the Jizaya is fair cos it’s in lieu of the zakat, which Muslims pay as one of the 5 pillars of Islam, that’s one thing, another, is cos non muslims are part of the state, so it’s like paying ure federal taxes for national defence etc, and a third reason is cos non muslims could not serve in the army (which is true today even in Pakistan), so in place of national service-there’s the tax. Muslims will also tell that it’s not applied for all life, or against children and women, and that is why while we see it as a racketeering, Muslims see it as very fair. To cap the argument, Muslims will say, it’s better than Genghis Khan’s tax of horses and women, or Crusader practices like in 1099 which was just to kill everyone. I don’t support any of this, obviously, i am just telling this is how it’s presented in Islamic Studies in school.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 1:32 pm

  46. jasmine wrote: Muslims will say, it’s better than Genghis Khan’s tax of horses and women, or Crusader practices like in 1099 which was just to kill everyone.

    You’d think they’d realize that, if they find themselves having to resort to a “well, it’s better than what Genghis Khan did” argument, things just might have gotten a bit off course, ethics wise. It sounds like the desperate pleas of the Bush administration on torture and killing civilians — “we haven’t done anything as bad as Saddam!”

    Gregory

    August 28, 2008 at 2:26 pm

  47. Another Kafir, I’m glad you’re not mad at me and my big mouth. See, if there was one thing that would turn me from religion, it’s this. There’s a lot of Orthodox Jews and Indians and wahabis, and they all came from somewhere and I’m betting there was some touching of the opposite gender involved.

    See I have this image of procreation as a beneficial and natural side effect when two people feel mutual affection, express it in their physical actions, reciprocally accepting and encouraging one another. This so-called ‘god’ barges in to say all this is disgusting, sinful, wants some arms-length glory hole cum shot with an immediate shower after. No touching, no hugs, no kisses. It’s sick and perverted. I just can’t see worshipping a pervert.

    As for the topic at hand, I don’t see the jizyah/zakat as a big deal, if everybody has to pay one or the other. It’s just a question of how to collect taxes, and there will always be problems inherent in doing that fairly. Mo’s disturbing emphasis on humiliation and subjugation, reminds me of the Samurai’s right to cut down a commoner for the slightest infraction. He seems to be striving for a caste system.

    watercat

    August 28, 2008 at 2:44 pm

  48. Watercat, the more conservative theocratic patriarchy becomes the more ‘touching’ actually goes on, unless women stay indoors. Touching is frowned upon as being ‘western’ when in a organized setting i.e.- shaking hands or hugging. In unorganized ones, in the street, on a bus, touching (sexual harrassement), is the norm in Muslim countries, yet even here it serves a religious function- to intimidate women from participating in society, justifying, for example, increased calls for veiling. Muslim men shun shaking hands with women, yet feel them up whenever they can…. how does that work? Very simple, both are expressions of the same thing- gender apartheid and male supremacy. Never think that Muslim men have no interest in women, like western monks for example, cos as they are improperly socialized, they are sex obsessed.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 2:53 pm

  49. Gregory, Muslims use a ‘by the standards of the time’ argument, so what u are saying is right- if applied to fundamentalists wanting to revive the Jizaya cos they are importing 7th century laws into the 21st century. But the Jizaya can be judged by the standards of the past- so long as it remains in the past. As i told, even a Sharia’ state like KSA doesn’t impose the Jizaya, though the Taliban tried to introduce it.
    One more thing, the Jizaya- in me own eyes at least, tends to detract from contemporary issues of real discrimnation in Islamic countries against ethnic, religious and sexual minorities that is much more severe.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 2:59 pm

  50. Jasmine, agreed. Jizyah isn’t really a huge deal anymore. But it’s in the Quran and that’s what this blog is about, so I think it’s worth discussing. Same with zakat. Not really a huge issue (except for what was brought up earlier about the money being (mis)used to fund terrorism) — but it’s all over chapter 9, so it’s worth a post.

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 3:29 pm

  51. Hey, Quentin. I didn’t mean to sound as if I was being critic of your phrase. I like the way your write and your ideas, and understood what you meant to say.

    I was this afternoon browsing books at a store, and found myself before the religion section. There was a Spanish, annotated translation of the Qu’ran there, and was curious to see what it said. I just managed to look at the foreword because I was sleepy and wanted to be back home and take a nap. The translator, whose name was not arabic, wrote pages and pages mentioning how marvelous, just, equalitarian and humanistic writing the Qu’ran was, including those aspects relating to women that Mo introduced, changing the barbaric customs of pagan Arabs, who before Mo’s arrival spent their lives pillaging, killing and raping. I could not believe my eyes at all this.

    The other interesting part was when he mentioned Mo’s birth, including:

    - That the 300 idols around the Kabah fell all down when he was born.
    - That his grandfather (hey, were was his father?) named him with the very uncommon name of Mo., and the translator even says that “probably he had some insight of what Mo’s task and life would be on this Earth”.
    - That he was born already circumcised.
    - That he was born without an umbilical cord.

    I guess that saying that he was born out of a virgin mother would have forced the issue too much, so they didn’t go that way.

    Lastly, before going for my nap, I noticed that the translator mentioned that Mo’s teachings were conveyed orally until after his death, observing that “maybe 2 or 3 people in Mecca were able to read and write at that time. As a matter of fact, Mo never learned to do either” and couldn’t help but think: “Why god could not just see that the best way to expedite his message through Mo. would be to perform the miracle on him of gifting him both abilities, and even to go so far as to really make him write like –> insert your favourite writer’s name here <–?”. More so, why didn’t god tell him to start writing the damn book now, and not wait until he was dead and hope that those staying behind didn’t start to make their own contributions (or why god didn’t teach him about electronics so that they could make a recorder)?

    Brg

    brg

    August 28, 2008 at 3:53 pm

  52. Terrorism. Islamic charities in the West pay zakat, send it to organizations in countries that work to institute strict sharia, women are terrrorized there as JFP describes three posts up, … but that’s not realterrorism, is it? Just women.

    (ps. not having numbered comments sux)

    watercat

    August 28, 2008 at 3:54 pm

  53. Oh Kafir Girl, of course, i totally agree, within the context of ure work on exploring the Qu’ran, the Jizaya is vital, i was just thinking holistically, as i tend to sort of mix up the Qu’ran, life, social problems, all into one. I wish i could sort of just section the Qu’ran off from everything else except the matters in hand, but that’s very hard for me somehow. It’s TOTALLY worth a post and i thought ure intro up top was cool, cos yes, if u want to think about what’s wrong with Muslim societies (as i do), the starting point is always the Qu’ran and Mo, that’s what it all comes back to, so yes, the Jizaya isnt a contemporaray issue exactly, but it’s maybe something that ennables other stuff (like discrimination on non muslims joining the military etc), totally essential in exploring Chapter 9 in its own right in any case.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 4:03 pm

  54. People is basically good and/or inept. If after so many centuries Muslims are basically in the same geographical area, it is because they were not blood-thirsty (faithful?) enough to convert anyone within sword range. (BRG)

    But that all seems to be changing now. I mean, look at Holland. Things are not looking so good over there. (KG)

    How bad do y’all think it might be in The Netherlands? That we are swamped with Muslims, overrun by intolerant fundamentalists? Below sea-level we remain down-to-earth. We’ll manage, sometimes with difficulty. And prove raving Wilders wrong.

    Humming a little tune while he runs up the hill with the cross on his back. Yawning while they’re hammering the nails in. That would be SO much more impressive to me. (KG)

    I feel an irresistible urge to watch ‘Always look on the bright side of life’ on Youtube:

    DutchA

    August 28, 2008 at 4:24 pm

  55. KG: I didn’t intend my comment to be scathing. To me, it is a serious question for Muslims. If Allah boasts at deceiving those who followed the teachings of his prophet, how can you trust anything else he might reveal? How can you tell when he is lying? I mean, 600 years after the crucifixion (real or mythical), he comes along and says “Ha! Ha! I fooled you! Sucker!”

    Back to jizya …

    The jizya was meant to be a punitive tax, not just a “well, you aren’t in the military, so you pay this other little protection tax on the side,” tax. The jizya was part of being a dhimmi and a second-class citizen. Typically, the jizya would be expensive so the Muslims had to pay less and it would therefore exert pressure on the non-Muslims to convert to relieve the burden of having to pay the jizya. If the jizya were cheaper than what the Muslims had to pay and the dhimmis were treated as equals, there’d be no pressure to convert.

    Michael

    August 28, 2008 at 4:41 pm

  56. How bad do y’all think it might be in The Netherlands? That we are swamped with Muslims, overrun by intolerant fundamentalists? Below sea-level we remain down-to-earth. We’ll manage, sometimes with difficulty. And prove raving Wilders wrong.

    Overrun? No, certainly not. But the Netherlands have had their share of Muslim controversy as of late. I certainly hope you’ll prove Geert Wilders wrong. I never watched that movie, by the way. I assume you don’t recommend it ;)

    Michael, I meant scathing in the best possible way. And you’re right — it’s a very serious question. And one of those things that I think sparked something in my head when I was younger. It just seemed so, for lack of a better word, wrong. Why would God need to lie? What’s the point? All-powerful my ass. You make some good points on jizyah. Again, the words that the different translations used to describe how non-Muslims should feel about paying jizyah are pretty revealing — submissive, humbled, low and subdued. It isn’t just about protection, it’s about making them your bitch.

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 5:20 pm

  57. Perhaps the jizyah is what you referred to when i mentioned the indulgences in a previous post. I had heard of the zakat, and found the principle to be actually quite nice in the sense that [at least when it was explained to me] what you had remaining became blessed for giving to God [i reserve the right to be wrong about that one]. But this shit here, this is a different flavour of bullshit. Convert, die or pay up. On top of that there’s an obligational humiliation that’s only short of having the tax collector shit in the non-muslim’s mouth. The fairness and justice doctrine goes out the window. Do you have any idea if this is still implemented or in use today? If slavery still is due to Islamic faith, maybe some backwards ass country still has some form of jizyah [JIZZ-YEAH!!] in place.

    -Sorry, i couldn’t help myself. The 12yr old in me did that!

    Priest

    August 28, 2008 at 5:23 pm

  58. P.S. I reread my comment and I realize it sounds like I was saying that the Netherlands are about to be overrun by sword-wielding Muslims. The idea of which kind of sends me into a fit of giggles. What I was trying to say is that this isn’t a “Middle East” issue any more. There are Muslims in every country. It’s no longer an isolated religion. And my reference to the Netherlands was in specific to the damage done by some stupid cartoons. I dunno if anyone has seen this, but I thought it was really interesting: http://www.lastingnews.com/maps/cartoons_protests.html

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm

  59. Yeah, the issue with the jizya is that it was much, much more punitive than the zakat.

    “Crusader practices like in 1099 which was just to kill everyone.”

    When the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem, they certainly did slaughter most of the city. However, Muslims did the same thing when they conquered the city in the 6th century or during the conquest of Constantinople in the 15th. (that was particularly barbaric – the Emperor was murdered while praying). After the conquest of Jerusalem, the Crusaders mostly left Jews and Muslims in the area alone – after all, the Latins were heavily outnumbered, and their Armenian and Syriac allies were also pretty thin in the ground, so living in peace with non-Christians was their only option. In fact, one of the reasons for the early success of the states was the alliance with the Muslim city of Damascus.

    Muslims however do not like to admit that, after the Latin states were set up in Outremer, Muslims living there were certainly freer than before in at least one respect – they had the right to apostatize without penalty.

    Quentin George

    August 28, 2008 at 5:41 pm

  60. The interesting thing about the “fake Jesus crucified” on the cross, is that this is a belief taken from some heretical Christian sects who claimed that, as a god, Jesus wouldn’t suffer the indignity of death and that Simon of Cyrene (the guy who helped carry the cross) was in fact crucified in his place.

    It’s also used as a joke in Life of Brian…

    Quentin George

    August 28, 2008 at 5:42 pm

  61. QG, wow, I had no idea that was taken from a Christian sect. Man. Is there ANYTHING original in Islam?? P.S. You just talked me into renting Life of Brian tonight.

    Priest, as far as I know, most Muslim countries abolished jizyah. Yay! Yet there it is in the Quran. Maybe if more people cherry pick the good and abandon the bad, eventually Islam will just neuter itself. *Fingers crossed*

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 5:43 pm

  62. I missed this earlier. This is a 1894 account of an Italian Jew in Morocco paying the jizyah:

    The kadi Uwida and the kadi Mawlay Mustafa had mounted their tent today near the Mellah [Jewish ghetto] gate and had summoned the Jews in order to collect from them the poll tax [jizya] which they are obliged to pay the sultan. They had me summoned also. I first inquired whether those who were European-protected subjects had to pay this tax. Having learned that a great many of them had already paid it, I wished to do likewise. After having remitted the amount of the tax to the two officials, I received from the kadi’s guard two blows in the back of the neck. Addressing the kadi and the kaid, I said” ‘Know that I am an Italian protected subject.’ Whereupon the kadi said to his guard: ‘Remove the kerchief covering his head and strike him strongly; he can then go and complain wherever he wants.’ The guards hastily obeyed and struck me once again more violently. This public mistreatment of a European-protected subject demonstrates to all the Arabs that they can, with impunity, mistreat the Jews.

    I know it’s sad, but uh, I kind of imagined it Life of Brian style and it made me laugh. I suck.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya#Nineteenth_century

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 5:51 pm

  63. The Jizyah is just another example of how Islam is NOT peaceful. Convert, pay tax or die!?? I don’t blame them for fighting, Mo really was an arrogant asshole to think he could go into another community and force such things upon people. TBH I doubt many muslims know about Jizyah or anything else that is taught in the Qu’ran. Which is a shame coz of you try to tell them they just tell you you’re being racist (WTF?!?!) or that you “misunderstand”…

    The whole Mo being a pedophile thing and the muslim apologists coming up with lame arguments against it is pretty pointless…
    Pedo = Child
    Phile = Love/like
    I suppose in our translation it’s someone who loves children a little too much! No matter how apologists try to spin it, Mo was a pedophile..and I don’t hold it against him because it was common back then and the offence/disease of pedophilia is only recent. I suppose the muslims must be pretty paranoid to be coming up with shit arguments trying to make it out as Mo wasn’t one. Eejyaats.

    Humra

    August 28, 2008 at 6:35 pm

  64. KG:The only way Islam can neuter itself if through strict seperation of religion and state in Muslim countries- and even then, it will take generations.

    Quentin: Muslims never done nothing like 1099 in Al Quds, no way, not with Mehmet II in 1453 or with the original conquest also and one reason for not doing that might have been to preserve life to pay the Jizaya. Muslims in Persia also discouraged conversion to Islam after the conquest of Iran-for the same reason. What the Muslims done was more on a scale of what the Latins did in 1204 in Constantinople.
    PS: I know everything about history.

    Dutch A: The main problem with Holland seem to be Dutch people and their lifestyle and their racist belief they are being swamped. More people in Holland are dying of drugs and murders and being locked in brothels than ever got hurt by Jihad. The only people suffering from oppression in Holland are Muslim women-which the Dutch in their multicultural indifference have long tolerated, along with much else. And now they are crying foul. Yeah, me heart feels just broken for the Dutch. Let me make this perfectly clear, the demise of Western European civilization won’t be a global tradgedy, i assure u, life will go on.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 6:49 pm

  65. Some more holey scripture:

    D&C Chapter 119
    3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.
    4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

    Actually, saith Joseph Smith, but what the hell.

    watercat

    August 28, 2008 at 8:01 pm

  66. Watercat, I have no idea how you’re reading that thing. Holy hell, “saith”?? You’re more patient than me.

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 8:39 pm

  67. I ain’t really reading it–used to be married to a mormon.

    watercat

    August 28, 2008 at 8:55 pm

  68. Ahhhh interesting. I’ve dated Christians and Muslims — it, uh, never worked out.

    kafirgirl

    August 28, 2008 at 9:02 pm

  69. Watercat, in India, I don’t think it is religion that makes us not hug the opposite gender while greeting them. In fact, nothing stops me or anyone, but that is how the society has evolved. And to place it in perspective, its not against sex or does not consider sexual attraction the handiwork of satan.
    In fact, as you mentioned about Khajurao temples, if people were to be strictly go by religious tradition, nothing would be taboo at all. There are other interesting traditions and stories which treat sex as a perfectly necessary and normal act. Bigger problem here is the superstitions.
    Back to the jizya, its not just humiliation but equating zakat and jizya is pretty sad as such because charity is supposed to be voluntary and one should have a say on how it is spent. If zakat gets spent for terrorist activities, killing the infidels, then I would not want jizya to get spent in a similar manner.
    One can do a lot of charity without spending even a rupee/dollar, what about that?

    Another interesting link : http://according-to-mughal-records.blogspot.com/2008/06/exhibit-no_967.html

    Another Kafir

    August 28, 2008 at 9:24 pm

  70. wuz interesting. They have an excellent missionary program, very structured, organized. We often had the missionaries come, make their pitch, and I would ask questions. Once they were off the script they resorted to the exact reasoning we are seeing here; when backed into a corner they quoted scripture, and the idea that someone might not accept their holy book seemed just seemed unimaginable to them, left them lost and floundering.

    LOL.They were always saying, “Well, you haven’t read the book of mormon.” “If you read it you would understand.” So one weekend I read it. (don’t.) So then they said, “Well, you didn’t read it slowly enough” Shee-it.

    watercat

    August 28, 2008 at 9:43 pm

  71. Link about zakat being used for terror activities.
    http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEA20080823025941&Title=Southern+News+-+Andhra+Pradesh&rLink=0

    Another link. http://newshopper.sulekha.com/newsitem/2008/08/donations-goatskin-sale-funded-simi.htm

    Also find in the second link, the Shaheen force, the children wing of jihad.

    Another Kafir

    August 28, 2008 at 9:47 pm

  72. Over here Hindus and Moslems behave well, but we are infected with Christians. They provide charity, although most of it is a thin veneer over proselytizing, and they get funding from taxes to do it. As noted here the mormons are filthy rich with their 10% ‘mandatory contribution’ but the Christian megachurches rake in even more and it’s all voluntary–no jizyah required.

    AK–I’m ignorant about India; I had assumed it was a Hindu thing. Now I haz the stupids. Maybe I could ask a favor of you; click on my name and see if I have my facts straight on the post titled Obama? I’d like to know it if I’m full of shit. <:-o

    watercat

    August 28, 2008 at 10:31 pm

  73. watercat, good call on the christians raking in the heavy dollar. remember though, that they don’t require mandatory tithing yet they find other ways to snake the money out of the congregation, just like other religions. watch TBN sometime, see what i mean.

    Priest

    August 28, 2008 at 11:12 pm

  74. “they find other ways to snake the money out of the congregation” – they certainly do:

    http://www.freethinker.co.uk/2008/07/22/god-moves-money-in-mysterious-ways/

    Lance

    August 29, 2008 at 1:01 am

  75. I had no idea that was taken from a Christian sect.

    Read up on the history of the Gnostic movement in early Christianity, particularly the Gnostic Gospel of Phillip.

    The Basilideans were a second century AD Christian sect from Egypt that held the belief that Simon of Cyrene was the one crucified instead of Jesus, while Jesus took Simon’s place and watched the crucifixion, part of his attempt to liberate himself from the power of the demiurge. All rather fascinating, if complicated stuff,

    Man. Is there ANYTHING original in Islam??

    Not really…remember the quotation from the Pope that got a lot of Muslims up in arms? They focused on the “violent” part, whereas the more pertinent part was “nothing original”.

    Quentin George

    August 29, 2008 at 2:31 am

  76. ” Quentin: Muslims never done nothing like 1099 in Al Quds, no way, not with Mehmet II in 1453 or with the original conquest also and one reason for not doing that might have been to preserve life to pay the Jizaya. Muslims in Persia also discouraged conversion to Islam after the conquest of Iran-for the same reason. What the Muslims done was more on a scale of what the Latins did in 1204 in Constantinople.”

    Well, I wouldn’t agree with you there. Vast numbers of Constantinople’s citizens were murdered during the battle, and then afterwards forcibly resettled or converted after the conquest, and the Armenian, Pontic and Assyrian Genocide don’t exactly speak to a great concern for non-Islamic citizens. Constantinople was a much, much, much larger city than 10th century Jerusalem as well, by a magnitude of 10x or more.

    You are correct in that early conversion was not forced in order to keep the river of gold flowing, but the forced dis-empowerment and mandatory semi-serf status of non-Muslims certainly enabled the flow of converts to go nevertheless. With the rise of the Mamluks the process was completed.

    Quentin George

    August 29, 2008 at 2:36 am

  77. Hey you all, can you guys give me some links where the violent history of christianity is talked about. The church seems to have a good control on the media and the current world focus seems to be shifting towards Islam, its just hard to find much resources on the crusades and other violent christian conquests, including the one by columbus, for which the pope had apologised in US.

    Another Kafir

    August 29, 2008 at 5:21 am

  78. Forget links, the internet is not going to give u nothing, read Sir Stephen Runciman’s history of the crusades in three volumes, it’s valuable as it’s totally unbiased. There’s so many takes on it, from Hilaire Belloc to Amin Maloouf- but what really went on? There were grey areas, it wasn’t motivated by racism, Muslims was often allies- also, Templars coopertated with Muslims all the time (in secret). If u want a brilliant contemporary account then read Sir John of Joinville’s account of King Louis’ invasion of Egypt in 1249.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 29, 2008 at 6:08 am

  79. Hi!

    Ok, just think of a similar situation with Mo and his followers, and this post will be relevant to KafirGirl’s blog: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70IAwHTzrHI&eurl=http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2008/08/ahhhhh.html

    Brg

    brg

    August 29, 2008 at 6:35 am

  80. Thanks APK,

    AK

    Another Kafir

    August 29, 2008 at 6:40 am

  81. I think 9:29 deals with Jews/Christians while 9:5 deals with idolaters.9:29 gives the Jiziya option to “People of the Book”. The same is not available to idolaters.

    Indian Freethinker / Anand

    August 29, 2008 at 7:19 am

  82. “Muslims was often allies- also, Templars coopertated with Muslims all the time”

    Indeed. The biggest blunder of the crusaders was actually the attack on Damascus, which, though Muslim controlled, had been effectively allied with the Principality of Antioch against other Muslim states. The ill-advised siege on the city led to them losing their last potential allies in Syria.

    Quentin George

    August 29, 2008 at 7:58 am

  83. “Hey you all, can you guys give me some links where the violent history of christianity is talked about. The church seems to have a good control on the media and the current world focus seems to be shifting towards Islam, its just hard to find much resources on the crusades and other violent christian conquests, including the one by columbus, for which the pope had apologised in US.”

    Well, there’s plenty to be found in both books and online, but I’d like to point out that Spanish conquests in the Americas were not religiously motivated – Cortez and Pizarro were mainly interested in gold. Brutal, cynical men, yes, religious? Not really. I guess the difference between Hernan Cortez and Mohammed is that Hernan Cortez never claimed to be a prophet…

    Quentin George

    August 29, 2008 at 8:01 am

  84. Quentin, hi there, that blinder, yep, ure telling about the 2nd Crusade. Can I tell u a even greater blunder?
    It was the attack on Egypt in 1249 which was led by King Louis and was essentially unprovoked. The Ayubbid regime in Cairo was ineffectual, led by a old Sultan-and posed no threat. During the invasion- the government in Cairo bent over backwards to placate the western invaders-even offering Jerusalem if they’d vacate Egypt.
    The Crusaders refused, got bogged down in the Nile Delta and with the war going nowhere, the Jihadis- the Mamluks in others words- the war party, seized power in Cairo. The Mamluks launched their own resisitance and trapped the Crusaders at Mansura which spelt the disintegration of the western army. But here’s the thing…. the Crusaders attacked when it wasn’t necessary, ineptly proscuted the war and assisted the Jihad into power. Within a generation- those same Jihadists, the Mamluks, who got their break cos of the invsasion of 1249- had routed the west from the middle east.
    Sound familiar? To me, the 7th Crusade is a parody of the war in Iraq.
    This is why as (ex) Muslims, we KEEP telling YOU that ure interventions are counter productive. But i don’t think u are getting it.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 29, 2008 at 10:32 am

  85. that should be blunder (shamefaced now).

    No, Cortez didn’t claim that, but u know who did, or was sort of getting there…. Ferdinand Magellan and that loss of reslity was what screwed his mission up and led to his fatal error of judgement with Lapu Lapu.
    If anyone’s wondering how come i am such a smart ass, i write historical fiction AND got offered a place in Oxford (er, u know like the university- not the drug detox clinic).

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 29, 2008 at 10:36 am

  86. Jasmine, there are plenty of non-ex-Muslims who keep telling the gubb’ment that our interventions are counter productive, but it didn’t do a whole lotta good, know what I mean?

    kafirgirl

    August 29, 2008 at 10:37 am

  87. Yes i know Kafir Girl, but i mean, they are saying it’s to help democrats, feminists, women, liberals, reformers in our countries, but look in Pakistan, it’s never been harder now to stand up for those things and secularism is linked with Americanism, which is linked now with being a traitor to Pakistan. And that’s helping us? Now yes, non muslims told about this…. but Muslim and ex Muslim voices just don’t seem to register at all. If Americans listen to the people they are trying to liberate…. maybe they’ll start spreading democracy rather than theocracy?

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 29, 2008 at 11:05 am

  88. I’m having a bit of trouble regarding a quote from MissPakistan (JFG), who knows indeed a lot of history.

    “The main problem with Holland seem to be Dutch people and their lifestyle and their racist belief they are being swamped. More people in Holland are dying of drugs and murders and being locked in brothels than ever got hurt by Jihad. The only people suffering from oppression in Holland are Muslim women-which the Dutch in their multicultural indifference have long tolerated, along with much else. And now they are crying foul. Yeah, me heart feels just broken for the Dutch. Let me make this perfectly clear, the demise of Western European civilization won’t be a global tradgedy, i assure u, life will go on.”

    Am I correct that you are implying that all the Dutch are racists? An entire population of 16 million individuals? If so please tell me, what triggered this strange reaction?

    Holland? Please have the courtesy to call it The Netherlands. Al least until the demise of our collapsing civilization.

    DutchA

    August 29, 2008 at 1:31 pm

  89. Just the idea that 94.2% of the Dutch population being white and non Muslim isn’t enough for u… like how much would be good enough…. 97%, 98% or 100%?
    In fact, while the population of Holland is 16 million, only, I repeat only- 850,000 are Muslim, which is 5.8%- so that’s being swamped is it?
    What you are doing and persons like Pym Fortuyn is blaming immigrants for all ure problems, it’s not us, blame YOURSELVES.
    Another, yes, i am Miss Pakistan to u, that’s ok, but always remember one thing, I am also British, so don’t presume i don’t know what’s going on and what ure angling for.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 29, 2008 at 1:45 pm

  90. O.

    Don’t know if I should take it personally, but somehow you have the inane notion that being white and non Muslim equals racist. For the record, I did not state that The Netherlands are being swamped. It was my reaction to an earlier post. Just curious what her vision/opinion was of that country you keep naming Holland.

    The dead person you name and myself are almost the opposites of our political spectrum.

    In plain Dutch: Lekker kort door de bocht. In English: faulty ASSumption based on a misinterpretation.

    With regrets, DutchA.

    DutchA

    August 29, 2008 at 2:36 pm

  91. Dudes, calm down. It’s my fault for not being clear in what I initially said, and also for saying Holland, which I knew immediately I should change, but I didn’t because I was lazy. My apologies for that last bit, Dutch A, I never claimed I wasn’t an ig’nant American.

    kafirgirl

    August 29, 2008 at 2:46 pm

  92. Also, and I should probably have said this earlier, Jasmine you’ve been doing a lot of finger pointing and making accusations about people. You did it with Lance, you did it with Nimmy and you’re doing it with DutchA. And you did it on someone else’s blog with ChickenGirl. Knock that shit off.

    kafirgirl

    August 29, 2008 at 2:51 pm

  93. apostate, i’m tired and feel no good so i am going to bed. please forgive me for any wrong way.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 29, 2008 at 3:36 pm

  94. No, KG, it is definitely not your fault, so please no apologies from you. Don’t. It’s not necessary and distracting from the main issue.

    Some last things I’d like to point out and then I will consider this matter closed:

    According to the CBS (Central Bureau for Statistical Data): on 1-1-2008 eleven (11) percent of the population was of non Western origin. Subtract 5.8 percentpoint which leaves 5.2 percentpoint of Jasmine’s white non Muslim racist Nazi cockroaches, including Chinese, Armenians, South-Americans, Subsaharan Africans, etc.

    Yeah, right, the British are not European. Amazing. What’s next? The Japanese are not Asian? UFO’s?

    Guarding the gate? People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

    That’s all folks, sorry to have bothered you.

    DutchA

    August 29, 2008 at 3:43 pm

  95. Wow, what the fuck Jasmine? I’m not publishing your comment.

    I said “knock it off” and you came back with something way worse. I get it — you’re tired and you’re bored and there isn’t much to do. I’ve let you get away with the finger pointing and accusing people of shit before because of that, and because I value your opinion. You’re a very knowledgeable person. But that was just unbelieveably out of line. You can take a break from commenting for a while, till you chill the fuck out and stop making bullshit accusations against any commenter who happens to be white.

    kafirgirl

    August 29, 2008 at 4:02 pm

  96. Another Kafir, above, asks about christianity. In Englanda 1559 law taxed anyone who didn’t go to church on Sunday (about $25). The Pilgrims didn’t like that so they went to Massachusetts; where, instead of jizyah they collected a different kind of tax, like setting fire to Mystic River:

    Those that scaped the fire were slaine with the sword; some hewed to peeces, others rune throw with their rapiers, so as they were quickly dispatchte, and very few escaped. It was conceived they thus destroyed about 400 at this time. It was a fearful sight to see them thus frying in the fyer, and the streams of blood quenching the same, and horrible was the stincke and sente there of, but the victory seemed a sweete sacrifice, and they gave the prayers thereof to God, who had wrought so wonderfully for them”
    As one of their leading theologians, Dr. Cotton Mather put it:”In a little more than one hour, five or six hundred of these barbarians were dismissed from a world that was burdened with them. …would that there had been more … sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents. … We had sufficient light from the word of God for our proceedings.(quotes Dueteronomy)”

    This is spun the way “Gone With the Wind” portrays the Old South, where you can tour these old plantations, and hear them described like: “…Captain Rudolph Hoss developed Auschwitz into a thriving farm, where the dedicated Dr. Josef Mengele provided free medical care to the happy workers, … la li la li da…” If you ask about anything negative, they go dumb on you. Here’s some actual history, the Virginia Slave Code of 1705:

    “All servants imported and brought into the Country…who were not Christians…shall be accounted and be slaves. … If any slave resist his master… and shall happen to be killed…the master shall be free of all punishment….”

    The Pope wrote Ferdinand and Isabella in 1486:

    For the more precarious that freely embraced combat for the sake of immortal God, … the Apostolic See grants them the most abundant recompense. This we gladly confer, and as a reward of their crusade make them rulers, guardians, and keepers of the lands they conquer and of the people there resident.

    This led to the encomienda, a “tax in the form of labor.” Californian kids grow up with tales that outdo the worst muslim apologists, of the Franciscan Missions blessedly bringing civilization to the disbelievers. Some primary sources exist describing life under the friendly Friars; those missions were slave labor camps. Mo had nothing on these guys.

    watercat

    August 29, 2008 at 8:51 pm

  97. Unbelievable that this was happening in the 16th century. And notice that spin with the language, “(the slaves) shall happen to be killed” like some angel will do it.
    So they poured oil into the lake and set fire or they set fire around the lake?
    The person speaks of victory and sweet sacrifice after talking about them fried in the frier.

    Thanks very much for the links.

    Another Kafir

    August 29, 2008 at 10:54 pm

  98. Sorry, not lake, river, but the question remains.

    Another Kafir

    August 29, 2008 at 10:58 pm

  99. nah, Mystic River was the name of a Pequot town–they just set fire to the houses. I couldn’t get the link in:
    http://www.new-diaspora.com/Colonial-imperial%20episodes/North%20America/Colum-English%20&%20Amerindians%20(16&17century).htm

    encomiendas
    http://www.millersville.edu/~columbus/papers/scott-m.html

    requierimiento
    http://everything2.com/e2node/Requerimiento

    California missions: Mission Alcald. (comparing these I think illuminates how Mo’s history might be somewhat spun)

    ridiculously Disnified version
    http://www.sandiegohistory.org/journal/76winter/jayme.htm

    primary sources on (it’s 4½ miles from the sea, btw)
    http://www.kumeyaay.com/2007/11/we-did-no-harm-to-you-two-hundred-years-of-native-voices/

    watercat

    August 30, 2008 at 1:34 am

  100. kafirgirl said, on August 27th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
    Today I read hadith featuring Mohammed saying we should all be killed. So that’s where they get it from. Ahhh the religion of peace. It gives me warm fuzzies in my heart just thinking about it. I believe the technical term is heartburn.

    Hey Kafirgirl:

    Actually though the Hadith are fairly explicit about killing Murtadoon (unbelievers), current Islamic jurisprudence relies on the Qur’an (this also helps with the obfuscation as will be shown).
    Basically murtadoon need not be killed unless they are causing Fitna (strife): so Islamic scholars say “of course Ex-Muslims need not be killed – unless of course they are causing trouble for society/strife”.

    Fitna of course is not defined – and there lies the sting in the tail. Regarding a guy who converted to Christianity in Egypt (Hegazi), one prominent Islamic scholar, Imam Yusuf al-Qaradawi, issued a fatwa stating that Fitna was caused by a picture of him smiling while being a Christian (and thus committing the shocking crime of making Muslims believe that one could leave Islam and be happy).
    So the punishment for the crime of “Smiling while being a non-Muslim” should be the death penalty.

    http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=10161 (it’s a link to a Catholic site about persecution and stuff in Asia and Middle East , but don’t let that stop you reading the article)

    JM

    September 2, 2008 at 1:51 pm

  101. [...] digit chapter.  I’ll make it a quick one because we’ve already discussed zakat in the comments of the jizyah post.  You guys are way ahead of me.  I have to play catch up, and with a book this repetitive, it [...]

  102. He said, “By Him in Whose Hands Abu Huraira’s life is,”

    Why do 7th century arabs speak like Orcs? whats with the Third person crap.
    “Mungo like puppy…Puppy make Mungo feel fuzzy….”

    sweetpityfulmercy

    September 16, 2008 at 2:08 pm


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