KafirGirl

We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

9: Repentance (Part II — The Battle of Hunain)

with 78 comments

Digg del.icio.us StumbleUpon RedditBattles.  They’re all over the Quran, but oddly enough, not a lot of them are called out by name.  These generic references to battles can be hella confusing — one source will insist that a certain verse is talking about Battle X against the A tribe while another site will insist it’s talking about Battle Y against the B tribe.  It’s enough to make a girl’s head explode.  The last non-generic battle mentioned in the Quran was the Battle of Badr, which we came across in chapter 3.  Chapter 9 features another non-generic battle:  the Battle of Hunain.

I realize I’m giving my critics some fodder for poking fun at me here, but get this: I’d never heard of the Battle of Hunain before college. (She’s so dumb, she didn’t even know about the Battle of Hunain, blahblahblah, God’s so great, she must be a Jew, blahblah.)

I also didn’t know about the Battle of Badr.  Or, hell, any other battle for that matter.  They skipped over discussing any of that stuff in my Quran classes and focused on the happy-feel-good stuff instead.  Even after I became an atheist, I didn’t really realize there was a warring, looting, capturing slaves side to the Mohammed story.  I’d completely rejected the idea of an invisible man in the sky, but I still thought Islam was a peaceful religion.  I thought the violence was just a couple of crazies who put their own special twist on the book.  And I thought that whole “by the sword” stuff was just a smear campaign by the other Abrahamic religions to make Islam look bad.  No joke.  I actually bought into that shit — how embarrassing.

It wasn’t until I took a history of Islam college class with a super snarky professor that I learned about some of the shit that actually happened.  I remember feeling kind of jipped back then.  Disappointed that I’d read all of this shit in the Quran in Arabic, but nobody ever told me what any of it actually meant.  I guess it’s a good thing I learned to think and question things, and finally found a little time to read the book for myself, right?

Anyway, enough about me.  Lets jump right in with the verse that introduces the Battle of Hunain.

(25) Indeed God has helped you on many occasions, even during the battle of Hunain, when you were elated with joy at your numbers which did not prove of the least avail, so that the earth and its vast expanse became too narrow for you, and you turned back and retreated.

Here’s a little background:  there were two Bedouin tribes called the Huzwain and the Thaqif.  They found out through some spies that the Muslims were on their way to attack Mecca.  The Bedouins wanted to intercept them along the way, but Mohammed learned all about their little plan through his own spies.

The sources are a little shaky on this next part, because even though Mohammed knew about the ambush plans, they were still somehow caught off guard.  How does that work?  According to Wikipedia, “Modern historians have been unable to fully reconstruct the course of the battle from this point onwards because the different Muslim sources describing the battle give contradictory accounts.” The Muslim sources give contradictory accounts?  Shocking.  Anyway, we’ll just have to chock it up to yet another one of God’s mysteries. Oooooh ahhhhh!  Mysterious!

Check out this hadith about one account of Hunain.  It’s super long so I only posted part of it.  You can check the rest out here.

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 370:
Narrated Abu Qatada:

We set out in the company of Allah’s Apostle on the day (of the battle) of Hunain. When we faced the enemy, the Muslims retreated and I saw a pagan throwing himself over a Muslim. I turned around and came upon him from behind and hit him on the shoulder with the sword He (i.e. the pagan) came towards me and seized me so violently that I felt as if it were death itself, but death overtook him and he released me. I followed ‘Umar bin Al Khattab and asked (him), “What is wrong with the people (fleeing)?” He replied, “This is the Will of Allah,” After the people returned, the Prophet sat and said, “Anyone who has killed an enemy and has a proof of that, will posses his spoils.” I got up and said, “Who will be a witness for me?” and then sat down. The Prophet again said, “Anyone who has killed an enemy and has proof of that, will possess his spoils.”

This hadith actually supports the Quran’s account of what happened during the battle.  There were a lot more Muslims than pagans, but the Muslims were caught off guard and they retreated.  Mohammed says it was the will of God.  Which, by the way, totally contradicts what the Quran says about those who deserted Mohammed during a different battle.  It wasn’t the will of God then.  It was the will of Satan.  But no worries — God forgave ‘em:

(3:155) All those among you who turned their backs on the day the two armies clashed (at ‘Uhud) were surely induced by Satan to fail in their duty because of their sinful deeds. But God has already forgiven them, for God is forgiving and kind.

See that little (at ‘Uhud) there?  That’s Ahmed Ali’s contribution.  None of the other translations I checked mention anything about the Battle of ‘Uhud at all.

A. J. Arberry:
(155) Those of you who turned away the day the two hosts encountered — Satan made them slip for somewhat they had earned; but God has pardoned them; God is All-forgiving, All-clement.
Pickthall:
(155) Lo! those of you who turned back on the day when the two hosts met, Satan alone it was who caused them to backslide, because of some of that which they have earned. Now Allah hath forgiven them. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Clement.
Yusuf Ali:
(155) Those of you who turned back on the day the two hosts Met,-it was Satan who caused them to fail, because of some (evil) they had done. But Allah Has blotted out (their fault): For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing.

Where did Ahmed Ali pull that one out from?  Who knows — he makes shit up all the time.  Anyway, here’s what happened to the guys who ran away during the Battle of Badr:

(8:16) For any one who turns his back on that day, except to manoeuvre or rally to his side, will bring the wrath of God on himself, and have Hell as abode; and what an evil destination!

They suffered the wrath of God and got banished to hell.  That sounds like God, alright!  So in one case it was the will of God, in another it was the will of Satan, and in the third, God doesn’t really give a shit whose will it was and he just banishes all the deserters to hell.  I guess if you’re a Muslim soldier and you go AWOL during battle, your fate pretty much depends on what kind of day God is having.

Moving right along.

A couple of weeks after the ambush, the Muslims took down the Meccans.  And then they came after the Huzwain and the Thaqif to whoop some ass.  There were 12,000 Muslims verses 4,000 Huwazin and Thaqif. Oh, and some angels, too:

(26) Then God sent down a sense of tranquility on His Apostle and the faithful; and sent down troops invisible to punish the infidels. This is the recompense of those who do not believe.

Just like Badr, God fixes the outcome of the battle by sending down an army of angels.  That’s fair!  The Muslims already had the pagans outnumbered 3 to 1, so I’m not really sure why God felt the need to send in invisible reinforcements.  It doesn’t really show a lot of confidence in the Muslims’ abilities.  Maybe he thought the Muslims were a bunch of fuck-ups for retreating during all those other battles, so he took matters into his own hands.  If you want something done right, better do it yourself.

Only 12 Muslims died in the battle, and nobody’s really sure how many Huwazin and Thaqif died.  The Muslims scored big:  they took roughly 6,000 women and 24,000 camels as booty.  That would have been 1,200 women and 4,800 camels for Mohammed if they went with the 1/5 law, but Mohammed God changed up the laws for this battle.

(58 ) There are some among them who blame you (of partiality) in distributing the offerings made in the name of God. In case they receive some of these they are pleased, if not, they are incensed.
(59) They should rather have been pleased with what God and His Prophet had given them, and said: “God is sufficient for us; He will give us of His largesse as will His Apostle. We supplicate no one but God.”

According to the hadith I quoted earlier, Mohammed only gave a share of the booty to men who fought and killed the enemy.  And even then only if they could prove they’d killed the enemy.  And according to these two verses, some people thought Mohammed was being a dick for not splitting up the booty among all the troops.  His excuse?  God told me to do it. Convenient!

Sounds to me like Mohammed was pissed off at all the pantywaists who got scared and ran away, and he thought he’d teach them a lesson by cutting them out of the booty-share.  But when people called him out on his crap, he suddenly had a revelation from God, relieving him of the blame.  Cui bono?  Yup.  I don’t think I need to spell that one out.

As I read this chapter, it seemed more and more obvious to me that Mohammed felt betrayed by the soldiers who ran off on him.  And I can’t really blame the guy.  If my friends ran away and left me standing there with my (hypothetical) dick flapping in the breeze, I’d be pretty pissed.  Some of Mo’s friends also ditched out on him before the Muslims even set out into battle.  They decided they’d rather stay home.  Needless to say, Mohammed was not pleased:

(19) Do you think that giving a drink of water to the pilgrims and going on a visit to the Sacred Mosque, is the same as believing in God and the Last Day, and striving in the cause of God? In the eyes of God it is not the same; and God does not show the unrighteous the way.
(20) Those who accepted the faith and left their homes and fought in the way of God, wealth and soul, have a greater reward with God, and will be successful.

So your good deeds will only get you so far with God.  If you want to earn those extra brownie points, you have to fight in the way of God.  Something tells me that one’s really popular with the fundies.  And this one, too:

(23) O you who believe, do not hold your fathers and brothers as friends if they hold disbelief more dear than faith; and those of you who do so are iniquitous.
(24) You tell them: “If your fathers and sons, your brothers and wives and families and wealth, or the business you fear may fail, and the mansions that you love, are dearer to you than God, His Apostle, and struggling in His cause, then wait until God’s command arrives, for God does not show transgressors the way.”

If you really care about God, you’d better be willing to cut off ties with your family and fork over your money for God’s cause.  Hell-oh cult!  Anyway, check out the bitterness in this next verse:

(38) What has happened to you, O believers, that when you are asked to set out in the cause of God your feet begin to drag? Do you find the life of the world so pleasing that you forget the life to come? Yet the profit of the life of this world is but meagre as compared to the life to come.

Yeah, who cares about cash money when you can have a garden with couches and grapes and running streams of water??

(39) Unless you go out (to strive), God will inflict grievous punishment on you, and bring other people in your place, and you will not be able to harm Him in the least, for God has the power over all things.

There goes God with his abrogations again:  if you don’t go out and fight for me, I’ll wipe you out and get all new people. Um.  Do it, then.  Wouldn’t it be easier than constantly looming that threat over their heads while doing a whole lot of nothing about it?  Oh, and nice touch with the “you will not be able to harm him in the least” bit.  Sticks and stones won’t break God’s bones, because God doesn’t fucking exist.

Here’s a verse that talks about how some people made excuses to opt out of the battle:

(42) (O Prophet), had the gain been close at hand, and easy the journey, they would surely have followed you; but hard was the journey and long the going. Even then they swear by God (and say): “If we had the strength we would surely have gone out with you.” They are only ruining themselves, for God is aware they lie.

God is aware of their lies, but guess what?  God isn’t aware of what the fuck Mohammed was thinking:

(43) May God forgive you. Why did you allow them (to stay behind) without ascertaining who spoke the truth and who were liars?

I like how God is praying to himself for Mohammed to be forgiven.  Plus, shouldn’t he already know the answer to that question, considering he’s all-knowing God?  Or maybe he just likes making Mohammed look like a tool in front of all the Muslims.  God is a jerk like that.

(44) Those who believe in God and the Last Day, do not ask your leave to be excused from fighting wealth and soul (in the cause of God), for God knows the pious and devout.
(45) Only they ask (for leave) who do not believe in God and the Last Day, whose hearts are full of doubt; and doubting they waver (between gain and loss).

OK, so if you’re a good little Muslim, you’ll physically fight in God’s army.  Or you’ll at least give your money to support God’s army.  And if you’re a bad little Muslim, you won’t.  But it doesn’t matter, because God doesn’t want you in his army anyway:

(46) If they had intended to go out (to fight) they would surely have made preparations. But God did not like their setting forth, and they were held back and told: “Stay at home with those who stay behind.”
(47) Had they gone out with you, they would only have been a hindrance and let loose confusion among you to create discord; for there are some in your midst who spy for them. But God knows who are the wicked.

So God actually prevented some people from going into battle because they would have just fucked things up for the Muslims.  So instead of smiting them, God just tells them to stay at home.  Where they’ll be safe and won’t be hurt or killed in battle.  That makes perfect sense.

Here’s something I didn’t expect to see in the Quran.  Men and women being treated equally!

(67) The hypocrites (are the same) whether men or women, the one of them being of the other. They encourage what is bad and dissuade from the good, and tighten their purses (when it comes to spending in the way of God). Of God they are oblivious; so He is oblivious of them. The hypocrites are indeed transgressors.

Yup!  For once in the Quran, men and woman are equal.  Too bad it’s only in the context of Mohammed trying to squeeze money out of them. If they don’t cough up the money to fund his battles, God is pissed at them.  Equally.   And they’ll be punished.  Equally.  God is most fair, right?

Check out my favorite excuse that the Muslims used to stay out of battle:

(81) Those who were left behind rejoiced that they stayed at home against the wishes of God’s Apostle, being averse to fighting in the way of God with their wealth and lives, and said: “Do not go in this heat.” Tell them: “The heat of Hell is far more intense.” If only they had cared to instruct themselves!

I died laughing.  But not as much as when I read these next verses:

(83) If you come back to them by (the grace of) God, and they seek your permission to go (to fight), you should tell them: “You will never go out nor fight the enemy with me any more. You preferred to stay back on the first occasion, so stay at home with those who stay behind.”
(84) Do not invoke blessings on any of them who die, nor stand to pray at their graves, for they disbelieved in God and His Prophet, and died transgressors.

(85) And let not their wealth and children astonish you. God wishes to punish them through these in the world, and their souls will depart in a state of disbelief.

(86) Whenever a Surah is revealed (which says): “Believe in God and fight along with His Prophet,” the well-to-do among them ask for leave to stay at home, and say: “Leave us with those who are left behind.”
(87) They prefer to be with women who (are allowed to) stay at home during war, and their hearts are sealed; so they fail to understand.
(88) But the Prophet and those who have embraced the faith with him, and have fought wealth and soul (in the way of God), are blessed and will be successful.

Bitter much?  These people were rich and they had the audacity to choose not fund Mohammed’s battles.  Can’t say I blame them.  I think the war on Iraq is a bunch of bullshit, and it pisses me off that my tax dollars are funding it.  But unlike those rich Arabs, I don’t really have control over where my money is going.  They did.  And they chose not to give it to Mohammed.

Mohammed, however, didn’t really think they should have a choice in the matter.  His point of view was this:  if you were a Muslim convert and you had money, it damn well better be going towards the battles.  So again, very conveniently, God reveals a bunch of verses about how anyone who doesn’t fight in or fund Mohammed’s battles is not a real Muslim.  And when that person dies, it’s forbidden to go pray at their grave or say nice things about them.  I guess compassion, mercy and forgiveness get tossed out the window when money is involved.  Ain’t religion grand??

That’s all I have on Hunain.  Coming up next:  jizyah, the tax that non-Muslims have to pay for the privilege of living among Muslims.  Stay tuned!


Some other stuff worth discussing, but not worth dedicating an entire post to:

  • (30) The Jews say: “Ezra is the son of God;” the Christians say: “Christ is the son of God.” That is what they say with their tongues following assertions made by unbelievers before them. May they be damned by God: How perverse are they!

    The fuck??  When did the Jews ever say that Ezra is the son of God?  Someone care to ‘splain that one to me?
  • (31) They consider their rabbis and monks and the Christ, son of Mary, to be gods apart from God, even though they had been enjoined to worship only one God, for there is no god but He. Too holy is He for what they ascribe to Him!He got 1 out of 3 right:  Christians do believe that Jesus was the son of God and also, somehow simultaneously, God himself.  It makes my head hurt trying to get the logic in that one, and it also kind of reminds me of the “I Am My Own Grandpaw” song.  But I digress.  Um, since when do Jews and Christians consider rabbis and monks to be gods apart from God? Mohammed must have reached really far up his own ass to pull that one out.
  • (34) O believers, many rabbis and priests devour the possessions of others wrongfully, and keep men away from the path of God. To those who accumulate gold and silver, and do not spend in the way of God, announce the news of painful punishment.
    (35) On the day We shall heat up (their gold) on the fire of Hell and brand their foreheads, sides and backs (and say to them): “It is this you stored up for yourselves; so now taste of what you had stored!”

    More hell-talk, now with gory details!  And again, the only mention of heaven is this:

    (89) God has provision for them of gardens with Streams of running water, where they will abide for ever. This will be the supreme triumph.

    Gardens?  Check.
    Streams of running water?  Check.
    No fucking imagination whatsoever?  Check.

  • (115) God never leads men astray after guiding them, until He makes quite clear to them what they should avoid, for God indeed knows each and everything.Bullshit.  Doesn’t this verse absolutely contradict all those other verses we’ve come across about how God puts a covering over the hearts of people and that he doesn’t want them to believe?  And that he’ll go out of his way to throw them off the straight path?  Here’s just one of the many verses that say that same thing:(6:25) There are some among them who listen to you; but We have put a covering on their hearts so that they fail to understand it, and a deafness appears in their ears. Even if they saw all the signs they would not believe in them; and even when they come to you to dispute with you, the unbelievers say: “This is nothing but fables of antiquity.”How the hell do you explain that?  Oh I know — since it’s in one of the last chapters revealed, this one verse obviously abrogates all those other verses about how God leads men astray on purpose.  So God really didn’t put a covering over anyone’s hearts.  He was just lying through all those other verses to scare people into believing.  Yeah.  Gimmie a fucking break.  You can try to use the abrogation clause to explain away everything, but that doesn’t automatically make it make sense.  Come up with something new, Muslims — this horse is dead and I’m getting bored of flogging it.
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Written by kafirgirl

August 24, 2008 at 6:09 pm

Posted in Quran

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78 Responses

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  1. KafirGirl,

    Thanks so much for this blog, it’s very entertaining.

    I’ve never read the Koran, but always pretty much assumed it was a story of some guy who did what he wanted and claimed that god was telling him to do it, but I’ve only just realised (thanks to you) how blatant it is in the Koran itself that Mo is making it up as he goes along.

    I’m astonished at the gullibility of my fellow man.

    Keep up the good work.

    Gib

    August 24, 2008 at 7:11 pm

  2. Another new post from KG! Jazz hands!

    Ummm I think you have a typo here, no?

    “Um, since when do Jews and Christians do not consider rabbis and monks to be gods apart from God?”

    watercat

    August 24, 2008 at 8:56 pm

  3. Gib, glad you’re enjoying it. And I don’t know if it’s the gullibility as much as the indoctrination. Get em while they’re young and all. Sad.

    Watercat, thankies! I changee.

    kafirgirl

    August 24, 2008 at 9:07 pm

  4. “(30) The Jews say: “Ezra is the son of God;” the Christians say: “Christ is the son of God.” That is what they say with their tongues following assertions made by unbelievers before them. May they be damned by God: How perverse are they!

    The fuck?? When did the Jews ever say that Ezra is the son of God? Someone care to ’splain that one to me?”

    Yes. This is called demonisation of ethnic groups by inventing lies against them and repeating these lies over and over again. Hitler did that. The Jews never considered anyone “son of God”. For them, this concept is blasphempous. That was the reason for them not to accept Christianity/Jesus Christ.

    Another place where Quran invents a lie against Christians is by saying that they believe Mary is a part of the trinity(whereas trinity is God, Jesus and Holy Spirit).

    Again Quran invents the lie of “idol worship”.Actually, idol is only a device to focus one’s concentration on the invisible sky-daddy. Worship is to God and not to the idol.

    THE POINT IS:FIRST ASCERTAIN THE ACTUAL RELIGIOUS BELIEF OF PEOPLE, THEN CRITICISE.QURAN MISREPRESENTS/INVENTS LIES ABOUT RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.

    anand

    August 24, 2008 at 9:58 pm

  5. “(89) God has provision for them of gardens with Streams of running water, where they will abide for ever. This will be the supreme triumph.”
    But “God and His apostle” never solved water scarcity of people in this world (see verses 17:90-93).And God complicated matters(in Salih’s time) with a she-camel that drank up all the water(verse 7:73)

    anand

    August 24, 2008 at 10:02 pm

  6. @KG
    “(6:25) There are some among them who listen to you; but We have put a covering on their hearts so that they fail to understand it, and a deafness appears in their ears. Even if they saw all the signs they would not believe in them; and even when they come to you to dispute with you, the unbelievers say: “This is nothing but fables of antiquity.””

    Yes.This charge of unbelievers is also repeated in verse 16:24 as well.Allah(Muhammad) doesnt deny these allegations coz they are true. For example, Salih and his she-camel was too well-known to Arabs since ancient times to merit detailed narration in Quran. Quran doesnt even mention what was so miraculous about the she-camel.Refer ur own post on verse 7:73. Annoyed that he has been exposed, he threatens the unbelievers with hell-fire.See verses 6:26-27 as also 16:25-27.

    anand

    August 24, 2008 at 10:09 pm

  7. Re other cults: beside (30/31) this chapter also has (110) where Mo mistakenly thinks that the bible and the torah command people to fight in God’s army. Or some stupid shit.

    watercat

    August 24, 2008 at 10:19 pm

  8. What’s with the ‘no blessings on the dead’ bullshit? Muslims, much like Jews and Christians, pray for their dead all the fucking time. Alas women reach equality in the gospel of Mo, but it’s only to be shit on for being unwilling to fight [that 'staying home with women' bullshit]. And while Islam has not sold indulgences like the Vatican has, they instituted the law of: ‘Thou shalt fork over all thy shit’. Give and give plenty because it’s all for a higher being. Just don’t complain when the clerics dress and eat well while you live on a diet of misery and ramen noodles. And like all religions, don’t shit in the church’s nest or fuck with the church’s money, lest you burn in an imaginary place that’s real bad. Be good by staying sober and chaste so you can have decandence and sex in the afterlife!

    Priest

    August 24, 2008 at 10:29 pm

  9. “What is wrong with the people (fleeing)?”

    Hey, I thought you weren’t supposed to retreat in battle.

    http://kafirgirl.wordpress.com/2008/08/17/chapter8/

    geniusofevil

    August 24, 2008 at 11:21 pm

  10. Its so nice that God took all this time to explain to us important things like how to conduct ourselves in war, divide our plunder and subjugate our neighbours, and didn’t waste time on fripperies such as the principles of anaesthesia or modern dentistry.

    Lance

    August 25, 2008 at 12:51 am

  11. Priest said, “Muslims, much like Jews and Christians, pray for their dead all the fucking time.”

    Yes, but it is forbidden in Islam to pray for non-Muslims who died. Note that verse 84 is talking about Muslims who are fakers (those who stayed behind and didn’t go fight for Allah, didn’t fund the war machine, are not dedicated, etc): “Do not invoke blessings on any of them who die, nor stand to pray at their graves, for they disbelieved in God and His Prophet, and died transgressors.”

    This may not have much meaning to those outside of the USA, but when the shootings at Virginia Tech took place, Muslim leaders were warning the Muslim Virginia Tech students to not pray for those who had been murdered because it was against Islam. I remember reading about a girl named Chris (I’m assuming she was a new convert) who couldn’t believe the Muslim leaders were saying that because Islam is Peace. Poor girl. Her eyes were being uncovered.

    Michael

    August 25, 2008 at 1:13 am

  12. chock it up

    It’s “chalk it up”. As in keeping a tally on a scoreboard.

    I did not mean to nitpick on your awesome blog, that’s just one of my ‘nails on a chalkboard’ things.

    3D

    August 25, 2008 at 1:53 am

  13. For a religious book, the Qu’ran sure wastes a lot of space recounting various pointless battles around insignificant town. It’s just as tedious as all the battles in the Old Testament Book of Judges, and just as irrelevant.

    And 24,000 camels? 5,000 just for Mohammed? The numbers sound as about as believable as the Bible when it says Solomon had 1,000 wives and concubines, or that he sacrificed 24,000 sheep when building his temple.

    But if you come away with one message from the Qu’ran, surely its that camels are awesome. Seriously, camels seem to be to Muhammed was gold was to Hernan Cortez.

    The Ezra business, along with “Mary is part of the trilogy!” is an attempt to smear Jews and Christians with the crime of idol worship.

    Note to Mo: If your religion involves praying towards a big meteorite you certainly shouldn’t point fingers…

    Quentin George

    August 25, 2008 at 2:36 am

  14. And you gotta laugh at the ol’ accusation from Mo that rabbis and christian priests are greedy hypocrites, especially after verse after verse saying how to divide spoils of war. Is that why Muslims looted the Vatican and stole most of its treasure, eh?

    Quentin George

    August 25, 2008 at 2:40 am

  15. Trinity, TRINITY. not Trilogy.

    Oy.

    Quentin George

    August 25, 2008 at 4:16 am

  16. Kafirgirl –

    I thoroughly enjoy your commentaries.
    Your story parallel’s mine in many ways, well, except for the fact that I was a brainwashed Christian, and you were brainwashed Muslim. Yeah, other than that, pretty much the same… :-)
    Keep it up!

    ATL-Apostate

    ATL-Apostate

    August 25, 2008 at 4:30 am

  17. This thing about leaving the rich stay at home sounds to me as if being introduced in response to people who were asking him at the time why he allowed it. You know, I am a poor guy with a rusty sword and no chance on earth of camels, honey, grapes (or virgins) to be had unless I go out into the heat, journey far and hard, and fight to be able to raid and plunder and rape, all in Allah’s name, of course, whilst those big honchos stay all comfy back at home. It is very unfair! Why, o apostle, does Allah allow this?

    Since these are big honchos, after all, it would be unconvenient to mess with them. Better to say don’t worry; you, my poor cannon fodder (or its equivalent, back then) are better than them. And it is all Allah’s doing.

    You know that “Allah covers their hearts” is a very simple answer to these situatons? I remember being approached by some fundies one day and I began to point out a couple of blatant contradictions in the bible. What was his answer? “Perhaps god has put them there to mislead people like you!” Then he went on to say that I was going to hell. He said it very smuggly, because I could see that he was measuring up with me, and seeing himself in heaven.

    I wish now that I had known as many contradictions there as I know now to throw at him.

    Brg.

    brg

    August 25, 2008 at 5:54 am

  18. “What was his answer? “Perhaps god has put them there to mislead people like you!” ”

    I would have just asked why he assigns the personality of “dickhead” to his God.

    Quentin George

    August 25, 2008 at 6:12 am

  19. Anand,

    THE POINT IS:FIRST ASCERTAIN THE ACTUAL RELIGIOUS BELIEF OF PEOPLE, THEN CRITICISE.QURAN MISREPRESENTS/INVENTS LIES ABOUT RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.

    Hey that sounds like something a lot of Muslims have said to me here: Read the entire Quran with an open mind first before you blahblahblahblah! I don’t think you need to be an expert on a religion to be able to criticize it. But getting HUGE facts totally wrong? Oh Mo. Should’ve researched. Either way, I think it was less criticizing on Mohammed’s part than just flat out lying and making shit up.

    Watercat, what does yours say for 110? Mine is talking in riddles about the faith that the fakers have built up on shaky ground and how they will go to hell. I didn’t check out other translations because it didn’t sound suspicious.

    Priest, right fucking said. As for the indulgences bit, I vaguely remember something from one of my religion classes in college about the Muslim equivalent of indulgences. I can’t for the life of me remember while caliph came up with the concept — erm, this is from 7 years ago. Maybe someone else knows?

    (I’m sure it’s somewhere in my lecture notes which, like a good little nerdess, I saved and stored at my parents’ house. I’m visiting them for Thanksgiving, so I’ll dig through and bring all that shit back with me. I think it’ll come in handy!)

    geniusofevil, they’re not supposed to, but they did it anyway. Islam can try to suppress normal human behavior in people as much as possible, but a man is still a man, right? They were scared to shits and they ran. And then Mohammed told them they were going to hell so they probably lived in fear for the rest of their lives. Nice!

    Lance, oh but he did! Sorta. I get regular emails from a very pious cousin about the miraculous predictions in Islam — did you know Mohammed predicted rooftop satellites?? Well, he didn’t, because all that shit has been thoroughly debunked. The link on WikiIslam is down right now, but you should check it out when you have a chance. Great for a laugh.

    Michael, seriously?? Imams actually told people not to pray for the non-Muslims? That’s so fucked up. Religion of peace and tolerance my fucking ass. And I’m going to preempt that Don’t-listen-to-the-imams-they’re-crazy shit right off the bat. (A popular one with moderates like my own family.) The imams are the ones who can actually read this shit in Arabic, who study it, and who are supposed to be the role models for the entire fucking Muslim community. That’s who your leaders are. You can run off in your own little world and ignore all the ugliness and hate in the Quran, come up with your own special peaceful version of it, but that doesn’t change the fact that your religious leaders are batshitasscrazy. Do something about it.

    BRG, you’ll be prepared next time! I know I will be!

    3D, I learn something new every day. Thank you! I’ll make sure I change it when I have a moment.

    QG, those numbers seemed awfully high to me, too. Even the fact that there were 12k Muslims running around in battle. That’s not including all the ones who stayed home — the fakers, the women, children & elderly. And weren’t they always complaining about being the persecuted minority? How many people were living in Mecca & Medina back then for there to be 12k Muslim soldiers?

    And, um, the Muslims raided and looted from the Vatican? Details! Man, there is so much Muslim history I don’t know. Want to trade brains? Please??

    ATL-Apostate, thank you! Glad you’re not brainwashed anymore either. High five!

    kafirgirl

    August 25, 2008 at 8:13 am

  20. Here you go kafirgirl, the 846 Sack of Rome by Arabs.

    Once Charlemagne’s Empire began to break up (remember, it had mainly served to check aggressive Islamic expansion from Iberia and Sicily), the Papacy came under increasing attacks from Islamic raiders from North Africa.

    This is, of course, part of the “peaceful spread of the Islamic religion” that I’ve read about in Islamic apologia.

    Quentin George

    August 25, 2008 at 8:32 am

  21. Anyway, the event is famous enough that it appears in the mythology connected to the “Song of Roland” and the “Twelve Paladins of Charlemagne”. In the myth, Fierabras is a fifteen foot tall (!) Saracen of noble blood who participates in the sack of the Vatican, before fleeing back to Spain and fighting Roland.

    Quentin George

    August 25, 2008 at 8:37 am

  22. “How many people were living in Mecca & Medina back then for there to be 12k Muslim soldiers?”

    Treat any number in a religious work with a heaping grain of salt. Even if they describe historical events, the numbers are usually exaggerated and events embellished, sometimes for poetic reasons, other times for hagiographic reasons.

    The Bible has Samson killing 1,000 guys with the jawbone of an ass. Scary that people believe that’s possible… (In the very next chapter the Tribe of Benjamin kills 22,000 people in a day.)

    Quentin George

    August 25, 2008 at 8:40 am

  23. KG: I guess Chris was a He, not a She, but was still a new convert. Anyway, here is what I read (even though you are not a fan of Spencer’s site):

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/016132.php

    I’m sure you can use the Google to find more information if you want. BTW, isn’t Muhammad supposed to be the role model for the entire Muslim community? (Not the imams.)

    Michael

    August 25, 2008 at 9:30 am

  24. Michael, yes Mohammed is — I just meant present day. When you go to a mosque, it’s not Mohammed sitting there up front. Thanks for the link! P.S. You won the Robert Spencer argument. I don’t like him but that doesn’t mean he’s wrong about Islam.

    Thanks QG! I need to join the public library — I have sooooo much history to read up on and I will send myself to the poorhouse if I keep buying books the way I do. Yiish! P.S. the jawbone of an ass story is one of the funniest things EVER. I can’t wait to read the OT!

    kafirgirl

    August 25, 2008 at 9:50 am

  25. I didn’t even realize we were having a Robert Spencer argument, let alone declaring a winner! Regardless, you are welcome for the link.

    I don’t think the jawbone of an ass story even comes CLOSE to the she-camel. That is a hoot. I want a bumper sticker. Or a T-shirt?

    Michael

    August 25, 2008 at 9:59 am

  26. Oh I use the word argument loosely =) I said some stuff, you said some stuff, then I decided I was wrong and you were right. Ta-da!

    The she-camel is totally a winner. It’s up there with Mohammed flying to heaven on a horse. That one’s rich.

    kafirgirl

    August 25, 2008 at 10:08 am

  27. P.S. I’ll work on that t-shirt!

    kafirgirl

    August 25, 2008 at 10:08 am

  28. (111) God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed; that is a promise binding upon God in the Torah, and the Gospel, and the Koran; and who fulfils his covenant truer than God? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him; that is the mighty triumph.(Arberry)

    Mohammed not only thought the Jewstians worshipped Ezra and Mary and all, he also thought their scriptures required them to fight in some kind of holy war. Suicide bomb fans like this verse; Apparently, Mo’s mistaken belief that the inaccurate, abrogated heathen texts say it adds weight to his book’s advice(!?) It’s not like there was some electronic resource where you could like, look it up.

    Putting this in context nicely ambiguates it, as he seems to be ranting against some moslem splinter cult, then he drags in the Torah and gospels. Huh? My heart has a covering, y’unnerstand.

    I also marked (80) “god will never forgive them.” Pretty clear, that.

    ps Is it true Mohammed’s last name was Lester?

    watercat

    August 25, 2008 at 12:40 pm

  29. Crap. That post should’ve included abject groveling apologies for citing the wrong verse earlier. Said 110, meant 111.

    I plead 8:17–it wasn’t me that typed that, it was god. lol.

    watercat

    August 25, 2008 at 12:45 pm

  30. Silly me — I should have read the verses around 110. Yup, you’re absolutely right about verse 111. More propaganda from Mo?

    P.S. I crapped my pants at pleading 8:17. I’m using that in life from now on.

    P.P.S. I think his full name is Chester Chester Mohammed Lester.

    kafirgirl

    August 25, 2008 at 12:49 pm

  31. Hi, I’m mr Lester. Call me Mo.

    watercat

    August 25, 2008 at 1:27 pm

  32. Looka what I got today! Coffee monster approves.

    Also, I just wrote this in the relevant post, but it’s, like, so last week. Since we’re talking about Saleh & the she-camel here, I’ll go ahead and post it here, too.

    Something you guys might be interested in:

    Saleh is an Arabic name meaning “Righteous.”
    Shu’aib literally translates to “Who Shows the Right Path.”
    Hūd means “Forbearance.”

    And Mohammed? Mohammed means “Praised.”

    It kind of goes right along with what Quentin George and The Atheist Jew were talking about — maybe Mohammed never existed. Mohammed, by the way, was not a common name back in the day. I love me some factoids.

    kafirgirl

    August 25, 2008 at 3:46 pm

  33. “I guess Chris was a He, not a She, but was still a new convert. Anyway, here is what I read (even though you are not a fan of Spencer’s site)”

    There’s plenty of girls named Chris (ie Christina/Christine et al) but in either case, it is odd for a Muslim to have a so blatantly Christian name.

    (Then again…there was a Pope named after the Roman God Mercury….)

    Quentin George

    August 25, 2008 at 5:05 pm

  34. kafirgirl — Muhammad not being a common name then? Definitely a cool factoid. Jesus, now, that was a common name — you couldn’t walk around Judea for 10 minutes without tripping over one of them. Josephus mentions a handful of famous ones, none of whom are even remotely the Bible Dude. (That’s why, by the way, the whole “James brother of Jesus” sarcophagus incident was so damn funny. It would be like finding something today saying “James the brother of John.”)

    The whole historicity question is fascinating. I love it in part because it really gets one thinking about human memory, and our tendency to tell stories. I don’t know if anyone has mentioned it here, but if you haven’t, read up on John Fromm sometime. It’s really amazingly instructive vis a vis the historicity of Muhammad and Jesus (and Buddha, for that matter).

    Gregory

    August 25, 2008 at 9:58 pm

  35. KG, thanks for the link to those miraculous prophecies in the Koran – I was nearly converted. (http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Islamic_Prophecies for anyone else who fancies a laugh).
    Seriously, we’re taking shit on this site about taking the Koran out of context, and yet someone can claim that “And by the heaven full of tracks” (51:7) is a prophecy of Air Traffic Control ?
    You couldn’t make it up.
    Though Mo possibly could.

    Lance

    August 25, 2008 at 11:50 pm

  36. Gregory – Jesus is more common than you think. It’s merely a Greek mangling of the same name that we’ve translated into English as Joshua.

    Quentin George

    August 26, 2008 at 2:13 am

  37. And in another good reason why the Qu’ran does not derive directly from God….

    Isa comes from the Latin word for Jesus, Iesus, which comes via the Greek form of the Hebrew name.

    Surely you’d expect God to have delivered Muhammed the original name, without the linguistic journey, no?

    Quentin George

    August 26, 2008 at 3:48 am

  38. Seriously, we’re taking shit on this site about taking the Koran out of context, and yet someone can claim that “And by the heaven full of tracks” (51:7) is a prophecy of Air Traffic Control ?

    Oh, it’s perfectly fine to take something out of context if it benefits the religion. But the minute someone explains how a verse is telling Muslims to kill all the infidels, sound the alarms and send in the context police. The prophecies are hilarious, and so are the fake conversions. Every so often I get an email saying, “Did you know Will Smith is converting to Islam?” “Did you know Neil Armstrong heard the call to prayer while he was on the moon and he became a Muslim as soon as he got back to Earth??”

    Yeah: http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Fake_Conversions

    P.S. They can fucking have Michael Jackson. I don’t care how great the Thriller era was, the guy is a nutbag.

    QG, maybe it’s all just a test of faith. WoooOOOOOOooooooooooo!

    kafirgirl

    August 26, 2008 at 8:53 am

  39. Looking at that page of fake conversions….

    King Offa?

    As in King Offa of Mercia?

    Please tell me this isn’t because he issued coins with (really terrible) Arabic inscriptions on them? Are there really Muslims that retarded?

    Anyone who believes Offa was a Muslim has got to be the dumbest piece of shit who ever graced the earth. No question.

    Quentin George

    August 26, 2008 at 9:05 am

  40. “Did you know Neil Armstrong heard the call to prayer while he was on the moon and he became a Muslim as soon as he got back to Earth??”

    There is a YouTube (sorry, I can’t go find it at work) that talks about the US astronauts and NASA determining Mecca was the center of the Earth. I’ll try to find it tonight. It is a riot.

    Michael

    August 26, 2008 at 10:03 am

  41. QG, the very same Offa. For anyone interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offa_of_Mercia
    I’m thinking about getting the word kafir in Arabic tattooed on me somewhere. I guess that would make me a Muslim, too!

    Found it, Micahel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixfk4LsKWnw

    Oh gawwwww. Ig’nant! How embarrassing for Muslims everywhere.

    When I see shit like that, I can’t help but think how bizarre it is that so many moderate Muslims come on atheist sites to quibble over this verse and that verse when they should be fighting this kind of ignorance within their own community. You really don’t believe the verse of the sword is a directive to kill all the infidels? How’s about you explain that to your own people — the ones who are dragging your precious religion through the mud?

    P.S. My fave part of that whole thing was how “they” wrote about it on the internets for 21 days and then made it disappear. Puh-lease. The internets never forgets.

    kafirgirl

    August 26, 2008 at 10:21 am

  42. Hey Michael, i got taught that, that stuff about Neil Armstrong and i totally believed it as a kid, i mean, it’s a lot less outrageous than believing that the moon got split with a sword and that NASZ found the sword chop, yeah, i used to believe that to, no way, but yeah, i thought it was true. Interesting that i got into kufrism through me childhood obsession with star gazing with a telescope i got then huh?
    There was another one doing the rounds… all these intelocking trees in Germany (supposedly), and all the branches linked to produce in Arabic the Muslim confession of faith.
    See, once uve been lied to, u never forgive. And those things were lies weren’t they?

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 26, 2008 at 11:19 am

  43. Jasmine, that tree one is a hoax. My favorite is still the Allah meat.

    kafirgirl

    August 26, 2008 at 11:24 am

  44. Offa as in Offa’s dyke? A Muslim? Oh who’s claiming that? This is part of a Muslim tendency to co-opt people into their stage play-literally putting words into everyone’s mouth. But then there’s that whole revert (not convert) crap cos hey- u was born a Muslim, wasn’t u, wasn’t everyone?
    Muslims do the same with NASA and i want to tell u all also, terrorists do the same to, they want to think ure all afraid, us apostates also are quivering like leaves in terror. Er that’s ure script, not ours, not NASA’s and not King Offa’s also. Ultimately, this attitude dehuamizes non muslims and reduces them to stage props.
    Not often I attack Islam so bitterly, but u know what’s irritated me? That picture of the kid kissing the Qu’ran, it’s vile, it’s just sanctimonious, putrid, obsequius trash, syrupy conformist muck that has nothing to the spirit and everything to do with some horrible little boy deifying the state run patriarchy he will one day join.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 26, 2008 at 11:28 am

  45. Christians do this same bullshit! If god was real they wouldn’t need to claim celebrity’s who believe (real or otherwise) as proof. The fact that they do shows the sad state of their religion.

    GAD

    August 26, 2008 at 12:00 pm

  46. Atheists kinda do it too, but I don’t think we and make shit up about people being atheists when they’re really not. I think it’s for a totally different reason. I’m genuinely surprised when I learn that some famous person is an atheist so it’s more like, “Woah, that person is an atheist? Cool!”

    kafirgirl

    August 26, 2008 at 12:11 pm

  47. It’s cool, but is it proof that there is no god. Theists like to use famous people to say, in your face even these people believe in god, atheists not so much.

    GAD

    August 26, 2008 at 1:25 pm

  48. Right — exactly. We don’t use it to justify what we (don’t) believe. Hence no reason to lie. It’s more just a surprising tidbit of info.

    kafirgirl

    August 26, 2008 at 1:27 pm

  49. The most common conversions claimed by fundamenalist christians is Charles Darwin, who they allege “recanted” on his death bed, which is nonsense. The story of him giving up Christianity is quite interesting (and a little sad too), mainly related to the death of his ten year old daughter, which built on the religious doubt he already had.

    Quentin George

    August 26, 2008 at 5:28 pm

  50. Lance, I followed that link and found this. Wow! Why doesn’t it surprise me?

    (from http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Ramadan)

    Q: Did Muhammad fast Ramadan?

    A: Muhammad, got himself and all the prophets before him an exemption from having to fast, because the weight of the revelations is too heavy.

    So, everybody around Mo is fasting, but he could go on gorging himself because he has a VIP ticket to the buffet table?

    Then again, it happens now too: young men are blowing themselves up while the people preaching to them keep living on because they have more pressing matters to do, i.e.: preaching other young men the need to blow themselves up while they, in the other hand, need to keep living on to preach and so on ad nauseaum.

    brg

    August 26, 2008 at 8:35 pm

  51. Yup. Same reason that fucker limited everyone else to 4 wives while he married as many as he damn well pleased. Same reason he got 1/5 of the war booty just for himself. Same reason he had a miraculous revelation saying it was OK for him to marry his own daughter in law. Lo! God is just and fair and full of fucking shit.

    kafirgirl

    August 26, 2008 at 9:03 pm

  52. That is indeed the YouTube video, KG. Maybe you’ll enjoy these, too:

    The first is hilarious. I’m not even going to comment on it because I don’t want to spoil any fun by giving anything away. The second is sad, but it is in the Hadith.

    Michael

    August 26, 2008 at 9:07 pm

  53. I just love those arguments that ‘famous person X believed in God, therefore God exists’. Never mind that to have admitted otherwise would have had you burned at the stake for most of the last 2000 years, the argument is also wonderfully self-defeating. For example ‘Darwin believed in God, therefore God exists’. Apart from the blatant falsehood of the statement, it does also invite the riposte: ‘Darwin believed in evolution, therefore evolution exists’. In any case, why an eminent scientist should also be considered an authority on bronze age fairy tales also escapes me – and of course being a famous scientist counts for squat when they say something they DO have expertise in, that happens to contradict scripture.

    KG:
    “You really don’t believe the verse of the sword is a directive to kill all the infidels? How’s about you explain that to your own people — the ones who are dragging your precious religion through the mud?”

    Bravo!

    Lance

    August 26, 2008 at 9:56 pm

  54. “The fuck?? When did the Jews ever say that Ezra is the son of God? Someone care to ’splain that one to me?”

    Hello Kafir,

    I’m told there was a sect of Jews that considered Ezra as the son of God. But it was hardly a majority view and Mohammed is generalizing heavily here.

    Hannu

    August 27, 2008 at 6:32 am

  55. Wow! I’ve never heard of a sect like that, Hannu. I wonder if it was a really localized sect and Mohammed just assumed that’s what all Jews thought.

    kafirgirl

    August 27, 2008 at 7:46 am

  56. Yea, apparently this was a now extinct sect of Jews in Arabia. Some jews had told him: “How could we follow you when you have forsaken our qiblah and do not consider Ezra as a son of God?” I guess Mo just generalized this to all Jews.

    Here’s the link I was pointed to. Typical apologetics and rambling about mostly.

    The other point about how Mo thought rabbis and priests were worshipped shows a new low in resorting to semantics. I asked a question about it here, and received the good-old word-acrobatics workout as answer.

    Hannu

    August 27, 2008 at 8:16 am

  57. It’s Ramadan again in four days. I HATE Ramadan. How do we fool ourselves into believing that it’s worthwile, valid and holy? What is it to be reduced to salivating after a platter of pilau, it’s just religious sanctioned bulminia and it’s degrading, sitting there like retards waiting for our own food with baited breath.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 27, 2008 at 9:38 am

  58. Hannu, could it get any more convoluted? I’m just waiting for someone to jump in with, “Well the translation is OBVIOUSLY wrong — you must read it in the original Arabic to see that God isn’t saying that they literally WORSHIPPED monks and priests.” And I’ve noticed a pattern. The people who pull out that card can’t frikkin speak a word of Arabic themselves.

    That sucks Jasmine. Especially when you consider that Mohammed didn’t even fast. (Thanks for teaching me something new, BRG!) Pathetic. How Muslims can’t see through Mohammed’s bullshit is just beyond me.

    kafirgirl

    August 27, 2008 at 10:11 am

  59. I’m going to kick-off Ramadan by eating a BACON cheeseburger. During the day. With extra BACON.

    Also, while I’m thinking about Ramadan and prayers in general, do Muslim know when they “face Mecca” that the Earth is actually spherical (no, Allah, it isn’t flat) and they aren’t facing it at all unless they are right on top of the Kaaba and Black Rock? And if they use the logic that their prayers are traveling along the surface of the Earth, do the prayers travel at the speed of light? If so, their butt energy/prayers (going in the opposite direction around the Earth) will get their after their real prayers and isn’t it a sin to point your butt at Mecca?

    Michael

    August 27, 2008 at 12:02 pm

  60. Michael, I plan on eating nothing but pork for the first day of ramadan. And I’m drinking beer all day. I haven’t fasted since I moved out of my parents’ house, but I might fast for one day this year. Not for God or Mohammed or Islam or any of that bullshit. I might do it in honor of all those apostates living in Muslim countries who are given no choice in the matter. My heart goes out to them.

    Also, the idea of butt energies makes me giggle endlessly. I’m going to face Mecca every time I fart from now on.

    kafirgirl

    August 27, 2008 at 12:35 pm

  61. @Gregory

    Can you plz tell me the name of book or anything for that matter about John Fromm’s views?

    8:17

    Shashi

    August 27, 2008 at 1:11 pm

  62. Here’s Muslim life when in UK with me family; if i so much as swallow me own spit after brushing me teeth after fajr time i’m suposed to freak out. I can stockpile industrial quantities of diet coke in me room to get through the day (everyone in me house knows i’m not fasting), but if i come out openly and say i got no interest then i get chased across the house by dad and have to flee up the stairs like a hare (and don’t worry cos he can never catch me cos i’m too quick).
    This is me conclusion….. any interest i might have had in Islam as a kid was annihilated not so much by all the stuff KG is pointing out, but by the ritual, i mean, nothin u ever do is ever going to be good enough and it’s just so much pettiness, like God would care if I swallowed a droplet of water or invalidated me fast in some other innocous way, cos Islam is all about CONTROL.
    I can’t fast anyhow, doctors all told, cos of me meds and and stuff, but i just hate the pretence, the empty razzamataz, it’s fucking food, at the end of the day…. big deal.
    The fast, huh, when i was sick at me age 15 crack up i used to go three or four days without eating, it’s nothing as a pyshsical challenge for me, but it’s as pointless and annoying as waiting in a line for nothing. Another, from age 14 i started to refuse to eat after sunset (iftar after maghreb), i just used to sit there and refuse the food, Islam trapped me- but then i trapped it, stronger than it, fuck u and ure food cos i don’t want it- that was me attitude.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 27, 2008 at 1:31 pm

  63. I might do it in honor of all those apostates living in Muslim countries who are given no choice in the matter.

    Kafir Girl, that’s the worst part… there’s no choice and i just think it’s incredibly moving that someone would want to show solidarity with apostates who yeah, are living with their backs to the wall. U know what it is….. u just got no illussions, please please tell everyone as best u can and by any means.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 27, 2008 at 1:37 pm

  64. Shashi, I believe Gregory was meaning John Frum. Good article about it is here:

    http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/02/strange-and-curious-sects-i.html

    watercat

    August 27, 2008 at 1:41 pm

  65. I was raised as a Catholic, and as such you are not supposed to eat meat on all Fridays after Ash Wednesday and until Good Friday is over. I never got it why god, Jesus, or the church for that matter was so bent on imposing this diet. It seems to me just plain stupid and petty from a superior being to focus on this issue whilst there are more pressing matters in the world that need a ruling for than what to put in Friday’s menu.

    I do not much about how Ramadan came to be, but perhaps Mo was bored and/or just wanted to see if he could impose a new creative rule to see if he could get away with it. If that was his objective, he surely did attain it.

    Now, I have also read somewhere (I believe it was in Wikipedia) that the Qu’ran was heavily edited when it first came to be. Do you know whether it is true that the compiler (I do not remember who that was) included only those verses for whom at least 2 witnesses came forward saying that they were present when Mo did indeed pronounce them? If this is true, what could stop two friends of just inventing whateever they fancied on a boring afternoon?

    Brg

    brg

    August 27, 2008 at 3:07 pm

  66. the only thing good about Ramazan is haleem. :drool:

    Shashi

    August 27, 2008 at 3:56 pm

  67. Thanks Watercat. :)

    Shashi

    August 27, 2008 at 3:57 pm

  68. brg – as a fellow former Catholic, I took shared your puzzlement. It only got worse when I wondered why you were allowed to eat fish, but not meat from any other animal.

    My current theory is its some sort of product placement for a church who’s legendary first Pope used to be a fisherman. (The price of fish will soar, and we’ll all be rich! says Peter)

    Quentin George

    August 27, 2008 at 5:19 pm

  69. Sadly, it wasn’t that early that the church instructed us, catholics, not to eat fish. Therefore, Peter was surely not involved in this scam. Moreso, I am one of those who serioulsy doubts that Jesus and his gang existed at all.

    Brg,

    brg

    August 27, 2008 at 6:50 pm

  70. BRG, you are correct: the Quran was compiled and edited down while Uthman was caliph. Different regions were coming up with their own versions of the Quran, and Uthman decided it should be standardized to avoid schisms (too late!). I have never heard the 2 witnesses thing — Mohammed actually had the verses written down by scribes on leaves and bits of leather and stuff, so it’s not as if it only existed in peoples’ memories. So I doubt the witnesses thing. I do know that Uthman had all of the varying versions of the Quran destroyed so that there was only one standardized version left. I can’t remember where I read this (Ibn Warraq, maybe?) but apparently there is a pre-Uthman Quran in some museum somewhere and it’s quite different from the official version. *Gasp*

    As for ramadan, it’s just one more way for Mohammed to make everyone his bitch. I say jump, you say how high. And, of course, he is exempt from this because he was faking it all along.

    kafirgirl

    August 27, 2008 at 6:55 pm

  71. apparently there is a pre-Uthman Quran in some museum somewhere and it’s quite different from the official version. *Gasp*

    Is this what you are thinking of?

    watercat

    August 27, 2008 at 7:56 pm

  72. oops: It wasn’t me that forgot that link: it was god. (8:13)

    http://www.pushhamburger.com/morenews13.htm

    watercat

    August 27, 2008 at 7:58 pm

  73. Raised Catholic/Episcopal and I never understood the point of not eating meat on some days, but being able to eat fish or whatever else. It makes as much sense as not being able to by beer or wine on Sunday mornings.

    “(89) God has provision for them of gardens with Streams of running water, where they will abide for ever. This will be the supreme triumph.”

    This reminded me of something I heard years ago. When the Europeans were colonizing the world, the brought back some Islamic representatives or whatever. They were shocked to see fountains, pools, ponds and plentiful water in the land of the infidels. Since heaven to them included such things, I always wondered how Islam manage to hold on. But I guess self delusion will always triumph.

    Rowsdower

    August 27, 2008 at 8:23 pm

  74. I believe the oldest version of the Qu’ran was discovered in Yemen some years ago. A German scholar had acces to it just before the goverment decided to keep the discovery under wraps. The German managed to carry a copy back to Germany, but he is stll studying it and preparing a book. So far, the only thing that has been leaked is that this copy could deliver a blow to the current integrity of the Qu’ran,because it might have additional/different surahs.

    Brg

    brg

    August 27, 2008 at 8:28 pm

  75. Woah, that’s totally not what I was talking about, but HOLY SHIT that better not be a hoax.

    This is what I was referring to:

    [The late Professor Bergstrasser] was engaged in taking photographs for the Archive and had photographed a number of early Kufic Codices in the Egyptian Library when I drew his attention to one in the Azhar Library that possessed certain curious features. He sought permission to photograph that also, but permission was refused and the Codex withdrawn from access, as it was not consistent with orthodoxy to allow a Western scholar to have knowledge of such a text…With regard to such variants as did survive there were definite efforts at suppression in the interests of orthodoxy.

    That’s a quote Arthur Jeffry via Ibn Warraq’s Why I am Not a Muslim. Check out pgs 388-390 in The Portable Atheist to see what Warraq has to say about different versions of the Quran. Really interesting.

    kafirgirl

    August 27, 2008 at 8:44 pm

  76. Watercat — yeah, I was talking about John Frum. Misspelling, whoops!

    Shashi — sorry for the confusion there. Follow Watercats link for the fun!

    Gregory

    August 27, 2008 at 11:06 pm

  77. The whole John Frum thing is fascinating. And scary. And also kind of funny, because I’m a bastard. Teehee! P.S. Watercat, pleading the “God made me do it” verse — brilliant.

    kafirgirl

    August 27, 2008 at 11:18 pm

  78. Ok, so if the Qu’ran is the word of god then it existed for all time, so at the start of creation god created the Qu’ran, so how come he didn’t just send it to people instead of waiting for the Torah and Bible to get all mistranslated, which he must have known would happen-or why would he have created the Qu’ran at the begining of time. So i mean, he knows two attempts to bring people to worship him will screw up- and yet he does it anyhow? That doesn’t sound omnipotent, it sounds stupid.
    See in Islam, Muslim don’t believe the Qu’ran was created in real time like a newspaper to support Muhammad’s adventures, they believe it was always in existence- yet in believing that, muslims simultaneously undermine its purpose, don’t they?
    And if it was always in existence, then how come Allah was so obsessed with all the petty details of Muhammad’s rise to power and life as the first thing worthy of creation.Er, he wasn’t, the only person obsessed with Mo’s life was Mo, and then the millions of dupes who followed him believing that his book had always existed and was the immutable word of god.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 28, 2008 at 1:11 am


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