KafirGirl

We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

8: The Spoils of War

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Chapter 8, Al-Anfāl, literally translates to The Spoils of War. Or Booty if your translator is less concerned with image. The chapter is sort of a neener neener neener about the Battle of Badr, which we discussed in depth back in back in chapter 3.  I highly recommend reading that post before this one so you’re not totally lost.  It covers the Battle of Badr in the Quran and hadith.  Plus it has some stories about my batshitasscrazy grandma and the infamous hadith where Mohammed prays to keep evil spirits from flying up his butthole.  No, really. Dude had some serious fucking issues.

Anyway, if you think the name Al-Anfāl sounds familiar, it’s because that was Saddam Hussein’s codename for his genocidal campaign against the Kurds:

From Wikipedia:
Al Anfal is the eighth sura or chapter of the Qur’an which explains the triumph of 319 followers of the new Muslim faith over almost 900 pagans at the battle of Badr in 642 AD. Al Anfal literally means the spoils (of war) and was perhaps quite fitting for a military campaign of extermination and looting commanded by Ali Hassan al-Majid. His orders informed jash (literally “donkey’s foal” in Kurdish) units that taking cattle, sheep, goats, money, weapons and even Kurdish women was legal.[3]

Oh lawsie mercy.  That last sentence gave me a fucking ulcer.  That’s the kind of shit the Quran is inspiring?  Ooooh whee!  Strap yourselves in, babies, this might be a painful one.

1. THEY ASK YOU of (benefits accruing as) spoils of war. Tell them: “The benefits belong to God and His Messenger.” So fulfil your duty to God and keep peace among yourselves. Obey God and the Prophet, If you really believe.

OK, now see that (benefits accruing as) right there?  That’s Ahmed Ali helping God out a little. And he does it a lot in this chapter. A lot lot.  Fucker.

Anyway, the Battle of Badr was the first really big battle that the Muslims won.  They were kicking ass and taking slaves names.  On second thought, maybe “taking slaves” is really more appropriate.  There was a ton of war booty — both the monetary kind and the sexy kind — and Mohammed’s army wanted to know how to divvy that shit up.  God has the answers to all their questions:  he tells Mohammed to tell his people that the war booty belongs to (dun dun dunnnnnnn!) God and Mohammed!

Now usually when I read something like this, I ask myself cui bono, who benefits from this?  This is a pretty fucking obvious one, right?  I especially like how God tosses in that bit about how if you really believe, you’ll listen to whatever Mohammed says.  How very fucking convenient!  If I didn’t know any better, I’d guess that this God character doesn’t actually exist and that Mohammed was manipulating people into giving him more than his fair share of the war booty.  ….oh wait.  That’s exactly what’s going on.  And here I thought Islam was this great big egalitarian group hug.  …oh wait.  I’m not that fucking naïve.

2. Only they are true believers whose hearts fill up with awe when the name of God is mentioned; and their faith is further strengthened when His messages are read out to them; and those who place their trust in their Lord,
3. Who are firm in devotion, and spend of what We have given them,
4. Are true believers. There are for them (high) ranks with their Lord, and pardon and noble provision.

That’s right:  the only true believers are those who shit their pants at the name of God.  So all those moderate Muslims out there who don’t burst out into hysterics at hearing “Allah” are pantywaists.  Why does God pause to mention this?  Whhhy?  Because the very next verse is all about how some people didn’t agree with Mohammed’s war-mongering:

5. As your Lord sent you from your home (to fight) for the true cause, a section of the faithful were averse,
6. Who argued with you about the matter even after it had become quite clear, as if they were being pushed into (the arms of) death as they waited.
7. Though God promised that one of two columns (would fall to you), you desired the one that was not armed. But God wished to confirm the truth by His words, and wipe the unbelievers out to the last,
8. So that Truth may be affirmed and falsehood negated, even though the sinners be averse.

Pantywaists!  Some people believed in God, but they didn’t believe believe.  They didn’t throw themselves on the floor and start convulsing at the mere mention of God.  And they were opposed to Mohammed’s God’s chop off their heads & fingers strategy.  Guess what?  They’re sinners!  Sinners I can fucking relate to.  What’s the point of making people chop off other peoples’ heads?  Especially when you can just snap your fingers and *poof* all those people out of existence?  Why make people do it?  Isn’t it a sin to kill someone?  Isn’t it??  It is, but only if they’re Muslim.  Don’t you love loopholes?

Also, did you cringe when God says he wanted to wipe the unbelievers out to the last? I bet that one’s a hit at fundie mosques all over the world!  And here’s another one that I bet they just love to pull out:

65. O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred then they will vanquish a thousand unbelievers, for they are people devoid of understanding.
66. God has lightened your burden as He knows you are weak: So, if there are a hundred men of firm determination among you, they will vanquish two hundred; and if there are a thousand of you they will vanquish two thousand by the will of God, for God is with those who are determined.

You don’t need big numbers.  Not when God’s on your team!  All it takes is a handful of determined men to fuck shit up.  It’s not that much of a stretch to think that all it takes is one guy with a really good bomb vest. Besides, it’s your duty as a Muslim to do whatever it takes to fight the infidels.  Check it out:

59. The infidels should not think that they can bypass (the law of God). Surely they cannot get away.
60. Prepare against them whatever arms and cavalry you can muster, that you may strike terror in (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your own, and others besides them not known to you, but known to God.

Strike terror in (the hearts of) the enemies of God. (The hearts of) is, of course, Ahmed Ali’s addition to lighten things up.  Softens the blow a little, doesn’t it?  Oh, no no, you shouldn’t actually use violence against them.  Why that would be downright uncivilized.  No, God just wants you to scare ‘em, shake ‘em up a little! Right.  Ahmed Ali, God’s little helper monkey.  Take out that part and the verse takes on a whole different meaning:  strike terror in the enemies of God. It says so in the fucking Quran.  Need a little more coaxing?  How’s this?:

28. Know that your worldly possessions and your children are just a temptation, and that God has greater rewards with Him.

Your things, your family — that’s temptation.  God will give you even better stuff and an even better family!  Oh, go on.  Blow yourself up. I’ll just be waiting back here at headquarters where it’s, you know, safe and stuff.

Yeah.  I’m beginning to see how that works.  Thanks, Quran!

9. Remember when you prayed to your Lord for help, He heard you and said: “I shall send a thousand angels following behind you for your aid.”
10. He gave you the good news only to reassure your hearts, for victory comes from God alone, and certainly God is all-mighty and all-wise.

God is all-mighty and all-wise, alright.  And really, really bad at math.  In chapter 8, God says he sent down 1000 angels to the Battle of Badr.  In chapter 3?

3:124. Remember when you said to the faithful: “Is it not sufficient that your Lord should send for your help three thousand angels from the heavens?
3:125. Indeed if you are patient and take heed for yourselves, and the (enemy) come rushing at you suddenly your Lord will send even five thousand angels on chargers sweeping down.”

You know how after some people go fishing, they brag about that great catch?  It’s thisbig! And then a week later, that same fish is THISBIG! And then a month later, it’s a OMFG THE BIGGEST FISH IN THE ENTIRE WORLD! That’s what’s up with those contradicting verses.

See, I keep forgetting that the Quran isn’t arranged in chronological order — it’s arranged by length, with the longest chapters up front and the shortest in back.  So I looked up the chronological order of Mohammed’s revelations.  Turns out chapter 8 was revealed before chapter 3.

Right after the Battle of Badr, Mohammed said that God sent down 1000 angels (on cavalry horses, no less)  to do the dirty work for him.  And a little later on, when 1000 didn’t seem so impressive anymore, he raised the number to 3000.  …OMFG THE BIGGEST ANGEL ARMY IN THE ENTIRE WORLD!

Moving right along:

11. A blanketing sleep came over you as a (measure of) security from Him, and He sent down rain from the skies to cleanse you, and to remove the plague of Satan, and to strengthen your hearts and steady your steps. (12) And the Lord said to the angels: “I am with you; go and strengthen the faithful. I shall fill the hearts of infidels with terror. So smite them on their necks and every joint, (and incapacitate them),”

So at the Battle of Badr, God slipped some roofies into the camel milk to knock the Muslims out.  And then he made it rain to cleanse the Debbil out of them.  Which, you know, seems pretty fucking retarded when you think about it.  It’s not like he actually proved anything to anyone — they were all passed out when it happened.  Plus if he’s an all-powerful God, what’s the point of that little song and dance?  Why not snap his fingers and *poof* everyone clean?  Why do things the hard way?

Also, God tells the angels to smite the infidels on the necks and on every joint.  OK, I get it.  Decapitate the fuckers.  But what’s with the every joint thing?  I checked out a couple of other translations:

A. J. Arberry:
12. When thy Lord was revealing to the angels, ‘I am with you; so confirm the believers. I shall cast into the unbelievers’ hearts terror; so smite above the necks, and smite every finger of them!
Pickthall:
12. When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
Yusuf Ali:
12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
Cut off their heads and all of their fingers?  That’s some fucked up serial killer shit right there.  And it’s not the only place that it shows up in the Quran.  Check out this gem from chapter 47:
4. So, when you clash with the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overpower them, then hold them in bondage. Then either free them graciously or after taking a ransom, until war shall have come to end. If God had pleased He could have punished them (Himself), but He wills to test some of you through some others. He will not allow the deeds of those who are killed in the cause of God to go waste.
That’s Ahmed Ali for you — always ready to polish a turd!  Compare that to this translation:

A. J. Arberry:
47:4. When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads. So it shall be; and if God had willed, He would have avenged Himself upon them; but that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of God, He will not send their works astray.

Decapitation.  Slaughter.  Imprisonment.  Ransom.  God’s fucking mercy and graciousness in action, ladies and gentlemen!  I especially love the bit about how he could have punished these people himself if he wanted, but it’s all just a test for the Muslims.  Better behead those fuckers so you don’t fail it!

But, alas, I digress again.  It’s easy when you’re reading a book that’s so all over the fucking place.  Back to chapter 8:

13. For they had opposed God and His Apostle; but whosoever opposes God and his Apostle (should know) that God is severe in retribution.
14. For you is this (punishment) to taste, for the infidels the torment of Hell.

I had to reread that passage because I can’t figure out who exactly God is talking to when he says “For you is this (punishment) to taste.”

He starts out by saying that they — the infidels — have earned his wrath for thinking Mohammed is a batshitass crazy son of a bitch.  And then he says “For you is this (punishment) to taste,” as if he’s still talking about the infidels.  But then everything goes to shit when he says “for the infidels the torment of hell.”  Huh?  Who’s tasting the punishment?  The Muslims?  But why would they get punished?  Or are the Muslims getting a taste of the infidels’ punishment?  Um, by slaughtering them? Are they supposed to relish the fact that they’re butchering people, cutting off their heads and fingers?

Gross, dude.  That entire passage kind of makes my stomach turn.  I wondered if another translation would shed some light on this subject. AJ Arberry is usually pretty straightforward in his translations — less parentheticals, less apologetics.  Check his version out, starting at verse 12:

A. J. Arberry:
12. When thy Lord was revealing to the angels, ‘I am with you; so confirm the believers. I shall cast into the unbelievers’ hearts terror; so smite above the necks, and smite every finger of them!
13. That, because they had made a breach with God and with His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God and with His Messenger, surely God is terrible in retribution.
14. That for you; therefore taste it; and that the chastisement of the Fire is for the unbelievers.

Yeah.  Still fucking confusing.  It still sounds like Muslims are supposed to gleefully slaughter the infidels and send them on their merry way to hell.  Or, hell, maybe not.  I don’t know.  Either way, this is all in a book that claims to be free from doubt and complexity.  And yet here it is:  doubt and fucking complexity in the Quran.  Infallible?  Hardly.  Full of bullshit?  You betcha!  Long-winded, boring and repetitive?  Ugh, don’t remind me.  Lets get on with the show so I don’t keep thinking about headless, fingerless people:

15. O believers, when you meet unbelievers on the field of battle, do not turn your backs to them.
16. For any one who turns his back on that day, except to manoeuvre or rally to his side, will bring the wrath of God on himself, and have Hell as abode; and what an evil destination!

We ran across this one before, too.  If you’re a Muslim and you retreat in battle:  game over.  Do not pass go, do not collect $200, go straight to hell.  But don’t forget — if you die fighting for God, you don’t have to wait around in your grave for the Day of Judgment.  You get to bypass the velvet rope and go straight to heaven where you can hang out with some houris, get handjobs from eternally youthful boy-servants, get crunk up on some divine wine, and eat as much fruit as your heart desires.  Oh, and you get to oil up God’s dick for the rest of eternity.  Fun!

17. It was not you who killed them, but God did so. You did not throw what you threw, (sand into the eyes of the enemy at Badr), but God, to bring out the best in the faithful by doing them a favour of His own. God is all-hearing and all-knowing.

Oh.  Their.  God.  Glory hog!  God is exactly the kind of bitchass show-boater I wouldn’t want on my team.  As if all those “I am so mercifuls” and “I am so greats” weren’t bad enough.  He spends half the book sucking the shit out of his own ass, and now he takes all the credit for the Battle of Badr?  What a bitch!  Give cedit where credit is due.  And no, I don’t mean the Muslims who were out there beheading and befingering those 900 Quraysh.  I’m talking about the 1000-3000 invisible angels on 1000-3000 invisible cavalry horses, flying around the battle field, fucking shit up…invisibly.

Also, double you tee eff at God’s fighting technique.  He threw sand in the Quraysh’s eyes and made them lose.  It makes me wonder if the Muslims put Vaseline on their faces and hid razor blades in their hair before heading out to that street brawl.  Fight dirty, bitches — scratch, bite and cut.  Thug life!

30. Remember, when the infidels contrived to make you a prisoner or to murder or expel you, they plotted, but God also planned; and God’s plan is the best.
31. When Our messages were read out to them, they said: “We have heard. We could certainly compose (writings) like them if we choose. They are but only tales of long ago.”
32. They had also said: “If this be the truth from you, O God, then rain down on us stones from the skies, or inflict a grievous punishment upon us.”
33. But God would not choose to punish them while you are in their midst, nor afflict them when they are seeking forgiveness.

So the Quraysh wanted to put the hurting on Mohammed.  Can’t say I blame them — the guy sounds like a fucking douchebag of the highest order.  But God prevented it from happening.  Yaaaaay.

I really dig how the Quraysh sound like a lot of atheists I know.  They are but only tales of long ago. Why, yes.  Yes they are. If this be the truth from you, O God, then rain down on us stones from the skies, or inflict a grievous punishment upon us. Rain down stones?  Why didn’t I think of that?  I went with lightening which, you know, happens naturally.  But raining down stones?  That would be kind of impressive.  Props to the Quraysh.

Needless to say, that whole raining down of stones shit never happened.  Why?  Because God didn’t want to stone the Quraysh while the Muslims were nearby.  Apparently God’s aim totally fucking sucks.  And if he accidentally kills someone, it’s like, really hard to bring them back.  You can’t just go *poof* and bring them back!  …unless you’re all-powerful, all-knowing, master of the motherfucking universe God. Yeah.  God should totally change his name to Toilet because he’s so full of shit.

Anyway, God goes blah blah blah about how great he is, and then we finally hit the jackpot:

41. Know that one-fifth of what you acquire as booty (of war) is for God and His Apostle, and for relatives and orphans, the poor and wayfarers, if you truly believe in God and what We revealed to Our votary on the day of victory over the infidels when the two armies clashed (at Badr). For God has the power to do any thing.

20%.  That’s Mohammed’s cut.  But he’s so generous that he shares his loot with his relatives and with Toilet God.  One for me and one for my homies! Only one of his homies doesn’t need money or slaves or camels or much of anything.  God’s preferred method of payment is to get his dick sucked by Muslims 5 times a day.

Mohammed proves he’s not a total asshole by throwing God’s share at people who need it.  He gives it to orphans, travelers and the needy.  Kind of like how Christian missionaries go to really impoverished areas and trade food for faith.  Zing! I’m an equal opportunity mocker.  Go cry to Jesus about it, bitches.

Anyway, about those war captives:

70. O Prophet, tell the captives you have taken: “If God finds some good in your hearts, He will reward you with something better than was taken away from you, and forgive your sins, for God is forgiving and kind.”
71. If they try to deceive you, remember they have deceived God before. So He gave you mastery over them, for God is all-knowing and all-wise.

Oh.  Their.  God.  Insensitive much??  God wants Mohammed to tell the captives that if he feels like it, he’ll replace the things they lost with even better things.  What’s that?  Your family that we just massacred right in front of you?  Meh.  They sucked.  God will give you a better one.  P.S. You’re my slave now!

Oh yeah.  I know that would make me feel all better if I’d just watch my husband get killed by my captors.  Ohz noz, my husband is dead…but who fucking cares?  This guy’s God is going to abrogate the shit out him and give me a hotter, funnier, Muslimer husband!  Cha-ching!

Also, I find it really interesting that God says “mastery over them.”  Like it’s no big deal.  Owning another fucking human being — no big deal.  Right.  I don’t pull out the C word that often, but he’s got it coming:  God is a cunt.

That’s all I’ve got for chapter 8.  Coming up next: chapter 9, Repentance. I have a feeling God’s going to be greasing up his dick even more than usual.  I’m so excited, I could claw my fucking eyes out. Stay tuned!

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Written by kafirgirl

August 17, 2008 at 8:24 pm

Posted in Quran

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94 Responses

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  1. I’m not greatly fond of the C word either, but it does seem appropriate on occasions like this.

    I had this great thought the other week; when people just assume that there is no god without requiring a lot of thought, won’t life be good? Especially compared to a position where most/many people assume there is a god and you have to make a logical case to present to them. So much effort for so little gain.

    Oz

    August 17, 2008 at 10:26 pm

  2. Fucking Awesum post. I’m reading the koran for the first time; You set me straight on some things I’d misread. Ain’t it funny how this non-involuted book can produce different meanings? Like, v14 seemed clear to me, he’s drafting these guys to go fight and saying that getting sent to war is bad, but not as bad as getting killed, like you would if you was a infidel. It’s not as good as staying home, but he has a point.

    I missed god’s lack of precision-guided munitions in v33, and seized on his other reason for not raining stones: that they were seeking forgiveness. Sounds to me like they were seeking him to STFU and mocking the living crap out of him. WTF?

    Am I reading v58 right? It sounds like he’s saying that just suspecting someone might not honor a contract, is reason to unilaterally annul it. And with the last part of that same breath he hates on treachery! WTF?2

    All in all, pretty horrible ‘scripture’. Like my cliff notes, four verses of faster pussycat, and 70 verses of Kill, Kill!

    watercat

    August 17, 2008 at 10:36 pm

  3. Oz, I seriously hope there will be a day when that happens. Our numbers are growing, though, so there’s hope! It does feel like an uphill battle trying to explain this shit to, say, people who loop God to the book. God exists because the Quran/Bible/Torah says he does! Repeat till opponent’s head falls off.

    I wonder sometimes if it’s all totally futile. But then I read shit about some woman who starved her son for not saying “Amen” and stuffed his body in a suitcase with mothballs and fabric softener. There’s no harm in religion, huh? It sucks me right back in.

    kafirgirl

    August 17, 2008 at 10:37 pm

  4. “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred then they will vanquish a thousand unbelievers, for they are people devoid of understanding.
    66. God has lightened your burden as He knows you are weak: So, if there are a hundred men of firm determination among you, they will vanquish two hundred; and if there are a thousand of you they will vanquish two thousand by the will of God, for God is with those who are determined.”

    So here’s the breakdown of who can kick how much ass:

    20 vs 200=10% (so, even if you have a tenth of the forces you can win! yay! win!)

    100 vs 1000=10%
    100 vs 200=50% (wait, what?)
    1000 vs 2000=50%

    That doesn’t make any sense. Seems like God is saying your best military strategy is 20 to 200 or 100 to 1000, but don’t try to fight in more equal numbers (100 to 200) because then God’s not on your side as much and you can’t beat as many warriors.

    Do you think Mo just got sleepy and forgot he was writing a section to convince people how kick ass they are and just started automatically dividing any number he came up with? And then he fell asleep and made a little squiggle on the page that made no sense later?

    geniusofevil

    August 17, 2008 at 10:40 pm

  5. watercat, great catch with verse 33. I totally missed the part where the Quraysh were asking for forgiveness. Must have been after they started losing, I guess. And then right after that it goes into how they were blocking off access to the Holy Mosque. So….they weren’t losing? The fuck? It’s funny because he assumes we know everything about what happened. Almost as if the religion was only intended for locals who were alive at the time.

    I just read over verse 58, and I think you’re onto something.

    8:58. If you apprehend treachery from a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them, for God does not like those who are treacherous.

    So if you think someone is going to break a treaty, you should beat them to the punch by breaking it first. God doesn’t like treachery….unless it’s the Muslims doing it?

    geniusofevil, Mo kind of sucked with numbers. I don’t know what the hell he was thinking (maybe he wasn’t?), but he tossed that shit out so nonchalantly. 100, 1000, 200 blahblahblah. We had 1000 angel soldiers, no I meant 3000, wait it could have been 5000. One angel came to Mary, several angels came to Mary. He’s like one of those old people whose stories get bigger and bigger with time.

    It also kind of reminds me of how they say if you’re going to lie, make it simple shit or else you’ll fuck up the story later on. He came up with these convoluted ass stories and then couldn’t remember all the details later on.

    kafirgirl

    August 17, 2008 at 10:45 pm

  6. That is one truly frightening chapter. If – as I keep hearing – Islam is a religion of peace, why the hell has no-one abrogated this chapter entirely? One reasonable sentence (8:61 “And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it”) doesn’t even come close to cancelling out the sheer, unremitting unpleasantness surrounding it.
    As you say, KG, it isn’t too much of a leap from this chapter to the wearing of semtex accessories. And apart from credit-hogging, verse 17 (“It was not you who killed them, but God”), also works as nice little crowbar to force out any last vestiges of conscience a believer may have:
    “I hate infidels, and quite fancy heading to Paradise, but I’m not sure I can actually kill someone.”
    “Oh, no need to worry – it’s not YOU that is killing anyone, it is GOD…”

    (Oh, and to answer Jasmine’s question from a previous post, I am not Lance Mannion).

    Lance

    August 17, 2008 at 10:53 pm

  7. see, that’s where atheism math is so much easier. Darwin was never like, “yeah, I collected 13 finches … no 45 … no one million! And they’re magic finches. And they can kick all ya’alls asses.”

    And if you doubted the finches existed, he didn’t say they were going to attack you in your sleep. Peck out your eyes so they grow back so they can be pecked out again or something. He’d just hook you up with John Gould’s MySpace page.

    geniusofevil

    August 17, 2008 at 11:06 pm

  8. You know, all the other warlords must have been shittin’ themselves for not thinking this stuff up. I mean, really. You get a rag-tag group of warriors together for some good, old fashion plundering. Typical warband kind of stuff, knocking over caravans, taking spices, gold, you name it, whatever’s there, including some nice, choice pieces of ass, and then what? You have to go all Alpha male on your warriors to make sure that you get the biggest cut of the profits, and the nicest little girls in the bunch. But aha! Mo has an idea. Come up with a BIGGER alpha male who will say, basically, “ALL THIS SHIT IS MINE, AND MO IS MY ESTATE AGENT” and it’s all good. Plus, you get these guys doing some crazy stuff that no sane man would do, because they actually bought the line about dying in battle and getting 72 Hot Chicks.

    It’s like P.T. Barnum meets Genghis Khan.

    Gregory

    August 17, 2008 at 11:34 pm

  9. This has nothing to do with the post itself, but I wanted to thank you for doing this.

    Some time ago I tried to read the Quran, but somewhere after the end of chapter one my brain melted, my head exploded, and I had to give up before I clawed my eyeballs out. I guess you’re made of sterner stuff. :-P

    Thank you so much!

    Mauro

    August 18, 2008 at 12:05 am

  10. A revelation hath come to me re v65/66: I was wrong when I said god sux at math. There’s a pattern here. v65 says a cultist has +10 powers; v66 only awards +2; and there was no dice roll in between, so why the difference? George Sale translation says they are +strength, “ because (the infidels)do not understand”. IOW, you can beat them because you’re so much more brilliant than they are.

    Then he sez his cultists are weak (however), IOW not so fucken brilliant after all, so they really only get +2 power: one hunderd can beat two hundred, with the subtext, you could beat two thousand if only you guys really really believed. Since you don’t suck up enuf God’ll only award you +2, but keep working on it, suckahs.

    watercat

    August 18, 2008 at 12:30 am

  11. watercat — OMG, It’s Muhammad: The Role-Playing Game! Is it D20, I wonder, or maybe a World of Darkness storytelling game? That last would fit with the Monster Motif of the games…Prophet: The Jihad, perhaps?

    Oh damn you, now I want to come up with 5 prophet clans and their powers. The Mahomets, of course, would have the power of Convenient Revelation.

    Gregory

    August 18, 2008 at 1:20 am

  12. Hey KG, what was the reason for starting the war, why did the Quraishy tribe (previous tribe of Mo) incur the wrath of the retarded muslim pack?

    Also how does a modern muslim react to the slavery and taking slave women for sex bit? It gave me an ulcer reading all that too.

    Its sad that that tribe lost the war, giving rise to so many more retards propping up in every part of the globe. Most areas in Asia were attacked in the 7th century so that Islam could be spread, by the sword.

    Another Kafir

    August 18, 2008 at 1:38 am

  13. Bukhari listed the death of Meccans at 70 in the battle of Badr.

    So, the muslim army with 1000 fighting angels can only managed to kill 70 people?

    1000/70 = 14

    excluding the muslim army, it took 14 angels to kill one meccan!!!??

    iskimo

    August 18, 2008 at 2:17 am

  14. “65. O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred then they will vanquish a thousand unbelievers, for they are people devoid of understanding.”
    This one surely cannot be from God. If God exists and is true and promises u victory, even if u r one individual facing an army, u will win. This if u re 2 , u will vanquish 200 , if u r 100, u will vanquish a 1000 negates omnipotence of God. It says that believers can vanquish unbelievers only if the latter dont outnumber u by more than a multiple of 10. If unbelievers outnumber believers by a multiple of say 11 times/12 times, GOD will be helpless!!!!!!!!!!!

    “17. It was not you who killed them, but God did so. You did not throw what you threw, (sand into the eyes of the enemy at Badr), but God, to bring out the best in the faithful by doing them a favour of His own. God is all-hearing and all-knowing.”

    Mo threw sand=Allah threw sand
    Mo/mussies killed=Allah killed
    So Allah is Mo or Allah is Mo plus mussies.

    “41. Know that one-fifth of what you acquire as booty (of war) is for God and His Apostle, and for relatives and orphans, the poor and wayfarers, if you truly believe in God and what We revealed to Our votary on the day of victory over the infidels when the two armies clashed (at Badr). For God has the power to do any thing.”
    one-fifth of what you acquire as booty (of war) is for God and His Apostle- Allah never partook any part of the booty(just as hindu gods never partake any food offerings to them as Naivedhya). Only Mo Took it.
    So God and His apostle=Mo. As simple as that. Mo playing “double role”.

    Anand

    August 18, 2008 at 2:19 am

  15. “65. O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred then they will vanquish a thousand unbelievers, for they are people devoid of understanding.”
    This one surely cannot be from God. If God exists and is true and promises u victory, even if u r one individual facing an army, u will win. This if u re 2 , u will vanquish 200 , if u r 100, u will vanquish a 1000 negates omnipotence of God. It says that believers can vanquish unbelievers only if the latter dont outnumber u by more than a multiple of 10. If unbelievers outnumber believers by a multiple of say 11 times/12 times, GOD will be helpless!!!!!!!!!!!

    Anand

    August 18, 2008 at 2:20 am

  16. “Another Kafir” – the reason basically boils down to this:

    Most of the pagans of Mohammed’s people 1) knew Mohammed was a fraud 2) called him out on it and 3) continued to mock the poor sensitive guy.

    Quentin George

    August 18, 2008 at 2:25 am

  17. “This one surely cannot be from God. If God exists and is true and promises u victory, even if u r one individual facing an army, u will win.”

    Not so! You want ridiculous? In the Bible and Torah, God fails to help the Israelites conquer Canaan because their opponents….had iron chariots.

    God’s power wasn’t waning…it was just becoming more….selective.

    Quentin George

    August 18, 2008 at 2:26 am

  18. “30. Remember, when the infidels contrived to make you a prisoner or to murder or expel you, they plotted, but God also planned; and God’s plan is the best.”

    [008:030] Wa-ith yamkuru bika allatheena kafaroo liyuthbitooka aw yaqtulooka aw yukhrijooka wayamkuroona wayamkuru Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

    khayru almakireena=best of deceivers.
    Mo got this idea propbably from Hindu hymn devoted to Shiva in taittryia samhita Yajur Veda(Rudram) where it is said “Vanchate Pari vanchate”(Oh! Deceiver! Oh! Best of Deceivers!)

    Miim-Kaf-Ra = To practice deceit or guile or circumvention, practice evasion or elusion, to plot, to excercise art or craft or cunning, act with policy, practice strategem.

    makara vb. (1)
    perf. act. 3:54, 3:54, 7:123, 13:42, 14:46, 16:26, 16:45, 27:50, 40:45, 71:22
    impf. act. 6:123, 6:123, 6:124, 8:30, 8:30, 8:30, 10:21, 12:102, 16:127, 27:70, 35:10
    n.vb. 7:99, 7:99, 7:123, 10:21, 10:21, 12:31, 13:33, 13:42, 14:46, 14:46, 14:46, 27:50, 27:50, 27:51, 34:33, 35:10, 35:43, 35:43, 71:22
    pcple. act. 3:54, 8:30
    LL, V7, p: 256

    http://www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_best_deceiver.htm

    Anand

    August 18, 2008 at 2:30 am

  19. “excluding the muslim army, it took 14 angels to kill one meccan!!!??”
    And 1000 Angels can come to Kill Meccans for not accepting (blindly) that Mo is Prophet from sky-daddy.But not one Angel can appear b4 all Meccans to convince them that Mo is Prophet of Allah.

    Anand

    August 18, 2008 at 2:45 am

  20. @Quentin George

    I had guessed it would boil down to that, but any ideas on the events preceeding the war and why it was taken up at all.
    It is always alleged that the violence against them was instigated, but what kind of instigation makes God want to kill all unbelievers is what I am curious about.

    Another Kafir

    August 18, 2008 at 5:12 am

  21. I imagine the Meccans also believed (correctly as it turned out) that Mohammed was planning on destroying their religion.

    Quentin George

    August 18, 2008 at 5:28 am

  22. “I had guessed it would boil down to that, but any ideas on the events preceeding the war and why it was taken up at all.
    It is always alleged that the violence against them was instigated, but what kind of instigation makes God want to kill all unbelievers is what I am curious about.”
    Simple.
    1.Mo made a very tall claim that he was the Messenger of Allah. “Allah says that all pagans shud submit to His will and give up worship of idols and deities other than Allah that pagans had worshipped all these years.”
    2.Pagans refused to accept Mo’s claims without proof. They challenged Mo to prove his credentials-See verse 17:90-93 and also some verses KG has discussed in her post on Sura 6.
    3.Mo said that his verses (ayats) were the miracle/ Pagans were not impressed as these were only ancient fairytales raheashed.Best example is of Salih and she-camel discussed by KG in Sura 7-Part IV/V.-Verses 7:73.See also verse 16:24
    4.pAGANS not impressed.They ask Mo why Allah wud want them to abandon the traditional worship which they wwre doing for all these centuries.They asked Mo why they cud have worshipped idols/many deities all these years if Allah didnt want them to? The cudnt believe that Allah had no objection to their religion all these years but suddenly started objecting.
    5.Mo cudnt answer logically and held ou hell-fire-threads.
    6.Mo and his followers reviled pagan deities.-verse 6:108.Mo also threatened pagans with slaughter and bloodshed.Pagans decided to kill him.
    7.Mo and his group escape to Medina. No other occupation.So they looted caravans of Pagans.Most famous loot is Battle of Badr.

    Anand

    August 18, 2008 at 6:28 am

  23. “They ask Mo why Allah wud want them to abandon the traditional worship which they wwre doing for all these centuries.”
    See verse 16:35.

    Anand

    August 18, 2008 at 6:30 am

  24. Anand – you missed the crucial “Satanic Verses” episode where Mohammed, realising he had little support, claimed that Allah was going to allow you to worship other gods after all. This probably saved the fledgling Islamic movement from being wiped out.

    Of course as soon as he was in a position of power, he rescinded the edict and claimed he’d inadvertently channeled Satan.

    Leaving aside the fact that it seems Mohammed was unable to tell the difference between the voices of God and Satan, we are also left with one other point, somewhat unsettling to devout Muslims. Satan saved Islam from extinction!

    Awfully nice of Old Scratch.

    Quentin George

    August 18, 2008 at 7:17 am

  25. “Anand – you missed the crucial “Satanic Verses” episode where Mohammed, ……. Satan saved Islam from extinction!

    Awfully nice of Old Scratch.”
    Perfect analysis. In 2:106, Quran says Allah abrogates His own words. In 22:52-53, v r told that Allah cancels Satan’s words.
    So, Allah=Satan?
    Another noteworthy point is in chapter 15/38, v come accross Iblis telling Allah that with Allah’s grace Iblis WILL MISLEAD ALL EXCEPT ALLAH’S MOST DEVOUT SERVANTS. IN OTHER WORDS, IBLIS MISLEADS NON-MUSLIMS TOWARDS ISLAM.

    Another embarassing mix-up is Solomon’s story. Seems that for a certain period, Satan impersonated as Solomon. If Satan can impersonate Prophets of Islam-Solomon, y cant Satan come in guise of Muhammad?

    Abraham-a prophet of Islam is a liar-see Quran 21:51-71.
    AND ALLAH IS BEST OF DECEIVERS.

    AND AFTER ALL THIS A BILLION AND MORE ARE MUSLIMS.

    Anand

    August 18, 2008 at 7:33 am

  26. Lance, “I hate infidels, and quite fancy heading to Paradise, but I’m not sure I can actually kill someone.”
    “Oh, no need to worry – it’s not YOU that is killing anyone, it is GOD…”
    Yeah. Exactly. You can take a bit of this and a bit of that and string it all together to come to the conclusion that God wants you to kill infidels. I honestly don’t get where the religion of peace thing comes from — perhaps from people like my parents, who practice a very watered down version of the religion. Depressing.

    Gregory, there’s a hadith I read a couple of days ago that perfectly fits in to what you’re saying about the alpha male shit (will find the URL later if you like because it’s morning coffee time and I’m all slooooow). So at the Battle of Badr, Mohammed is giving his big speech about how they go to heaven if they die in the battle, etc. And one guy gets all worked up and says, “That’s all that stands between me and God??” He throws down his handful of dates and rides his horse right into the army where he takes down a couple before they kill him. Yeah. A little 300 / fiction-y, but it’s still pretty intense. Death didn’t just become inconsequential, it became desired. And life became pretty fucking meaningless (see all those verses about how the life of this world is nothing compared to the life of the next).

    Mauro, thank you! I can be one stubborn girl. Hope you’re enjoying it so far.

    Another Kafir, it’s like what Quentin George said: the Quraysh knew he was a bullshitter and they made fun of him as often as they could. But the official version is that the Quraysh stole the Muslims’ money and stuff while they were away (at battle, maybe?). And they were using that stolen money to fund a caravan from Syria to Mecca. The Muslims got pissed and fucked that shit up. Is there evidence that this happened outside of the hadith? No idea. But it’s a hell of a way to get people riled up for battle. THOSE FUCKERS STOLE OUR STUFF!

    How does the modern Muslim react to slavery and concubines? They don’t. And I’m speaking for the Muslims I know — mostly moderate, some liberal — since we have discussed it at great length. They don’t know it’s in there, and they refuse to believe that it is. And they very conveniently “don’t have access to” a Quran-in-English to check. Denial, denial, denial!

    Incidentally a commenter named Priest left a Wikipedia link in another post that covers modern day slavery. The bulk of it is in Africa and *gasp* the Middle East and *double gasp* South Asia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Current_situation

    kafirgirl

    August 18, 2008 at 8:24 am

  27. Iskimo, do you know the book & number of the Bukhari hadith? I would love to see that! If it took 14 angels to kill 1 Quraysh, then the Quraysh are the real fucking heroes of this thing. That would have been a hell of a fight. ….unless the angels really do look like little flying babies. Plus if you go with the 3000 number, that means it took approximately 42.86 angels to take down one man. The fuck??

    And hell, just for the sake of argument, lets say the hadith is wrong. Lets say they killed everyone. That’s still 1.05 angel per man at 1000 angels. Or 3.15 angels if there were 3000.

    Mo seriously didn’t put much thought into this shit.

    Quentin George, In the Bible and Torah, God fails to help the Israelites conquer Canaan because their opponents….had iron chariots. That is my fucking favorite part of the Bible. It makes me die laughing every time.

    And, ohhh, the Satanic Verses. I remember after all the fuss about that book happened, I asked my parents to explain the SV to me. They did, but it didn’t make any sense. How could God a) just let Satan do that to his prophet? and b) not correct the error for a while? Cui bono? Yeah. Another obvious one.

    kafirgirl

    August 18, 2008 at 8:34 am

  28. »Is there evidence that this happened outside of the hadith?«
    Kafirgirl, there is no evidence outside hadith and sira that there was a tribe called Quraysh and that the Kaaba was a pagan sanctuary, much less of Mohammed’s battles.

    »do you know the book & number of the Bukhari hadith?«
    Vol: 4, Book: 52, Number: 276
    “On the day (of the battle) of badr, the Prophet and his companions had caused the Pagans to lose 140 men, seventy of whom were captured and seventy were killed.”

    kereng

    August 18, 2008 at 10:17 am

  29. Kereng, thank you! No evidence of Mohammed’s battle either, huh? Why am I not surprised?

    kafirgirl

    August 18, 2008 at 10:20 am

  30. The battle site is bleak, it’s all like volcanic rocks and it’s like this wretched black landscape, nothin grows there at all, just black-brown mountains, totally desolate. And when u stand there u just feel bored and dont feel anything spiritual at all, just like it was a battle, that’s it. And drive 20 miutes or so, and ure in Medina, villas, shops, again, u just feel nothing.
    But this is what i want to tell, this is me own opinion, Qu’ran can deeply move, how? (Given the dreary subject matter). It is pathetically COMFORTING. Again, how?
    Ok, i found meself reciting sura 8 involuntarily just now to research this post and realized that very accurate recitiation is comforting- simply cos it is pitch, the pitch of the words, and the breathing control, it’s like murmuring a lullaby and u become absorbed and mellowed as u do it somehow. Very hard to explain this, but it’s not Qu’ran itself, it’s intonation, pausing (breathing) and pitch of the words, rather than their message (which most Urdu speakers don’t even understand anyhow).

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 18, 2008 at 10:34 am

  31. KG, I saw the link, its damn sad. I think a muslim can not use the morality argument in favor of Quran, because except zakat and some other charity, there is hardly anything which can be called moral. Bible on the other hand has the benefit of the wisdom of the jews, like love thy neighbor and stuff.
    Its all shit anyway, its damn depressing how slavery and rape is condoned.
    If people should take up arms against anything I hope that they would against slavery and rape, instead of against other innocent people who worship a different God.

    Another Kafir

    August 18, 2008 at 11:25 am

  32. Jasminefrompakistan

    Re: “Ok, i found meself reciting sura 8 involuntarily just now to research this post and realized that very accurate recitation is comforting- simply cos it is pitch, the pitch of the words, and the breathing control, it’s like murmuring a lullaby and u become absorbed and mellowed as u do it somehow.

    >>murmuring a lullaby? I suppose it’s a good thing the Arabic meanings of those lullaby-like words are unintelligible to most Muslims?

    Re “Very hard to explain this, but it’s not Qu’ran itself, it’s intonation, pausing (breathing) and pitch of the words, rather than their message (which most Urdu speakers don’t even understand anyhow).”

    >> yeah, I get all emotional too when I read ‘Hon’ in Welsh by T. H. Parry Williams. The ‘miraculous’ iambic heptameter is lost in English translation. And that’s right, iambic heptameter is not found in the Koran – so how can it be the word of god? This is why EVERYONE needs to learn Welsh otherwise there is NO WAY they will ever understand the language of paradise and they will have great bother after judgment day when they need to ask the where abouts of the toilet.

    kics

    August 18, 2008 at 11:35 am

  33. Bible on the other hand has the benefit of the wisdom of the jews, like love thy neighbor and stuff.

    Don’t kid yourself, the Jews got nothing on Mo.

    Here’s a gem, Rules for raping your slave girl:

    21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
    21:11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
    21:12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
    21:13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
    21:14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

    GAD

    August 18, 2008 at 11:44 am

  34. Yeah, the Bible is just as fucked up as the Quran. That book’ll tell ya how much to pay for a slave, just in case you wondered.

    kafirgirl

    August 18, 2008 at 12:05 pm

  35. In the country were i grew up, Saudi Arabia, slavery was abolished in………. yeah, wtf, 1971.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 18, 2008 at 12:09 pm

  36. Ure all analyzing from the basis of theology, so fall into the trap of comparing Jews with Mo with Christian side… but u got to understand none of it makes sense, i mean, u can’t rationalize it, unless u fully understand that these are not divine injunctions, just the modus operandi of theocratic patriarchy which explains god’s misogyny. U can chat about the Qu’ran and how bad the rape and bad stuff is, good, it’s valid as a expose of god’s already well publicized genocidal streak, but that can’t help u understand why it’s there, aytheistim alone doesn’t give much answers, and, i should say, u can easily miss the point if u haven’t done feminism 101.
    If not, u just end up with, “The Qu’ran has bad stuff and it’s shit and god isn’t cool and it’s a nasty book.”
    Er, that answers nothing. Feminism explains the patriacrhal impulse behind this whole heap of manipulative garbage, and provides both explanation and anti thesis.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 18, 2008 at 12:20 pm

  37. Kicks,

    iambic heptameter is different, this is not metre, it’s something called ‘harakat,’ or ‘movement’. This restricts ure breathing when u recite, retaining ure breath for 2, 6 or 6 beats and the effect is to induce a altered state and the effect is similar to yoga exercises.
    Part of the Qu’ran’s power in our culture is we can’t understand it, so the words take on a life of their own and have almost “magical” significance. This is all part of the con, one of dozens i can tell u about that westerners will not have even thought of.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 18, 2008 at 12:42 pm

  38. U did decide U wouldn’t be calling Allah ‘God’ but allah, arhough I can identify with Ur reservations, the name ‘allah’ must be the severest test for the taste buds …

    Anubis

    August 18, 2008 at 1:03 pm

  39. although **

    Anubis

    August 18, 2008 at 1:04 pm

  40. 21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, …

    If that was a part of the Koran few people would doubt that this is Allah speaking to Mohammed. And for sure Ibn Ishaq would have mentioned the name of the poor girl and how her parents came to death. And the time and place of the battle would be well known.

    My point is: The early muslims read the Koran and made up stories to explain it.

    Part of the Qu’ran’s power in our culture is we can’t understand it, so the words take on a life of their own and have almost “magical” significance.

    The same applies to the Catholic church and the Latin language.

    kereng

    August 18, 2008 at 1:17 pm

  41. Jesus, JfP, they even teach breath retention? Fuck me.

    Gregorian chants serve the same function for the catholics. We had them in sunday services on special occaisions. Then later, in Yoga, same as JfP describes. Psychological control methods. Maybe that’s what we should focus on when talking to “bleevers”. Logic sure doesn’t matter.

    watercat

    August 18, 2008 at 1:32 pm

  42. Logic sure doesn’t matter.

    If logic and reason mattered it wouldn’t be religion it would be science.

    GAD

    August 18, 2008 at 1:46 pm

  43. Here’s something a little less depressing I hope

    http://lolkoran.blogspot.com/2008/08/genesis.html

    watercat

    August 18, 2008 at 1:49 pm

  44. Yes Watercat, u didn’t know that? Part of the horrible thing about learning to recite Qu’ran is the rap u get if u get ure intonation or screw up ure syllable stress, so it’s all about mechanics, breath retetention and rhythmn (and rocking also maybe) are the comforting parts somehow.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 18, 2008 at 1:55 pm

  45. No, this is all news to me. (a revelation LOL) I don’t know any muslims, in my whole life I’ve only known one that I know of. So keep telling me stuff. :-)

    OK, I’m two years old: I tried to send a comment(twice) with a link in it, but the gods of cyberspace ate them. It worked on another blog. Maybe it’s WordPress vs Blogger? but it’s accepting the link–you can get there by clicking on my name, it just hates that one post … and I’m too n00b to guess why, or even know how to send Kafirgirl a private message asking about it. I suck.

    watercat

    August 18, 2008 at 3:18 pm

  46. Well fuck! Now they both show up! Maybe Iblis?

    watercat

    August 18, 2008 at 3:19 pm

  47. I got taught the Battle of Badr at mosque, not that I remember any of it, coz it like totally fucking sucked ass! Not only that, but didn’t Mo and his crew lose a couple of battles…along with his Uncle Hamza having his heart (some organ or other) getting eaten by some cannabilistic bitch? God wasn’t very helpful then now was he…

    “For many centuries, Muslim armies would purge Christian and Hindu peasant villages of their menfolk and send the women and children to harems and the thriving child sex slave markets deep in the Islamic world. The Ayatollah Khomeini, who married a 12-year-old girl, even gave his consent to using infants for sexual pleasure (although warning against full penetration until the baby is a few years older).” [http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/025-Muhammads-sex-life.htm]
    Disgusting!

    Humra

    August 18, 2008 at 3:26 pm

  48. “65. O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred then they will vanquish a thousand unbelievers, for they are people devoid of understanding.”

    So, there was a lack of either angels or determined Muslims when they got kicked out from Portugal and Spain, and from Austria, Hungary and thereabouts, circa the XV and later centuries?

    What about right now? Why the angels are lacking in Irak and Afghanistan? Why they do not take over the unfaithful countries with so many angels on reserve?

    As for “4. So, when you clash with the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overpower them, then hold them in bondage… If God had pleased He could have punished them (Himself), but He wills to test some of you through some others…”

    Doesn’t this correspond exactly to the images we have watched of hostages in Irak being bonded and decapitated?

    Brg

    brg

    August 18, 2008 at 3:42 pm

  49. Humra, her name was Hind and that stuff is part of the propaganda against anyone who opposed Mo- think Abu Lahab or Asma Bint Marwan. There were hits going on left right and center and though Hind did order a black slave to kill Hamza, she did it cos her own family had got killed. Like i say, the stuff about the liver is not credible. For one thing, when all was lost, she converted to Islam and her son founded the Ummayd dynasty in Damascus. What better way to trash the wine loving Caliph than to call his mother a crazed savage?

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 18, 2008 at 3:48 pm

  50. These smiting verses confuse me. Apparently they are used to justify beheadings, but, if you ….
    “smite their necks until you overpower them, then hold them in bondage…”
    you certainly are not beheading them, so wtf?

    It strikes me (sorry) as important that this was before firearms. With that in mind, and I’m not aware of armies cutting off their enemies fingers…

    the hand is a primary target in swordsmanship, cuz if you hit the ‘fingers’ holding the weapon, high five! So advice to do that is good. Betcha the translators of the koran weren’t swordsmen, and when you hear civilians discuss it, well, let’s just say inaccuracies arise.

    Then, if not beheading, what? A lot of targets present on the neck, if you want to coldcock your opponent, so you can then restrain them….just sayin’. I sound like an apologist for Mo & the Pirates. Jeez.

    watercat

    August 18, 2008 at 4:39 pm

  51. BRG,

    Doesn’t this correspond exactly to the images we have watched of hostages in Irak being bonded and decapitated?

    Yes. Yes it does.

    Ooh, watercat, I didn’t even think of the fingers / swords thing! Fanfuckingtastic! If you want to make sure your enemy never fights you again, that’s the way to do it. Still nasty, though!

    As for the beheading thing — there’s another verse that says not to take captives until you’ve already crushed the enemy:

    67. No apostle should take captives until he has battled and subdued the country.

    What does that mean? Kill as many as you can before you take captives?

    kafirgirl

    August 18, 2008 at 4:51 pm

  52. The whole “the Qu’ran must be read in Arabic” is done for the same reasons as “the Bible must be in Latin”. Simply put if people can’t understand and read something themselves, you prevent them from finding out that its likely a bunch of bullshit.

    The Catholic Church tried to stop Jewish translations of the Torah getting into Christian hands, since they contained the corrected virgin/almah translation.

    Quentin George

    August 18, 2008 at 5:03 pm

  53. Fuck Fuck Fuck. This bullshit makes more sense if you read what it has caused over the centuries.
    slave trade – check.
    beheading – check.
    pillaging and plundering infidels – check.
    subjugating women – check.

    mutherfuckers. no where does it say not to take over someone else’s money or wife or slaves. horseshit. And Mo gets a 20% cut for preaching this crowshit? fuck.

    @KG – AWESOME “God’s preferred method of payment is to get his dick sucked by Muslims 5 times a day. “

    Shashi

    August 18, 2008 at 5:11 pm

  54. What does that mean? Kill as many as you can before you take captives?

    Isnt that what muslim invaders did for the last 15 centuries? bastards.

    Shashi

    August 18, 2008 at 5:12 pm

  55. Shashi,

    mutherfuckers. no where does it say not to take over someone else’s money or wife or slaves. horseshit. And Mo gets a 20% cut for preaching this crowshit? fuck.

    It does say some good stuff like “don’t steal” but then it follows it up with “or else we’ll cut your hand off.” Shit like that. The good stuff gets buried in there, big time, because there honestly doesn’t seem to be much of it.

    kafirgirl

    August 18, 2008 at 5:15 pm

  56. I was thinking more of hitting the hand and your opponent drops his weapon—-instant slave.

    The Arabs fought with scimitars, famous for holding a razor edge, no good for chopping. They wore dresses, and no armor, so the neck would not be the easiest target. Mo’s advice may be to avoid more accessible ones in keeping with his stress on taking slaves. IOW, try not to gut them or fuck them up too bad, so we can get some loot out of the deal later.

    Doesn’t v67 and adjoining seem like a ‘support the troops’ meme that the ones who actually fought are entitled to more respect, loot, wimmen,?

    watercat

    August 18, 2008 at 5:19 pm

  57. Crowshit? LOL! That’s a new one. :-)

    Man, you think this all bloodthirstiness is hard to understand, try making cute fuzzy Lolcats out of it.

    watercat

    August 18, 2008 at 5:32 pm

  58. watercat. I washed my car yesterday.. last week I had parked it under a tree for shade..

    Shashi

    August 18, 2008 at 5:43 pm

  59. One of my friends is Muslim, but she never really talks about it. I wonder if she’s read the Quran in English. Same thing as reading the Bible: it makes atheism look [i]really[/i] good.

    texasnonbeliever

    August 18, 2008 at 7:36 pm

  60. The really painful irony here is that this book can say ‘God wants you to kill or subjugate 80% of the people on the planet’ (and no amount of apologist semantic gymnastics is going to convince me that ‘wipe the unbelievers out to the last’ is simply a metaphor for polite conversation) but any attempt to criticise the book is considered ‘offensive’. Your book can say God wants to exterminate me and my family, but there will be riots on the streets if I even draw a picture of the book’s author?
    What is even more strange is that the book is often immunised from criticism by those it recommends for hellfire, all in the interests of multiculturalism. What exactly is multicultural about “throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve, then smite their necks” ?

    Lance

    August 18, 2008 at 7:38 pm

  61. KG: I’m behind (slow down, will ya?), but I don’t think anyone has mentioned this. You said:

    “So if you think someone is going to break a treaty, you should beat them to the punch by breaking it first. God doesn’t like treachery….unless it’s the Muslims doing it?”

    Isn’t this exactly what Muhammad did to the Banu Qaynuqa Jews in Medina? If memory serves, Muhammad one day announced that he feared the Banu Qaynuqa were going to break their treaty with the Muslims, so he went to them (center of town/market place — he was obviously very afraid of them) and began preaching. He issued the call of Islam* to them and they mocked him and refused him and he left (probably mad as hell), gathered up his punk buddies, and attacked. After Muhammad defeated the Banu Qaynuqa, he wanted to behead (I wonder where he got that idea?) all of the men/boys, but a Muslim intervened saying the Banu Qaynuqa were his friends and protectors of his trading business and begged Muhammad not to kill them. Muhammad eventually relented and exiled them, keeping most of their possessions as booty. Allah then graced Muhammad/Muslims with 5:51 — Muslims may not take People of the Book as friends or protectors**. Allah is wise and merciful (sarcasm intended). Because of Allah’s wisdom, Muhammad was able to behead all the men/boys of the Banu Qurayza Jews when he attacked them. All of the women/girls (and really young boys) were enslaved and their possessions went to the Muslims. (The heads and bodies of the men and older boys went into a ditch.)

    * I forget the exact number (I think it was 3), but Osama bin Laden issued the call to Islam to the United States before attacking. Muhammad would do this before attacking infidels, so someone in our government should’ve really picked up on this. Muhammad is the role model.

    ** An Ahmadi once told me that 5:51 only applied during a time of war, but the context clearly shows it means during a time of peace. That way, during war, you get to behead the infidels without friendship getting in the way. Besides, isn’t Islam always at war with the infidels?

    *** Damn, I type too much!

    Michael

    August 18, 2008 at 8:31 pm

  62. Michael, you’re totally right.

    Muhammad divided the property of the Banu Qaynuqa, including their arms and tools, among his followers, taking for himself a fifth share of the spoils for the first time.

    So this is what all that booty-sharing & treaty-breaking shit came from.

    Wikipedia link in case anyone’s interested:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qaynuqa

    kafirgirl

    August 18, 2008 at 9:00 pm

  63. 43 watercat

    Here’s something a little less depressing I hope

    http://lolkoran.blogspot.com/2008/08/genesis.html

    I’m in yur html, making trubbel. Sry. doan meen tu.

    I don’t know what’s going on, but A minnit before I posted 43, I posted exactly the same thing (without the “i hope”)but WordPress wouldn’t accept it. I don’t know where it went, but it seems to have gone into your sourcecode.

    The Lolkoran site, me, and my email address are in there,in some kind of textbox right above the blogroll. Maybe you should delete that? Also, and maybe not related, the T-shirt image isn’t showing up, for me at least.

    watercat

    August 18, 2008 at 10:21 pm

  64. I like how you pulled thug life out of nowhere!
    I prefer to use ‘WEST-SIDE!’ even though i’m from the east coast, because it’s really all about intimidating white people [just kidding!]

    no, really – i love everyone. but not like Mo. but then again, he’s got invisible homies and shit, so fuck me, then. he can do all kinds of shit so he can afford to favour others.

    Priest

    August 18, 2008 at 11:34 pm

  65. Hey, yea Bible is pretty fucked up, but it gets some brownie points for asking a person to show the other cheek when attacked and for love thy neighbor and such quotations.
    These were actually the existing wisdom of the people which Christ was clever enough to incorporate.

    And GAD, I was talking about the Bible having some sparks of wise things, Quran somehow fails that minimum and is totally uninspiring.

    Undoubtedly, Bible and Quran agree on most of these fucked up parts too, and are equally pathetic. Yet, I do find somethings alright in the Bible which I do not find so much in the Quran.

    Another Kafir

    August 19, 2008 at 1:12 am

  66. KG: Regarding chronological order …

    I haven’t compared these to WikiIslam, but this is an ordering (and there is some debate as to the ordering) that I found over a year ago. Maybe it’ll be useful. Maybe not. I’m not vouching for it, just providing another data point.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08692a.htm

    Michael

    August 19, 2008 at 8:04 am

  67. The SAQ also has it here.

    Ironically, this would make the last words of the Koran:

    “Lo! He is ever ready to show mercy.”

    Yeah. Sure….

    Quentin George

    August 19, 2008 at 8:10 am

  68. Michael, thanks for the link, but one of the first things I read is:

    The most creditable portions are those in which Jewish and Christian influences are clearly discernible.

    Edit: my bad, I read creditable as credible. And it made me throw up all over myself.

    And then there’s the “Jesus Christ loves you” ad right next to it. I have a hard time taking it seriously.

    I’ll compare it to WikiIslam when I have a little time.

    QG, thank you! I didn’t realize SAQ had it too. And Lo! That’s some seriously fucking irony there.

    kafirgirl

    August 19, 2008 at 8:11 am

  69. Hello,

    This relates to a previous post (the one about Mo marrying his adopted son’s wife), but found it disturbing enough to mention it out of this post’s context: http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1309

    In these cases, should we post comments in the relevant posts, or the latest ones, Kafirgirl?

    Brg.

    brg

    August 19, 2008 at 8:29 am

  70. BRG, latest post is fine. I read & comment on older posts, but I know a lot of other people don’t.

    And OTFG, what the fucking fuck at that link? OK, see, that hadith right there would have made a non-believer out of me. There is nothing in the fucking world that would make me pop a titty out to breast feed my male coworkers.

    kafirgirl

    August 19, 2008 at 8:37 am

  71. KG:

    Please don’t spew! I was just providing another datapoint. Also, I was using Firefox with AdBlock and never saw the ad you mentioned. If I get ambitious, I’ll compare with WikiIslam, too. I know there is some debate over the revelation order and we may never know it for certain, which is another reason (to me) to see different sources/etc for how the ordering was obtained (the rationale, if you will, behind it).

    Michael

    August 19, 2008 at 9:24 am

  72. KG said: “How does the modern Muslim react to slavery and concubines? They don’t. And I’m speaking for the Muslims I know — mostly moderate, some liberal — since we have discussed it at great length. They don’t know it’s in there, and they refuse to believe that it is. And they very conveniently “don’t have access to” a Quran-in-English to check. Denial, denial, denial!”

    I’ve experienced that exact denial/etc. The kicker is Muslims get mad at *me* when I show them where in the Quran/Hadith slavery is condoned and practiced by Muhammad — and I didn’t even write the Quran/Hadith! Total denial. “Islam ended slavery!” (Exact quote.)

    Michael

    August 19, 2008 at 9:57 am

  73. It was early, I hadn’t had my coffee. I read creditable as credible, and my eyes rolled so far in the back of my head that I saw my own brain. Gahaha! Seriously, I’ll check it out anyway. I’m curious to see how it compares with WikiIslam, because well, I don’t quite know how WikiIslam came up with a chronological order at all. To play devil’s advocate, if we could figure out a chronological order, how come Uthman’s people couldn’t when they were compiling the Quran?

    Also, Firefox with AdBlock? The fuck?? Why do I not know about this?

    kafirgirl

    August 19, 2008 at 9:57 am

  74. Michael, I don’t know if you’re an atheist or a theist, but in my experience, a lot of Muslims get pissed when people from another religion point out the flaws in Islam. Like if a Christian does it, it’s just because they want to convert them to Christianity. Which, I guess makes sense, because in a lot of cases, that’s exactly what’s going on.

    I imagine Christians react the same way to Muslims pointing out the flaws in Christianity.

    And, of course, nobody listens to the atheists because we’re just a bunch of baby-eating haters.

    kafirgirl

    August 19, 2008 at 10:03 am

  75. KG: I’m more agnostic than anything. I don’t know if God exists (I can’t prove or disprove God), but I certainly don’t believe (emphasis on believe) what is in the Quran is holy. (The same could be argued about other scriptures, too.) Let’s face it, if Allah is really God, we are fucked. That would mean he *wants* us to abuse women and kill, kill, kill, etc. And if he is real and is that Sadistic, nothing we can do in this lifetime will ever reward us with Paradise (except maybe abusing women and killing, killing, killing, etc.).

    I definitely try to distinguish between the scriptures (of any faith) and the followers. Many Muslims only see what they want to see in the Quran and are good people. Same for other faiths. I certainly don’t think that putting Islam (or any other faith) off-limits for critique is helpful, though. Even if those doing the critiquing are not part of that faith. Sometimes when you are too close to a problem it is hard to see it, but others have a better perspective.

    Pork is haram, but babies are halal? :-)

    Michael

    August 19, 2008 at 10:29 am

  76. Sometimes when you are too close to a problem it is hard to see it, but others have a better perspective.

    Absolutely! Even after I had decided that I was an agnostic all those years ago, I had a really hard time walking away from Islam. I made excuses for the religion (ie, it’s not Islam itself, the Arabs just mixed their culture into the religion to the point where you can’t tell which is which, the religion itself is not so bad, etc).

    I certainly don’t think that putting Islam (or any other faith) off-limits for critique is helpful, though

    Agreed. No religion should be off-limits. We should be able to discuss it all, draw all the fucking cartoons we want. We shouldn’t need to hide behind nicknames.

    kafirgirl

    August 19, 2008 at 10:41 am

  77. see, most modern muslims will see all of this, like plunder and slavery as ‘beyond them,’ and of no relevance. They think this cos they give esteem to the Holy Qu’ran and see a lot of the stuff in it as if it’s in another dimension. If challenged, they will have many responses however, cos left alone, no, they will not see any inconistency in all the stuff about plunder and pillage and a merciful god. Muslims think in slogans and when before every meal, or doing something petty like setting of on a little car trip u’ve said, “bism il allah arahman araheem’, ‘in the name of Allah- the benficent- the Merciful,’ and dutifully wrote it on the top page of ure school book a zillion times, u just think that no matter what…. Allah is merciful. Huh, Christians also split the intelligence (War is Peace etc), cos they are telling God=Love in one breath and then he will trash u in hell fire the next. So?
    See, religious personages, including Muslims just don’t connect, they are thinking in a totally different way. I think it’s something we learn very early, dad kicks u or punches you and in the next moment says, “It’s only cos i care.”
    Now if challened as to this inconsistency in all the violence and the stuff about “peace,” Muslims have lots of responses as they try to handle a way of thinking that means nothing to them. Here’s some-
    1) Al Anfal was war and war sucks. So?
    2) You need rules for war and god and Mo was just being practical and these rules are ok anyhow, it’s just taking care of stuff.
    3) What’s it got to do with us? This is Allah’s word, so back off.
    4) Popes of Rome did much worse, like the Borgia Popes, us Muslims are smart, cos we got laws to put limits on man’s bad nature. War’s everywhere, look how wise we are to have thought in depth about it!
    5) Ure comparing Jesus with Mo- that’s stupid, the two was given different missions and Mo was a husband, statesman, military genuis also, so don’t freak out if u see sensible and earthly stuff in the Qu’ran.
    6) Look at all the oppressions us Muslims suffered for centuries, u think the kufr empires ever showed us any mercy?
    7) All of the stuff concerning Muslim warfare is defensive as there’s co compulsion in religion- says so in Qu’ran.

    But what i want to stress is this….. if u ask muslims how violence in the Qu’ran can be reconciled with faith and peace then maybe 99.999% will just be incredulous and say, “Violence? Peace? One is conditional on the other and u can’t compare and anyhow, we dunno so it’s a stupid question. U got belief or no? We’re Muslims and we believe, that’s all, we don’t know nothing else.”
    And the other 0.001%? Their reaction?
    “Slaughter the enemies of Allah cos this is war and it’s Jihad to pay these dogs back in the same coin and Allah showed us how to deal with them.”

    One more, there is a small group of decency persons (me mum’s sect), they reject Jihad on the whole and their saying is, “Love everyone-hurt no one.” This is the Ahmadis, who are suffering and viewed as persons who can be robbed, murdered, thrown into jail and all their property seized also.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 19, 2008 at 10:48 am

  78. Jasmine:

    The Ahmadis may be peaceful (love for all, hatred for none) and and I know they are persecuted by other Muslims, but they also like to practice taqiyya/da’wa (at least that’s been my personal experience) regarding the history of Islam and life of Muhammad. Things like Muhammad never attacked anyone (they only defended themselves), Islam ended slavery, 5:51 applying only during a time of conflict, the Quran is true because it is scientifically accurate, etc. These are false statements that they tell non-Muslims and I don’t know if it is because that is what they truly want to believe or just cannot believe anything different (brainwashing?). It is my belief (I can’t prove it) that being disingenuous about Islam (or anything else, really) only leads to more distrust.

    Michael

    August 19, 2008 at 11:34 am

  79. @brg.. what the fuck. I mean this is sooooooo fucked up.. I cant even believe such shit exists and to issue a hadith for the same like a 1500 yrs later makes it even more unbeleiveable.
    coming to think of it, there was a case that happened in North India (Uttar Pradesh if i remember correctly). An asshole had raped his daughter in law and the muslim sharia court ordered the son to divorce his wife so that his dad (the fucker) could take her as his wife. there was a public outcry about that and the sharia had to be withdrawn.

    @KG Firefox with AdBlock Plus FTW!! Never saw an ad again.. ;-)

    Shashi

    August 19, 2008 at 11:48 am

  80. Thank you.

    watercat

    August 19, 2008 at 12:16 pm

  81. Psst, watercat, did I resolve those HTML issues??

    kafirgirl

    August 19, 2008 at 12:29 pm

  82. Pssst, kafirgirl, (yeah, that’s what the thanks was for).

    watercat

    August 19, 2008 at 12:52 pm

  83. Thought so. Just wanted to make sure.

    Psssst. Psst pssssssst. Pst.

    kafirgirl

    August 19, 2008 at 12:54 pm

  84. 13. That, because they had made a breach with God and with His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God and with His Messenger, surely God is terrible in retribution.
    14. That for you; therefore taste it; and that the chastisement of the Fire is for the unbelievers.

    I think this is saying, “Look at what I did to people who breached with me; take it as a warning and don’t you make a breach (of contract, I suppose) either.”

    That’s how I read it anyways.

    Alice

    August 19, 2008 at 2:58 pm

  85. “Popes of Rome did much worse, like the Borgia Popes”

    I know it’s not your argument, but I thought I’d comment anyway:

    The Borgia Popes, Calixtus III and Alexander VI, didn’t kill anyone, and most of the delightful orgies are actually ficticious (unfortunately!). Nepotistic, corrupt? Sure? Murderous? Not really.

    Callixtus III did, however, excommunicate Halley’s Comet (!), which tickles me pink for some reason.

    Sergius III, on the other hand, was a total prick. He was also involved in the infamous “Cadavar Synod”, where they dug up the rotting corpse of Pope Formosus and put it on trial.

    Quentin George

    August 20, 2008 at 7:08 am

  86. Quentin, thanks for realizing it’s not actually my argument, cos i find relativism illogical anyhow, even though Muslims dont.
    I think the popes, most of them, was just like Mo- in it for as much as they could get; riches, plunder, women- u name it. Was it Julius or Leo who led troops into battle in armor in 16th centruty Italy? Can’t remember, anyhow, it sticks out as something he shouldn’t have done…but for a Caliph, i think it’s much less of a problem i mean, there doesn’t seem to be that stigma attached to it that a pope had if he did stuff like that. And Sura Al Anfal and Mo’s precedent is part of the answer to that, but also is the seperation of church and state, cos only after that… does Jesus seem to mellow out. Funny how Allah in California is similarly chilled.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 20, 2008 at 9:44 am

  87. AnotherKafir: the bible should [at least the new testament] get brownie points on the ‘turn the other cheek’ doctrine, but on most issues the christians of mainstream america prefer the ‘eye for an eye’ approach of leviticus. sure, at least it’s in there, but so is the contradiction and the hypocrisy.

    Priest

    August 20, 2008 at 1:23 pm

  88. Julius II led troops into battle. He requested that when they built his statue the traditional “bible in the arm” be replaced with a sword. Although in truth, the wars he fought were more in defence: at the stage of him becoming Pope, France and Venice controlled large portions of the Papal state.

    Ironically, Julius also hired Michelangelo to paint the Sistine chapel. Protestants also claimed Julius was homosexual but there’s no evidence of this, and he infact fathered several children before becoming Pope.

    Quentin George

    August 20, 2008 at 5:18 pm

  89. Just ’cause you have kids, doesn’t mean you’re not a homosexual. I’m just sayin…..

    Dorathea

    August 20, 2008 at 8:21 pm

  90. Was just reading the discussion on chapter 4; I’m suprised no one has menitiond 8:29 …He will give you a standard of right and wrong…

    I’ve heard that before, somewhere; I’m sure of it.

    watercat

    August 20, 2008 at 9:59 pm

  91. I didn’t read through all 89 comments that came before this one, so forgive me if I am repeating something that was already addressed previously, but it seems to me, in this section,

    12. When thy Lord was revealing to the angels, ‘I am with you; so confirm the believers. I shall cast into the unbelievers’ hearts terror; so smite above the necks, and smite every finger of them!
    13. That, because they had made a breach with God and with His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God and with His Messenger, surely God is terrible in retribution.
    14. That for you; therefore taste it; and that the chastisement of the Fire is for the unbelievers.

    it’s sort of setting out a warning for the possible future apostate. It’s almost like it’s saying, when you are fighting these unbelievers keep in mind that if you turn away from Allah and Mohammed and become an unbeliever, this will be your fate. It sounds like a warning against apostasy, of course, this is my impression of a few verses so the context might put a lie to that statement, but from just that section, that is the impression I get.

    Archaneus

    August 20, 2008 at 11:50 pm

  92. This stuff about a ‘breach with god,’ it’s the strongest form of mind control religious persons use. See, for me, loyalty is really important, that’s how i was brought up- overall aim- to be loyal to me family and any future husband. To set this is concrete- i first got to be super loyal to a invisible Allah, and all loyalties are interconnected. Why do u think i am called bad names, no one wants to marry me as such and i am packed off abroad thousands of miles from me family? Once u break with god, u done more, u just trashed a whole network of loyalties cos everyone knows now that they only way to sort me out is with force and that the old tricks of scaring me and stuff with god, or shaming me with god’s morality- won’t work no more. This is why i keep stressing over and over, “I am apostate, but i’m loyal to Pakistanis in all ways.” It’s the social consequences of the breach with god, that make it real. I have to lie all the time, it’s reverese taqiyya if u like, being forced to be a cultural muslim.

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 21, 2008 at 2:33 am

  93. Archaneus,

    Don’t forget that Muhammad said: Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.

    Source:

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html#009.084.057

    Michael

    August 21, 2008 at 8:27 am

  94. or her

    jasminefrompakistan

    August 21, 2008 at 10:09 am


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