KafirGirl

We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

7: The Wall Between Heaven and Hell (Part III — It’s not magic. It’s an illusion!)

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The Ten Commandments.  Religious laws given from God to the Jews?  Sure.  Best movie ever? Definitely! I can honestly say I’ve seen it about, oh, 924,839 times, give or take, and it never gets old.  Then again, I feel the same about Planet of the Apes and Omega Man, so it could just be a Charlton Heston thing.

30 seconds into the post and already I digress.

The story of Moses and Pharaoh is one of the most famous biblical stories around, so it’s no shock that I ran across it in the Quran.  It’s also one of the longest continuous stories in the damn book.  I’m splitting it in two so your eyeballs don’t turn into raisins.  (You’re welcome.)  Brace yourselves, babies:  this will be a long one.

God starts us off with his usual bullshit about how everyone (except Mohammed and the converts) can suck on balls:

100. Do not the people who inherited the earth from the (earlier) inhabitants perceive that We could afflict them too for their sins if We pleased, and put seals on their hearts that they may not hear (the voice of truth)?
101. These were the (earlier) habitations whose accounts We have given to you. Their apostles came with clear proofs, but they did not believe what they once denied. That is how God seals the hearts of those who do not believe.
102. We did not find many of them faithful to their promises, and found many of them disobedient.

OK, so God puts a seal on the hearts of those who didn’t believe in his previous prophets.  Seems pretty fucking counter productive to me, but I’m not the one steering this boat.  These people he’s talking about — they didn’t just ignore God’s prophets.  They were also disobedient and made promises to God that they broke.  Golly, could it be the Jews? God doesn’t really say.  Instead, he jumps right in to the Moses story without giving any kind of background or anything.  Good thing I’ve seen the movie or I’d be totally fucked.

103. So We sent Moses with miracles after (these apostles) to the Pharaoh and his nobles, but they behaved with them high-handedly. See then the end of the authors of evil.
104. Moses said: “O Pharaoh, I have been sent by the Lord of all the worlds;
105. “I am duty bound to speak nothing of God but the truth I have brought from your Lord a clear sign; so let the people of Israel depart with me.”
106. He said: “If you have brought a sign then display it, if what you say is true.”

And with that, the royal tape measure was fetched.  Moses and Pharaoh dropped their panties, lifted up their skirts, and got ready to settle things once and for all.  OK, not really.  But wouldn’t it have been so much easier?

God sends Moses to Pharaoh to talk him into letting his people go.  He could have probably saved everyone a buttload of trouble by cutting out the middle man, snapping his fingers and freeing the people himself.  *Poof*  problem solved.  But no, that’s not God’s style.  His routine usually involves being as big a pain in the ass as possible and making things way more complicated than necessary.  It’s how he rolls.  So God sends Moses to do a little song and dance in front of Pharaoh:

107. At this Moses threw down his staff, and lo, it became a live serpent.
108. And he drew forth his hand, and behold, it looked white to those who beheld it.

Moses’ miracle is to turn his walking stick into a snake.  Ooh ahh!  And then, if that’s not amazing enough, he waves his hand around…and it turns white!  Pretty fucking cool, right?  But if that’s all it takes to  be a prophet, then shit, there are a whole lot of wand wavers in Las Vegas that are prophetier than old Moses.  And I’m not the only one who thinks so.  Pharaoh and his people think Whitehand McSnakestick is a “clever magician” and they bring in their own reserve magicians to one up his ass.

113. The magicians came to the Pharaoh and said: “Is there reward for us if we succeed?”
114. “Yes,” said he, “you will be among the honoured.”

The fuck?  Honor schmonor, dude, I wouldn’t do it for anything less than a cash prize.  Lump sum, bitches.  And I’d want it in writing first, because Pharaoh sounds like the kind of cheapass who’d try to gyp you out of your winnings.

115. So they said: “O Moses, you may cast your spell first, or we shall cast ours.”
116. “You cast it first,” answered Moses. When they cast their spell, they bewitched the eyes of the people and petrified them by conjuring up a great charm.

OK, first off, these magicians are fucking morons.  They’re there to show the guy up.  They should make him go first and then swoop in for the kill.  Strategy, magicians, strategy. Moses knows what I’m talking about.

And on top of that, a “great charm?” What kind of great charm?  I mean, if it’s so fucking great, why doesn’t God bother describing it?  It was supposedly so great that it scared the shit out of people, so why not divulge the details?  Whet our appetites?  Wouldn’t it just make Moses look even more badass in comparison?  Or maybe not:

117. We said to Moses: “Throw down your staff;” and it swallowed up their conjurations in no time.

Dude, weak.  Moses can’t even pull out a brand new trick to shock and awe people.  He just does the same shit all over again.  He throws down his staff.  Only this time it eats the magicians’ mysterious great charm.  Now if I were the magicians, I would have checked that fucker’s staff.  Clearly that’s where his “power” is coming from.  But just you wait.  The magicians have some unbelievable tricks up their sleeves and Moses totally doesn’t see ‘em coming:

120. The sorcerers fell to the ground in homage,
121. And said: “We have come to believe in the Lord of all the worlds,
122. “The Lord of Moses and Aaron.”

Nah, I’m just fucking with you.  The magicians totally puss out, roll over and let Moses win.  And all it took was one lousy magic trick.  Oh, wait, I’m sorry.  All it took was one…illusion. Arrested Development, anyone?  Anyone??

It never ceases to amaze me what a shitty storyteller God is.  There are plenty of Muslims out there who push this book as The Greatest Thing Ever™.  Um, have they actually fucking read the fucking thing?  Loose threads all over the damn place, inconsistencies, simple math errors, scientific “miracles” that a fifth grader could debunk.  And if you say anything about it, they get all huffy.  “Oh, you think you can do better?”  Or even better, “Are you saying Shakespeare is better than the Holy Quran?”

And, fuck it, you know what?  I’m saying it:  Shakespeare is better than the Quran.  I get more out of reading Shakespeare than I get out of the Quran.  Shit, I get more out of reading a Garfield comic strip than I get out of the fucking Quran.  But I digress, again.

There’s no tension, there’s no drama.  The angels are too pussy to tell God that he needs to work on the fucking plot line.  Or maybe the magicians were so pissed about not getting a cash prize that they threw the match.  Either way, Pharaoh isn’t going to let them off the hook that easily:

123. But Pharaoh said: “You have come to accept belief in Him without my permission! This surely is a plot you have hatched to expel the people from the land. You will soon come to know.
124. “I will have your hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, and have you all crucified.”

Hands and feet on alternate sides cut off? Isn’t that the same punishment Mohammed prescribes for the bad guys who fight in a war against God?  I checked: it is.  Funny that Pharaoh — the bad guy — should threaten the suddenly God-fearing magicians with that same punishment.  And I don’t mean funny like haha, I mean funny like Mohammed is one twisted son of a bitch.  He throws in a crucificion on top of everything else, which, according the the Skeptics Annotated Quran didn’t even exist in ancient Egypt.

Dear God,

Hire a fucking fact checker.

Thanks,
Kafir Girl.

P.S. You suck.

125. They answered: “We have (in any case) to go back to our Lord.
126. “The only reason you have to hate us is that we believed in the signs of our Lord as they came to us. O our Lord, give us sufficient endurance that we may die submitting (to You).”

Double you.  Tee.  Eff.  Overkill much?  It was ridiculous enough when they had a change of heart five minutes into the magic competition.  Now they’re going “back” to their lord?  And they would die for him?  Just like that??  I consulted the Skeptics Annotated Quran, and it turns out there’s a wee little problem.  Check out what chapter 10 says about the same story:

10:83. But none of them put faith in Moses except some youths among his people who were nonetheless afraid lest the Pharaoh and his nobles should persecute them; for the Pharaoh was mighty in the land, and guilty of excesses.

Oh mah gah!  A contradiction?  In the Quran?  Blasphemy! Cut off her hand and foot on alternate sides!  So in this version, most of the people thought Moses was a crackhead.  Some of the young’uns thought he might be telling the truth, but they were too scared of the big, bad Pharaoh to do anything about it.  See, that seems a little more believable to me.  Mohammed should have probably just stuck with that one.  Anyway, on with chapter 7:

127. And the leaders of Pharaoh’s people said to him: “Would you allow Moses and his people to create disorder in the land and discard you and your gods?” He replied: “We shall now slay their sons and spare their women, and subdue them.”

Pharaoh’s friends call him a pussy, so he does what anyone would do in the same situation:  he tells his people to go kill all of the Jews’ boys.  That’ll learn em!  And what does Moses do?  He tells the Jews to pray.  Have faith. God will fix everything.  Yeah.  Some things never change.

…like the Jews and their constant whining:

129. They said: “We were oppressed before you came, and have been since you have come to us.”

Wah fucking wah, Moses, you haven’t made it all better. Whining aside, I would have probably blamed Moses, too.  I mean, things were bad enough already; then Moses shows up and things get worse.  And his only solution to the whole thing?  Pray. I would have prayed, alright.  I would have prayed for Moses’ magic staff to be magically shoved up his magic ass.

He answered: “It may well be that soon God may destroy your enemy and make you inherit the land, and then see how you behave.”

Little foreshadowing there.  Not to totally give away the ending, but the Jews turn out to be asshole.  It’s the Quran.  What were you expecting?  Anyway, God splooges his fury all over the Pharaoh’s face:

130. We afflicted the people of Pharaoh with famine and dearth of everything that they might take heed.
131. Yet when good came their way they said: “It is our due;” but when misfortune befell them they put the omen down to Moses and those who were with him. But surely the omen was with God, yet most of them did not understand.

132. They said: “Whatsoever the sign you have brought to deceive us, we shall not believe in you.”

Most of them did not understand. And why didn’t they understand?  Whhhhy??  Because God sealed their hearts, that’s why!  God doesn’t want them to believe, and then he shits and moans because, holy fuck, they just don’t get it. I have a suggestion for God:  if you want a fucking date to prom, stop playing hard-to-get.

133. So We let loose on them floods and locusts, and vermin, frogs and blood — how many different signs. But they still remained arrogant, for they were a people full of sin.
134. Yet when punishment overtook them, they said: “O Moses, invoke your Lord for us as you have been enjoined. If the torment is removed, we shall certainly believe in you and let the people of Israel go with you.”
135. But no sooner was the punishment withdrawn for a time to enable them to make good their promise than they broke it.

Floods, locusts, vermin, frogs and blood?  Meh.  Can’t you find all that shit in the region anyway?  If God had really wanted to scare the bajeezes out of these people, he would have used his imagination a little more.  If I was an asshole God, know what I would have sent?  A plague of polar bears.  Yup.  Polar bears falling out of the sky all over in Egypt.  And they’d all be holding Qurans.  How fucking crazy would that be?  I told that to my friend, Rob, and he topped it:  “I would send a plague of explosive diarrhea.”  I hang out with some serious jerks.

136. So We took vengeance on them, and drowned them in the sea for rejecting Our signs and not heeding them.

Pharaoh’s people didn’t buy in to God’s signs.  Probably had a little something to do with the fact that God put a seal on their hearts to prevent them from believing.  And then God got all pissed and drowned everyone.  Yeah, that seems totally fair.

137. We then made the people who were weak (and oppressed) successors of the land to the East and the West which We had blessed. Thus the fair promise of your Lord to the children of Israel was fulfilled, for they were patient in adversity; and whatsoever the Pharaoh and his people had fashioned, and the structures they had raised, were destroyed.

Patient in adversity?  I thought the Jews were whining and bitching the whole fucking time.  Also, it’s really fucking convenient that all the buildings that Pharaoh and his people built were destroyed.  Why it almost as if they never existed!  Head?  Meet desk.  Repeat a thousand times.

Coming up next:  Moses meets God on a mountain!  Yay!  More drama with the Jews.  Booooo!  Hissss!  Stay tuned!

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Written by kafirgirl

August 8, 2008 at 5:26 pm

Posted in Quran

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76 Responses

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  1. Meh, I’d stick with the polar bears. They weigh a half-ton each, they have no sense of fear (because they have no natural enemies), and after swimming all the way from Greenland they’re going to be PRETTY FUCKING HUNGRY. One paw up, and WHAM! off goes an Egyptian’s head, eat the cadaver.

    xyz

    August 8, 2008 at 7:09 pm

  2. Hmmm… How come that we do not get anything knew from Mo (or from most prophets elsewhere)? I mean to say that it is the same self story found in the Torah. If I had a direct line to god, I would ask not for the well known story, but for additional information that no one, but god, could know. Mo didn’t even seem to have the imagination to expand and/or embellish the tale.

    Furthermore, and this goes for the Bible too. Why didn’t someone, at some time during the past 2000+ / 1300+ years, go to the trouble of fixing all the contradictions in these books? Gee, I am sure that if they had given the job to Kafirgirl she would make a book so coherent that even I would feel inclined to convert to Islam (it would also help that I have seen in some Muslim dating services that most muslim girls there are quite good looking; barring those wearing hijabs) ;-)

    Brg.

    brg

    August 8, 2008 at 8:10 pm

  3. The crucifixion in Egypt error becomes doubly stupid when you realise in ancient Egypt wood was so rare and expensive that most boats were made of reeds, and only really the Pharaoh’s and priests could afford word.

    So I very much doubt it would be used to kill criminals….

    And both the Biblical and Koranic versions include the silliness of Pharaoh’s magicians duplicating Moses’ tricks…what, you think humans can’t replicate the powers of God? Think again…he’s not that special…

    Quentin George

    August 8, 2008 at 8:56 pm

  4. Ahh, the Moses story. So pretty, what with the plagues and the death and the dick-waving. But you know what’s the best part? This is one story from the Bible that literally can’t be true. Even slightly. For the simple fact that — drum roll please — the Jews almost certainly never came out of Egypt. Evidence of Jewish populations in the most literate society of the ancient world? None. Archaeological evidence that “might” be Jews? None. Historical accuracy of the depictions of Egypt at, well, any time? Zip. Well, I lie. They do get it right that the head guy was called Pharoah. That’s about all they get right, though. Even basic details are wrong — the Egyptians never used huge armies of slaves, certainly not to work on major construction projects, which was mostly handled by — OMG — professionals who got payed very well for what they did.

    Is it any wonder that the Quran can’t get the details right or consistent? Even the source material it was pulling from can’t!

    Gregory

    August 8, 2008 at 11:09 pm

  5. xyz, polar bears it is! If I was an asshole god, I would have unleashed the power of the bear all over Egypt. And it probably would have done no good either way — catching flies with vinegar and all.

    Brg, yep, they all basically regurgitated the same story over and over and over again. Even the stories that seem original at first glance are just rip offs. The virgin birth, the resurrection — it’s all just a rehash of existing mythology. *Insert farting noise here* That’s religion.

    QG, exactly! And it even says they “conjure” up a great spell. To bring into existence. Um, kind of like what God does? And really fucking fantastic catch on the whole crucifixion / wood thing. Who’d have thunk? Not God apparently. That one slipped right the fuck by him.

    Gregory, there were tons of records of Jews in ancient Egypt. Libraries full of ‘em. Obviously Iblis went back to Egypt and stole those records to test our faith.

    kafirgirl

    August 9, 2008 at 1:16 am

  6. Actually everywhere I see the same pattern, God asks you to believe, sends some stupid signs and makes some magic and all and if you do not believe, you die, you DIE!! BURN IN HELL!!

    Apart from the specific stories, all the religions are built around this premise that if you do not “believe” in the particular god in question, you burn in hell. Hence the pascals wager.

    Whats absurd to me is that its not possible to want to believe something and believe it, it is not possible to “believe” something under pressure. Belief is something natural, in the given circumstances you may believe or not, its not your fault if you do not believe in invisible jinns and angels and satan who flies up your ass when you take a dump, etc.

    And to make it worse, people are punished for the natural disbelief, burning in hell, regrowing skins so that it burns again, all sorts of gory punishment and torture. Its just absurd and cruel this whole concept of religious hell. I think if God did exist, he would be a complete jerk and if you do not stroke his dick for him, he would fucking kill you. That for me is the antithesis of the idea God, I would voluntarily reject this God if I came around to believing it.

    Fucking Bastard!!

    Another Kafir

    August 9, 2008 at 2:15 am

  7. “Their apostles came with clear proofs, but they did not believe what they once denied. That is how God seals the hearts of those who do not believe.”
    oh!These geniuses came with clear proofs that earth was round and all other sciences like heart surgery etc.See all these religious texts which r so full of sciences.But we wretched atheists cant see the truth coz God sealed our hearts.

    Anand

    August 9, 2008 at 6:11 am

  8. This comes from Exodus 4:21: “And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.”

    I guess this is from where Mo got the idea to say that those who do not believe signs or what god has confided to Mo do so because He has sealed their hearts.

    What is funny is that when god was doing his stuff live and in direct people were very hard to convince, and now that he is not visibly around people are more ready to believe. Has god’s touch on hearts softened?

    Hmmm… perhaps this state is the result of men’s evolution. Think about it. Originally you have a very present god. There were people who could attest his presence through his prophets, acts, miracles and punishments… yet almost all of them did not believe in him. Ergo, they were hard core skeptics . I mean, many of us would need just a small proof to change our minds, but none is forthcoming, but these guys got opening seas, mana for food during 40 years, earthquakes, prophets who could wreck serious damage, a resurrected messiah, a number of saints, and most could not get themselves to believe. Now, most of these skeptical guys were the ones being decimated with plague, disasters, opening seas, lightning, inquisitions, massacres, and what not, amounting to something akin to a “divine selection of the human species”. So after some centuries of this, skeptic’s numbers have declined, whilst those of believer have increased.

    Sorry for this ditrabe. Just writing what came from the top of my head.

    Maybe I was inspired.

    Maybe I was DIVINELY inspired.

    Oh gee.

    Brg.

    PS: xyz, I guess that Polar Bears would be no good in Egypt. Fearless and fiercely as they are, they might get heat stroke and die within minutes of arrival. In documentaries, when you see Polar Bears rolling in the ground during blizzards, is because their bodies are hot and feel the need to cool them down.

    brg

    August 9, 2008 at 7:43 am

  9. Like Gregory says, the Exodus story is complete BS. In fact, there is not only zero evidence to support a real Moses or a mass Exodus from Egypt, there is no evidence that Judaism even came into existence prior to 750 BC, and that is even slight. Judaism most likely didn’t become what we know it as today until around 500-450 BC where there is at least some proof that Jews (formerly the Israelites) became monotheistic pork snuffers.
    There is a lot of evidence to the contrary regarding the Exodus.
    A great video is available on the internet (youtube) in 9 or 10 parts called The Bible Unearthed.

    The Atheist Jew

    August 9, 2008 at 8:53 am

  10. I feel sorry for the muslims-believing others'(Jews/Christians) fairytales about Jesus/Moses as truth when Jews/Christians themselves are subjecting these to rational scrutiny and rejecting them.

    Anand

    August 9, 2008 at 10:09 am

  11. so i’m a little fuzzy on that part at the end “and whatsoever the Pharaoh and his people had fashioned, and the structures they had raised, were destroyed.”. . . um, i guess Mo didn’t have the history channel or the travel channel, but there are some “structures” in Egypt that missed destruction. . .

    maybe he’s talking about other structures and the seal over my heart doesn’t allow me to get it. . .

    atheistintx

    August 9, 2008 at 10:35 am

  12. We need to map the Qu’ran and find the patterns of similarity in it between the torah and the gosepl. You could produce like a kind of computer plan of it.
    See, i am convinced that Islam arose cos it existed in its early form due to conflict between Judaism and Christianity. Mo saw that both were rivals and fathomed therefore neither could be true. This left a huge door open for him to take whatever he had access to from both and rework them, so he plaigarized both religions in order to, as he was able to convince his followers… build a better mouse trap so sto speak.
    What i am telling is that the status of Judaism and Christianity in the Hejaz in the centuries leading up to Muhammad’s revelation was more significant than has previously been supposed and that Muhammad must have experimented with both in order to rip off both. The interraction of two monotheistic faiths created a religious hot house into which Muhammad was born. We need to dispense with the myth that the arabs were very isolated, cos even a cursory glance at chapters like this ione show that could not have been the case at all.

    jasmine

    August 9, 2008 at 10:35 am

  13. Another Kafir,
    U said that it’s not possible to believe something ‘under pressure.’
    Here’s the problem, when ure afraid u just go lalong with stuff and finally u try to rationalize to ureself that all what u are doing isn’t just out of fear….. which is so so so demeaning. Rather than demean and humiliate ureself, u try to believe and to stop ureself just SCREAMING OUT- u see reasons to believe that it’s all real cos the alternative is so horrible, that ure a coward. Someone has power of life and death over u…. it affects the way u think.

    jasmine

    August 9, 2008 at 10:46 am

  14. Another Kafir, there’s something that Matt Dillahunty said on a recent Non-Prophets show that really resonated with me. He said something like, say, if God showed up in his house, he would still have a lot of ‘splaining to do. How could God condone slavery, for example. I’m with Matt on this one. If God did exist, and he actually revealed the hate and misogyny that’s in the Quran, I’d want nothing to do with him anyway.

    The Atheist Jew, wow, 500 BCE? That’s much more recent than I would have imagined. Looks like I’ve got some reading to do! Thanks for the link. I’ll check it out today. P.S. I lurve your blog.

    atheistintx, dude, do some research. There’s no evidence that any of those pyramids actually existed. …..bahahahahaha!

    APG, that myth about Arabs being totally isolated from Christians and Jews is such a load of horseshit. Khadija used to drag Mohammed along to hear a Christian convert recite the Bible.

    kafirgirl

    August 9, 2008 at 11:48 am

  15. Did she really, that’s so interesting. See KG, us as Muslims, western scholars, religious experts, Arabists, historians, anthropologists ect etc, all of us are looking for real fancy explanations…… but u know what, the truth is going to be bizarrely mundane, we just got to strip it all down, khadija doing that is exactly the kind of thing that just smacks of how it really was. We need a no frills ‘reality tv’ approach to understanding Mo.

    jasmine

    August 9, 2008 at 11:58 am

  16. @6
    It seems like Moslems can’t use Pascal’s wager. It’s been a constant theme since chapter 2 that as soon as you don’t believe god seals your hearts so you can never believe. So, unless you are a totally gullible dumbass who believes the first time you hear it before any arguments or evidence convinces you, you’re doomed. If you have doubts that need overcoming by Pascal or anything else, that means you didn’t believe right off so you’re fucked. All of which makes Moses’ little magic show pretty pointless.

    watercat

    August 9, 2008 at 12:05 pm

  17. “Then again, I feel the same about Planet of the Apes and Omega Man”

    Wow! Not many girls even know these movies let alone like them! Planet of the Apes is one of the best. Lots of religion in there if you look. What about Soylent Green?

    GAD

    August 9, 2008 at 12:09 pm

  18. Being a sci fi freak i know both movies. Soylent Green and Omega Man both star Charlston Heston, and he looks pretty camp in the former with a 70’s “Village People” look. But in Omega Man, now that’s one cool movie, there’s a Mo type charachter called “Mathias,” who leads these religious ghouls in a world ravaged by disease. Charleston has the serum, in his blood to save humaity and dies in a cruciform position in a fountain frothing blood, which is a metaphor for christ. Brilliant movie, up there with Escape from New York with Snake Pliscin and Alien. And check out Alien 3 for Ripley’s christ like jump into the furnace.

    jasmine

    August 9, 2008 at 12:18 pm

  19. Watercat, fucking excellent point. Friend X and I discussed that lately — she was trying to argue that Islam is the only religion that tells you to question everything. Bullshit! I had to explain the Quran’s never-question-anything policy, and how God puts a seal on your heart if you do so. She was pretty disappointed, but it definitely got her thinking.

    GAD: teehee, I love Soylent Green. I’m kind of a movie nerd.

    kafirgirl

    August 9, 2008 at 12:20 pm

  20. “But no, that’s not God’s style. His routine usually involves being as big a pain in the ass as possible and making things way more complicated than necessary. It’s how he rolls”

    Just like in the James Bond, Matt Helm, Austin Powers and so many other movies it makes for a good story.

    GAD

    August 9, 2008 at 1:26 pm

  21. “Being a sci fi freak i know both movies.”

    OMG! Not one but two atheist/Sci-Fi girls! What are the odds. This is starting to feel biblical! :)

    GAD

    August 9, 2008 at 1:53 pm

  22. 7.105. … So let the Children of Israel go with me [Moses].
    17.103. And he [Pharao] wished to scare them from the land, …

    Moses wanted his people to leave Egypt and Pharao wanted to chase them out, so what’s the problem?

    Btw polar bears have a sense of fear. You can scare them from your house with a staff and some shouting. I saw a Russian scientist do so in TV.

    kereng

    August 9, 2008 at 3:14 pm

  23. Anyone like to hit me with a sci fi question, please, just shoot.

    jasmine

    August 9, 2008 at 3:44 pm

  24. GAD, it’s more common than you think. Atheist girls kinda rock.

    kereng, dang. You killed my polar bear dream. I’ll go with explosive diarrhea, I guess. But I’m not happy about it.

    kafirgirl

    August 10, 2008 at 12:34 am

  25. Atheist Jew — shhhhhh, or you’ll let out the secret that there’s no evidence for the United Monarchy. And then we’ll get talking about goddess and idol worship in the supposedly monotheist kingdoms, and how most of the Bible represents a hatchet-style edit-and-add on the part of a small group of priests trying to rewrite history to support their man in the political battles of the time.

    Kafirgirl — yep, AND Iblis rewrote huge tracts of Egyptian history to make it look like they used slaves. AND planted all that evidence at the pyramids that proves otherwise. That wily rascal!

    Gregory

    August 10, 2008 at 12:42 am

  26. I agree about God not having tolerated the misogyny of Quran etc. but activities of the God himself are far from inspiring. Assuming religion is true, he would be some kind of bastard to kill people for not “believing” in something. Probably because it is a core character of christianity as well, we seem to ignore this cruelity.
    Here we have God telling us that he blinds, seals the hearts of people who disbelieve while the slight bit of theism in me feels sad that God is so uninspiring and cruel. Bastard is also an understatement.
    There may be people who do not know the misogyny of Quran and the other cruelities like slave girls etc. but people of the religion do know that God threatens people with hell the ones who do not believe, and the fact that the religious people have not spoken against it reeks, it downright sucks.. its pathetic that they feel like worshiping this sort of a bastard attention seeker baby bastard God.

    Apg, Ak, the way this plays on psychology is very sad, if we should come out from the clutches of religion, we would look back at these days as a period of grave ignorance and will remember it as a tragedy. We will have the misfortune of having witnessed it.

    Another Kafir

    August 10, 2008 at 1:49 am

  27. Gregory is correct – most of the “history” in the Torah/Bible/Qu’ran is a conglomerate of various oral myths that were edited and compiled by priests under King Josiah of Judah in order to conquer his northern neighbour, Israel.

    Read the bible carefully…it’s kind of convenient that Josiah is a descendant of the true kings, David and Solomon, whereas his northern rival is a mere usurper.

    Khadija used to drag Mohammed along to hear a Christian convert recite the Bible.

    It’s more than that, kafirgirl. It was the Christian Ghassanid Arabs changing from Heraclius side to that of Mohammed that enabled the Muslims to conquer Egypt, Syria and the Levant. There’s evidence to suggest that there was no “Islam” until about 800 AD (when the Koran was compiled) and that the religion originally began as an Arian form of Christianity that was retconned into a separate and “superior” religion in order to unify the people of the peninsula and to give those Arabs (and their prophet) precedence over the more advanced people of the northern lands. There may never have been a Mohammed – he may be as fictional as King Arthur or Robin Hood.

    Quentin George

    August 10, 2008 at 4:00 am

  28. It’s funny, when I was a kid and was told the story of Moses confronting the pharoah and his magicians I doubted it even then. But for some reason I actually forced myself that it made sense when it didn’t. I wonder if any other muslims actually do that to themselves…

    As far as I know there is no evidence of Moses or the slave Jews he freed, someone suggested that the egyptians hide the evidence because it was humiliating, but am sure that some peasant or scholar would actually write about such a big thing like this happening.

    Also, the science of the ten plagues: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kGACkMBxZNs

    Humra

    August 10, 2008 at 7:31 am

  29. Humra, if God showed up like he supposedly did in Egypt and caused all kinds of plagues that affected only certain people, I would convert to what ever religion God wasn’t killing.
    The idea that the Egyptian would keep quiet about it makes no sense. If anything, they would have converted in the thousands.
    No need for a scientific explanation for plagues that never happened either.

    The Atheist Jew

    August 10, 2008 at 11:53 am

  30. There may never have been a Mohammed – he may be as fictional as King Arthur or Robin Hood.

    QG, no shit? Wow. I realize this makes me sound like an asshat, but I hadn’t even considered the possibility that Mohammed may never have existed. It might have something to do with having visited his grave when I was in Saudi Arabia. Not that a grave necessarily proves his existence, of course, but it was something tangible enough that I never questioned whether he was an actual person. So much to learn. Head……exploding…….. Hey if you have any sources you think I should check out to learn more, I’d really appreciate the hookup.

    The Atheist Jew, exactly. The Quran says over and over again that God is through sending signs. Why? Because he did shit like this and people were assholes who didn’t want to believe, regardless of what that sign may be. What a crock of shit.

    kafirgirl

    August 10, 2008 at 12:40 pm

  31. “most of the “history” in the Torah/Bible/Qu’ran is a conglomerate of various oral myths that were edited and compiled by priests under King Josiah”

    If you really want to understand this view to it’s fullest I highly recommend this book:

    Who Wrote The Bible
    By Richard Elliott Friedman

    It will dramatically change how you see the bible. It’s founded on the Documentary Hypothesis:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

    GAD

    August 10, 2008 at 12:53 pm

  32. @Humra
    “But for some reason I actually forced myself that it made sense when it didn’t. I wonder if any other muslims actually do that to themselves…”

    Yes.That is what people of all religions do. And the reason they give is:
    “Human intellect, logic and sense organs have their limitations and it wud be wrong to disbelieve something merely because it is illogical.”

    anand

    August 10, 2008 at 12:57 pm

  33. For the NT (and therefore Jesus) there is a similar idea:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_document

    I would recommend this book as a good stater:

    The Jesus Puzzle
    By Earl Doherty

    GAD

    August 10, 2008 at 1:03 pm

  34. As for a historical Jesus. This is a really good article on the fact that Jesus was most likely an invention.

    Paul or someone like Paul invented Jesus in a dream. Lots of the common myths of the time were eventually added, and then with a few decades, Jesus was believed to be a real person.

    The Atheist Jew

    August 10, 2008 at 5:09 pm

  35. Atheist Jew:

    Yes. A similar made up person that forms the center of a religion can be found on the cargo cults of the pacific.

    And this fictional persona, called John Frum ,was invented 50 year ago.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

    The new testament Jesus is nothing more than the John Frum of that time.

    Brigno

    August 11, 2008 at 1:17 am

  36. Anand

    August 11, 2008 at 2:23 am

  37. “It might have something to do with having visited his grave when I was in Saudi Arabia. Not that a grave necessarily proves his existence, of course, but it was something tangible enough that I never questioned whether he was an actual person.”

    Falsification of graves is a common method for conferring historical legitimacy on semi-mythical figures. In 1191 AD, King Edward I of England, for instance, played up to a great extent the “discovery” of the supposed grave of King Arthur and Queen Guinevere. This was useful for the King as a propaganda tool for allowing him to claim lordship over Wales and Scotland and “unite” Arthur’s legendary kingdom.

    You can read more on this here.

    “Hey if you have any sources you think I should check out to learn more, I’d really appreciate the hookup.”

    As others have pointed out, Mohammed, like Jesus, suffers from a paucity of non religious sources that attest to his existence. This in itself does not mean definitely he did not exist, but does allow for certain doubt on the subject.

    A quick google (and then discounting unreliable sources) gives this page here as a good starting point.

    Key point: Mohammed alleged death: 632 AD

    First appearance of the Qu’ran: 844 AD

    This would be like there being no account of the life of the Duke of Wellington until 2008.

    Furthermore Christian and pagan sources, though they mention 7th century Arabs and their conquests, make no mention of a holy book. It pops into existence much, much later than Muslim apologists would like to admit.

    There is a lot we still have to learn on early Islamic history and much work remaining in the realm of critical Qu’ranic scholarship. Unfortunately the stupefying and reactionary grip of Saudi funding currently menaces all Islamic studies departments in its grips and as a result, much work is deemed “off limits”.

    Quentin George

    August 11, 2008 at 7:15 am

  38. “Paul or someone like Paul invented Jesus in a dream. ”

    I don’t think it can be agreed to be that simple. Paul’s vision on the road to Damascus, a vision which has all the hallmarks of an epileptic fit, clearly set him on the road to developing his own form of Christianity, however there was clearly a pre-existing “Jesus cult” already in Jerusalem, but their theology was much different (and likely little different from orthodox Judaism).

    Paul’s innovations however, led us to the familiar form of Christianity today.

    Quentin George

    August 11, 2008 at 7:17 am

  39. Quentin, it’s not like King Arthur and i am kind of confused as to why u would think it is, though i read ure rationale in a different post. It even has a comforting affect sort of to imagine that Mo never existed and that it really is a fairy tale of human folly.
    The thing is, he existed exactly as the Sahabba and the strong hadiths record and i think Muhammad is one of the best documented characters from the ancient world, much more than Alexander, or even Julius Caesar.
    He did what the sources recall and falsification of Muhammad’s life is as impossible as falsification of the Holocaust-both are real. It’s revisionism and i think in Muhammad’s case, yes, all scrutiny is possible, but it doesn’t hold up cos the sources are too detailed, and intricate. As the Mongols were united from nothing and taken on a imperial adventure, so it was with Mo. Muhammad is best compared to Chinghiz Khan in historical terms, a pure case of a man driven to power.
    Quentin, stand inside the Rowda, look through the circular hole into a dark, airless room. He’s in there. There’s no doubt.

    Ok, i think i see, no, the Qu’ran appeared when Mo was in his cave and Jibril came, or in other words when Mo recited the first sura, from scraps of stuff from the Bible and the Torah. The 877 date is something totally different, that’s compilation, compilation of something that had already existed for 2 centuries and though uncodified, had already altered the course of history.
    I will give u a example, the 877 date is comparable to the Council of Nicaea, which doesn’t of course mean that the Gospels were not written down within 50 years of Jesus’ death, let alone that Jesus didnt exist.

    Ok, here’s something else……. did Muhammad create the Qu’ran? If he did then there must have been a time when Allah’s word didn’t exist or wasn’t, which is impossible. But if the Qu’ran has always existed, as Muslims claim, then did it exist before Allah. And if it did, is that not idolatry?

    Jasmine

    August 11, 2008 at 7:57 am

  40. @Atheist Jew
    “Humra, if God showed up like he supposedly did in Egypt and caused all kinds of plagues that affected only certain people, I would convert to what ever religion God wasn’t killing.”

    Fucking True. Tell me this.. how come God is fucking killing off all others except his chosen prophet at that instance of time? Isn’t it like.. first fuck all except jews since they are the chosen people of God. Then it’s like fuck all except Christians since they are the chosen people now. Then it’s fuck all except muslims since they are .. head esplode.

    @KG, Atheist Jew, APG et al.. i bow to you all. for trying to make sense of something as illogical as what you are reading. reading parts of this is making my head go in circles….

    Shashi

    August 11, 2008 at 2:33 pm

  41. @APG
    “But if the Qu’ran has always existed, as Muslims claim, then did it exist before Allah. And if it did, is that not idolatry?”

    u are soooo fucked up. u question the authority of Mo (and Allah)? you are sooo going to hell.. see you there.

    Shashi

    August 11, 2008 at 2:35 pm

  42. First appearance of the Qu’ran: 844 AD

    The oldest Koran fragments from Sanaa are dated about 700 AD.
    John of Damascus reported some strange suras ~730 AD.

    … strong hadiths … one of the best documented characters …

    Mohammed’s life was written by Ibn Ishaq in the 8th century but that book is lost and only transmitted in an edition by Ibn Hisham. There ain’t such a thing as a strong hadith. All hearsay, legends ans anecdotes.

    That Muhammed or Mamed (as John o.D. says) or Abul Kasim ibn Abdallah might have lived. But most likely he did’t live in the town that we know as Mekka today (but not before 750) and didn’t write all of the Koran. There are no coins or inscriptions of Muhammad or any caliph before Muawia. And Muawia put a cross in his coins and inscriptions.

    More discussion on that topic: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=56994

    kereng

    August 11, 2008 at 3:21 pm

  43. “The thing is, he existed exactly as the Sahabba and the strong hadiths record and i think Muhammad is one of the best documented characters from the ancient world, much more than Alexander, or even Julius Caesar.
    He did what the sources recall and falsification of Muhammad’s life is as impossible as falsification of the Holocaust-both are real. It’s revisionism and i think in Muhammad’s case, yes, all scrutiny is possible, but it doesn’t hold up cos the sources are too detailed, and intricate.”

    Jasmine, as kereng says, that is not true. Alexander and Julius Caesar and much better documented than Mohammed, Caesar and Alexander not only recorded their own writings (we still have Casesar’s “Gallic Wars” for instance) but we’re also attested to by their rivals and enemies. Genghis Khan is well recorded in Chinese and Turkic histories. On the other hand, the entire life story we have of Mohammed is nothing more than hearsay. As historical documents, the hadith are almost worthless, and about 99.5% of them are clearly plagarised or inauthentic. Any tomb or bones that the Saudis claim are Mohammed’s may be just as bogus as King Edward’s discovery of Arthur’s grave.

    Quentin George

    August 11, 2008 at 5:34 pm

  44. I just wanted to agree with Quentin’s explanation. One of the best ways to understand historical figures is to look for writings that were authored by their enemies or political / religious opponents. Julius Caesar and Alexander are both documented by opposing nations that suffered their wrath so to speak and in many ways this provides a greater context for our understanding of them.

    Characters such as Jesus and Muhammad are rarely if ever mentioned outside of a single source of their respective holy text. The specific extra-biblical writings on these characters were often mentions of the belief system revolving around them and not about the specific character as a man. This makes historically determining their historical existence very difficult indeed.

    Nathan

    August 11, 2008 at 9:50 pm

  45. Oh, sorry to double post but I often like to leave further reading and I forgot. Here are some interesting links (not really unbiased but what is?):

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/387247/did_muhammad_really_exist.html?cat=49

    http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html

    Let me know of any other interesting readings on either side of this discussion (proving historical veracity of these figures) as I find it an interesting topic.

    Nathan

    August 11, 2008 at 9:59 pm

  46. QG, Nathan — thanks for explaining that further. It’s kind of a testament to indoctrination that I never paused to consider whether Mohammed was an actual historical figure. I just assumed it. It’s funny. I just wrote a comment in another post saying I’ll be reading the OT after I’m done with the Quran. Now I’m not so sure. It looks like I have a lot more reading to do about Mo.

    kafirgirl

    August 11, 2008 at 10:00 pm

  47. Quentin,

    Hi, i read ure post, but no, this is not possible. Muhammad was the prophet and all this bad stuff started cos he was sitting in a cave and he had a plan like to make all the Makkans believe he was not just amerchant, but he was the messenger of Allah. This is what happened. He preached, got a following, there was a counterreaction, he fled to Medina, he reconquered Makkah, there was killings and bad stuff, and then he died having left a wide range of utterances recorded on palm leaves. From that moment on, despite some hiccups like the Rida Wars (explicable cos Muhammad died- and therefore lived), Islam moved on.
    Another, there’s plenty of surviving testimony to resistance to Muhammad, it’s even in the Qu’ran itself where Mo runs down his enemies.
    No, look, this is what u got to know, Mo was the rasul and he was real, and he is the prophet of Muslims and he lived and died in the exact detail as recorded, apart from the fact that the balancing testimony of personages who was against him is lost (though not the fact that they DID resist). It was a epic struggle, u got no idea what really went on, but people fought back hard as everything disintegrated around them.
    U can wish it all away if u want…. but Muhammad is the rasul and the prophet of the Muslims and this is the world what we live in and it’s just first time i ever heard anyone even think such stuff. Another, cos maybe u just think i am a ignorant Paki and stuff, no, i know all about King Arthur and the battle of Baden Hill and loved Arthurian Knights and know how Arthur began, from Geoffrey of Monmouth’s tales superimposed onto ancient legends of any number of possible contenders as the british moved east and the saxons moved in, but there was a lull, someone who was English fought back for at least a generation, that became Arthur.
    So i know, how, cos I am Pakistani but got born in UK, love UK, got me UK passport also, it’s not just a case of i don’t know.
    Last and final, Muhammad is all what they are telling and u can not solve all this by ignoring or negating the source of so much that has happened, cos then u will never understand how we got to be in this situation. In fact, u just create a gap which will get filled with, huh, Islam.

    Jasmine

    August 12, 2008 at 5:33 am

  48. So no need to deviate from the recorded life of the Prophet Muhammad in any way, we know every detail and can use our minds to interpret. He is the Prophet of Muslims, everyone knows and it’s beyond question as such, me mind is clear and nothing in one million years can change. And like i told, u think the Saudis decided the Prophet is in the mosque in Medina, no, they only arrived in the Hijaz in 1927, persons have been making Hajj and umrah for 1400 years.

    Jasmine

    August 12, 2008 at 5:37 am

  49. Quentin, actually, that deviation sort of freaks me out. What about the mahdi of Qadian, he is Muhammad’s successor and even in the modern age we can see how this can arise, is he a story or legend also- but millions of persons believe in him, so this is very real one can most rightly say.

    Jasmine

    August 12, 2008 at 5:38 am

  50. “There are no coins or inscriptions of Muhammad or any caliph before Muawia.”

    So Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali didn’t exist either? And so neither could have Aisha or Fatima?
    Huh, no way, they’re all buried in Medina, in either the Rowda or the Bakhii and Ali is in buried in Meshad Ali, this is in Najaf.
    Another, if Muhammad never existed, how come then in the Braheene Ahmadiyya there’s millions of careful references, (forget hadiths, i am telling about jamiaat book of proofs), or go and look in the Barakat Duaa’- page 10-11, so much proofs in all ways or,Ayenae Kamalat-e-Islam.
    So no one ever told in the history of religion that Muhammad is not real, he’s real same like u and me.

    Jasmine

    August 12, 2008 at 7:16 am

  51. “I just wrote a comment in another post saying I’ll be reading the OT after I’m done with the Quran. Now I’m not so sure. It looks like I have a lot more reading to do about Mo.”

    You know, I’d actually encourage you to read the Old Testament prior to diving into the nitty-gritty details about Mohammed. Much of the myths, legends and outright plagiarisms in the Koran and Hadith make a lot more (historical) sense after reading the earlier versions of said myths from the Old Testament.

    A good example is the “Just who did God tell Abraham to sacrifice? Isaac or Ishmael?”

    Well, the original myth, as it appears in the Jewish testament, says it is Isaac…but in the Islamic tradition, it is suddenly switched to Ishmael? Why the change? Well, it doesn’t make sense until you realise that Arabs were referred to by Jews as “Ishmaelites” and “Ishmael” was a legendary proto-Arab invented in Hebrew mythology.

    Thus, as Islam became less of a religion and more of a thinly veiled vehicle for Arab cultural imperialism (think of the insistence that the Qu’ran can only be read in its “pure” Arabic form, the insistence that non-Arab Muslims use an arab term “Allah” for God” etc), Isaac, considered the Jewish ancestor, was subsituted for Ishmael, and lo and behold, all of a sudden, Arabs take the Jews place as favoured people.

    Voila. Propaganda that would have put even Pravda to shame.

    Quentin George

    August 12, 2008 at 7:32 am

  52. “So no need to deviate from the recorded life of the Prophet Muhammad in any way, we know every detail and can use our minds to interpret. He is the Prophet of Muslims, everyone knows and it’s beyond question as such, me mind is clear and nothing in one million years can change. And like i told, u think the Saudis decided the Prophet is in the mosque in Medina, no, they only arrived in the Hijaz in 1927, persons have been making Hajj and umrah for 1400 years.”

    People have been making the pilgrimage for longer than that. Going to Mecca and facing a big black meteorite is merely a remnant of an earlier, pagan Arab religion and is the most blatant remnant of idol worship in the world today.

    And the fact that lots of people throughout history believed Mohammed’s mouldy old bones are in Mecca is irrelevant – Christians did a brisk trade in relics as well, so much so that at one time Constantinople contained – two – jewel-encrusted heads of John the Baptist.

    “Quentin, actually, that deviation sort of freaks me out. What about the mahdi of Qadian, he is Muhammad’s successor and even in the modern age we can see how this can arise, is he a story or legend also- but millions of persons believe in him, so this is very real one can most rightly say.”

    Millions of people believe in Robin Hood, King Arthur, Jesus Christ, Krishna, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Doesn’t mean they exist.

    At one stage, most of the Christian world fervently believed in “Prester John”, a mythical oriental Christian Emperor who was going to appear in the east and drive Muslims out of the Holy Land.

    ….he never showed.

    Quentin George

    August 12, 2008 at 7:41 am

  53. You don’t believe he was a prophet (good), u don’t believe he even existed, and that’s where history disagrees totally.
    He is in Medina. I can not accept anything else cos anything else is not possible.
    U are comparing Muhammad to legendary personages. Muhammad was no legend.
    To even postulate Muhammad is a legend or mythical figure is such a serious glitch in me mental programming i feel me head is about to explode. It totally distracts from the real work of quantifying Muhammad as a figure wholly explicable by normal rational explanation and it’s not cos i am Pakistani and just got pre programmed to think in a certain way, no.

    Jasmine

    August 12, 2008 at 8:12 am

  54. but Quentin, i do strongly agree with u here on one very important issue, ure right that Islam is ‘a vehicle for Arab cultural imperialism.’

    Jasmine

    August 12, 2008 at 8:18 am

  55. Jasmine, QG, you’re just going to have to agree to disagree. Although, Jasmine, saying “I can not accept anything else cos anything else is not possible,” does not a good argument make. I don’t think QG’s intention is to make any of us feel like jerkoffs. He’s just presenting another side to the story — one that many of us haven’t heard before.

    Not all that long ago, I used to think people who believed Jesus was not one actual historical figure, but a compilation of many people, were insane. Now? I’m not so sure he existed at all.

    As for me? I honestly don’t know enough about both sides of the story to form an opinion. Yet. But I do know this: Mohammed exists in the Quran. And the purpose of this site is not to debunk Islam or anything like that. It’s simply to read the Quran and record my impressions of it. I doubt very much that Moses actually existed, but it doesn’t make a difference in what I write about him — he’s in the Quran. And that’s how it’ll be for Mohammed.

    QG, thanks for bringing this to my attention — I will definitely read up on it more once time frees up.

    kafirgirl

    August 12, 2008 at 9:23 am

  56. I’ve been to India, and I got to say that a plague of explosive diarrhea is unfortunately not all that uncommon in those parts of the world, at least on an individual level. So if I were god, I’d be going with the polar bears as well.

    Florian

    August 12, 2008 at 9:36 am

  57. Florian, you just brought back a really unpleasant memory of one of a trip to Pakistan when i was 17. I’ll just say this:

    those toilets you squat down on to poop + explosive diarrhea + favorite pair of Chuck Taylors = one emo teenager.

    kafirgirl

    August 12, 2008 at 9:38 am

  58. @Jasmine

    So Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali didn’t exist either?

    I did not say that Mohammed did not exist, but I doubt that his name was Mohammed, that he lived in Mecca and that he wrote the Koran.

    Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali are not mentioned in any treaty, letter or any other document of their time. Two old lists of caliphs do not include Ali, so it looks like he was invented last.

    @Quentin George

    Going to Mecca and facing a big black meteorite is merely a remnant of an earlier, pagan Arab religion and is the most blatant remnant of idol worship in the world today.

    That’s what the islamic tradition tells us. But there is no archaeological evidence. The kaaba might have been a church before.

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/mohammed_3866.jsp
    Patricia Crone wrote:

    It is difficult not to suspect that the tradition places the prophet’s career in Mecca for the same reason that it insists that he was illiterate: the only way he could have acquired his knowledge of all the things that God had previously told the Jews and the Christians was by revelation from God himself. Mecca was virgin territory; it had neither Jewish nor Christian communities.

    The suspicion that the location is doctrinally inspired is reinforced by the fact that the Qur’an describes the polytheist opponents as agriculturalists who cultivated wheat, grapes, olives, and date palms. Wheat, grapes and olives are the three staples of the Mediterranean; date palms take us southwards, but Mecca was not suitable for any kind of agriculture, and one could not possibly have produced olives there.

    But Patricia Crone thinks that every occurrence of MHMT means Muhammad the prophet. There are different opinions especially in Germany: http://www.christoph-heger.de/ya_muhammad_no_o_Mohammed.htm

    kereng

    August 12, 2008 at 11:22 am

  59. I have a question- I’ll explain my tortured train of thought in a minute…

    Is there an Islamic equivalent to the poetic expressions “Jesus Christ”, “Jesus Fucking Christ”, “Christ Al-fucking-mighty” etc?

    The way I got to it was this:
    Explosive diarrhoea. I was thinking that truly explosive diarrhoea would be “What’s this on the ground? A crap…(pokes crap with stick- explodes with deafening report)…Jesus Fucking Christ!”

    Now that would be a problem plague, especially as one of my most vivid memories of India is a field full of people next to a trainline all having a 7.00 am crap before work.

    Oz

    August 12, 2008 at 11:41 am

  60. Kereng, she told us not to discuss it no more.

    Jasmine

    August 12, 2008 at 12:04 pm

  61. Jasmine, you guys can keep talking about it. I find it all very interesting. It just doesn’t really seem to be going anywhere, that’s all. It’s basically starting to turn into a yes-he-is / no-he-isn’t thing. Know what I mean?

    Oz, your definition of explosive diarrhea is vastly superior to my own. Kudos x10.

    kafirgirl

    August 12, 2008 at 12:13 pm

  62. it’s ok Kafir Girl cos u are right really, i mean, cos of me background and stuff- i am never ever going to accept, it’s just unthinakble idea really, i can not accept it so i am bowing out (before me head blows a circuit).

    Jasmine

    August 12, 2008 at 12:25 pm

  63. I would argue that dismissing it based on how you were raised is no different than someone who believes in God just because that’s what their parents told them. I’m not saying I buy it. I’m just saying that at this point, I don’t know enough to come to a conclusion one way or another.

    kafirgirl

    August 12, 2008 at 12:36 pm

  64. @Nathan.
    I have heard about Jeebus not being an actual person, but I haven’t read an article so well researched. (then again, i dont know greek or latin so the author could have misinterpreted any info and i wouldnt know)

    Christianity has a lot of pagan beliefs incorporated into it .. actually it has quite a lot of other beliefs incopro into it, but to base an entire religion on someone else’s belief is quite a stretch… and Mo plagiarizing it to start a different one is just taking it to a next level.

    Maybe 250 yrs from now people will really believe Luke Skywalker was a historical person and that Darth Vader really existed.

    Shashi

    August 12, 2008 at 12:50 pm

  65. The fuck?? You mean Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader are not real? ….if you need me, I’ll be in the bathtub slitting my wrists.

    kafirgirl

    August 12, 2008 at 12:51 pm

  66. “You killed my polar bear dream. I’ll go with explosive diarrhea, I guess. But I’m not happy about it.”

    How about a flock of killer Dodos. Noone would EVER expect that, and who could make it up?

    Rowsdower

    August 12, 2008 at 2:26 pm

  67. well i am going to shock everyone…… cos i have kind of emotional issues with believing Captain Picard is not ‘real’. How come. Cos since i was a kid i always identified with STAR FLEET and i write even me own episodes of S. Trek.
    Rather, than accept it’s all not real, i kind of decided Gene Rodenberry is a prophet. Like i mean, he fulfills all the criteria of a prophet. Say god wants to tell us stuff, right now, u think he’s going to pick like someone to go and stand on a mountain? God or not, he is still a prophet.
    I find STAR TREK is the only thing i really have in me life. This is where me resistance started also, it was with STAR TREK which showed me how to think and how human values don’t depend on religion.

    Jasmine

    August 12, 2008 at 2:35 pm

  68. APG – “i write even me own episodes of S. Trek.”

    ever thought of publishing them? I think that would like ultra cool. and anyways when i start my own religion, i have you and KG listed as my book and speech writers. :)

    Shashi

    August 12, 2008 at 2:58 pm

  69. Ack, you said speech.

    I just got asked to write a speech for a wedding. “Make it funny,” she said. “No, no…make it hilarious.”

    Oh em eff gee, the pressure is killing me.

    kafirgirl

    August 12, 2008 at 3:01 pm

  70. i write s. trek for fun, me novels are serious and only way i can get a income.

    Jasmine

    August 12, 2008 at 3:29 pm

  71. “well i am going to shock everyone…… cos i have kind of emotional issues with believing Captain Picard is not ‘real’. How come. Cos since i was a kid i always identified with STAR FLEET and i write even me own episodes of S. Trek.
    Rather, than accept it’s all not real, i kind of decided Gene Rodenberry is a prophet. Like i mean, he fulfills all the criteria of a prophet. Say god wants to tell us stuff, right now, u think he’s going to pick like someone to go and stand on a mountain? God or not, he is still a prophet.
    I find STAR TREK is the only thing i really have in me life. This is where me resistance started also, it was with STAR TREK which showed me how to think and how human values don’t depend on religion.”

    That is really cool and interesting! I am a huge Trek fan, STNG was good but the best was DS9! Those are usually fighting words with most Trekkers.

    GAD

    August 12, 2008 at 5:57 pm

  72. DS 9, oh, no! U know why it didn’t work for me? Cos that space station was static, it’s movement, that idea of pushing out, on and on, relentlessly- that’s part of the appeal. And DS 9 was partly civilianized, i guess i am a STAR FLEET girl at heart maybe.
    U know the vision of Gene’s with religion- that’s mine too.
    As is STAR TREK on racism, and sexism. That’s the world we can live in- IF WE WANT.

    Jasmine

    August 12, 2008 at 6:33 pm

  73. “Maybe 250 yrs from now people will really believe Luke Skywalker was a historical person and that Darth Vader really existed.”

    Hah, this is an interesting point indeed. I never really thought to try and imagine which figures from modern literature would be made into real figures in the future. I think that would be hard to do now because of the extensive video, images, etc that exist today and our extremely comprehensive digital records. Now if all that were to disappear over a long period of time, and only a few remnants remained, I could almost see it happening.

    Back on the issue of the historical veracity of Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, etc for one second though. One thing that is clear to me is that there are a lot of things in the world that we will don’t know the actual answer for or that we just don’t currently understand well enough at the current time. It is entirely possible that Moses or Jesus existed, no one can claim with 100% certainty that they didn’t. It reminds me of the fact that you can’t 100% disprove that any god exists either.

    All any of us can do is look at the evidence laid before us, research the issue as best we can, and then come up with conclusions based on which seems most likely to be true based on limiting knowledge. I consider it important to never try to claim absolute certainty on these issues.

    On the Muhammad character, I can see how cultural forces during upbringing would cause us to not be able to question the veracity of these figures. I was raised Jewish and indeed the first time I heard it suggested Abraham didn’t exist, I actually got emotionally upset and very defensive even after I was no longer Jewish. I scoffed at the idea that Abraham wasn’t real because my entire life I was so sure that he had. When I discovered that there is *zero* extra-biblical evidence for this figure, I suddenly realized I needed to take a step back and at least re-evaluate my thinking and consider at least the possibility.

    Nathan

    August 12, 2008 at 7:11 pm

  74. “As is STAR TREK on racism, and sexism. That’s the world we can live in- IF WE WANT.”

    There’s not doubt that STNG dealt with many moral and social issues, and did it quite well.

    I just like really deep serial type plots like B5 and DS9.

    GAD

    August 12, 2008 at 7:12 pm

  75. Continuing the Star Trek theme …

    I really liked The Next Generation (after about the first 2 seasons) and then Voyager. I loved Captain Janeway (she reminded me of Katharine Hepburn). I sure hope we can work towards a world where poverty, sexism, racism, etc become the rare anomaly. I just can’t see it happening as long as Muhammad is a role model on this planet, though. And it may be that humanity can’t move past certain issues, but we should certainly try.

    Michael

    August 12, 2008 at 8:17 pm

  76. perhaps moses should have smeared peanut butter on the magicians’ forehead with his COCK! what utter bullshit. a bukkake video makes for a more impressive display of ‘magic’.

    at least the jews aren’t displayed as evil conniving fucks, but rather whining pussies. it still doesn’t make sense and perhaps there are further and deeper explanations in chapters to come regarding the nature of the anti-semitism expressed by many followers of Mo. would it be too much to ask that the jews come up with better magicians?

    Priest

    August 18, 2008 at 10:14 pm


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