KafirGirl

We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

Swimmin’ in Women: Mohammed’s wives and concubines. (Part II)

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So far we’ve covered 11 of Mohammed’s lady-friends.  This post covers 7 more, plus a few others.  Yowzaa.  Kind of makes you wonder if he imposed the 4 wife maximum, just so he could collect all the women for himself.

Now some of the wives were clearly more important than others.  Some of them — like Aisha and Safiya — have tons of information out there about them.  Others?  Barely one story.  And to confuse matters, some of the wives actually had the same name.  Jessica is to my generation as Zainab is to Mo’s.  And then there are the spelling variations on the names.  Oh mah fucking gah, it’s been a pain in the ass.

Anyway, this is it.  The last post about Mohammed’s wives.  After this it’s back to business as usual.  Enjoy it, babies!

At some point, Mohammed married a woman named Sana bint Asma’ bin al-Salt al-Sulamiyyah.  How’s that for a mouthful?  Anyway, she died before they consummated the marriage, and I couldn’t find much about her aside from that.  See what I mean about there not being much info on some of them?

Then there’s Zainab bint Khuzayma.  Zainab was married before Mohammed, but her husband died at the Battle of Badr.  She asked Mohammed to marry her.  Nice!  Tradition be damned.  He was 54 at the time, and she was 31. She died a few months after their marriage, and again, there’s not much else written about her.

The next lady on the list is Asma bint Noman.  Mohammed married her, but divorced her before they had sex.  Why?  Well, it turned out she had leprosy.  That must have been the equivalent of herpes back in the day.  I swear, baby, I didn’t know! Anyway, he paid her some money and kicked her to the curb.  But that’s just one version of that story.

The other version is that Mohammed married her and brought her to his home.  He tried to get up on her, but she said, “I seek refuge with Allah from you.”

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 181:
Narrated Al-Awza:
I asked Az-Zuhri, “Which of the wives of the Prophet sought refuge with Allah from him?” He said “I was told by ‘Ursa that ‘Aisha said, ‘When the daughter of Al-Jaun was brought to Allah’s Apostle (as his bride) and he went near her, she said, “I seek refuge with Allah from you.” He said, “You have sought refuge with The Great; return to your family.”

Apparently this was the magic phrase, because he sent her back to her family.  Too bad some of the other women didn’t know that trick.

Next up is Maria the Copt. Her story is a fun one.  If you can call it that.  Maria and her sister, Sirin, were gifts to Mohammed from the governor of Alexandria.  Gifts. They came along with a mule, a set of fancy clothes and a eunuch.  For those who don’t know, a eunuch was a castrated man(?)-slave.  No joke.

Tabari, History of the Prophets and Kings, via Wikipedia
In this year Hātib b. Abi Balta’ah came back from al-Muqawqis bringing Māriyah and her sister Sīrīn, his female mule Duldul, his donkey Ya’fūr, and sets of garments. With the two women al-Muqawqis had sent a eununch, and the latter stayed with them.

So these two Christian slaves were gifts for Mohammed.  He kept Maria for himself — she must have been hot — and he sent Sirin to one of his buddies.  The donkey and the eunuch went with the delivery guy.  (“Keep the change, buddy.”)

Apparently Mohammed liked Maria, but he didn’t like her like her, because (gasp!) he did not marry her.  That’s right.  Maria was not Mohammed’s wife.  She was his slave. His property.  No different than, say,  the laptop I’m typing this on.  Except that I don’t try to stick my dick in the laptop.  And I probably wouldn’t try it even if I actually had a dick.  Or, hell, I don’t know.  Maybe I would.  Boys do some pretty weird shit with their dicks.  Know why I’m glad I’m a girl?  Because I’ve never had urge to tie my genitalia into knots.  Don’t act like you don’t know what I’m talking about.

Anyway, some apologists say that Maria became a Muslim, so Mohammed freed and married her, but I’m not buying it.  For starters, she wasn’t listed as a wife in the earliest sources.  Plus, Mohammed and his legal wives lived in one building next to the Medina mosque.  But Maria the Copt lived in a different house near the edge of Medina.  Not even Aisha, Mohammed’s favorite wife, got her own house, something’s up.

Ibn Tabari again:

[Mohammed] had intercourse with her [Mary] by virtue of her being his property.

His property. How fucked up is that?  Man, slavery is depressing.  Here’s a fun story to lighten the mood:

One night Hafsa (remember her?) caught Mo and Maria having sex.  ….on Safiya’s bed!  And it wasn’t even Maria’s turn!  Mohammed is breaking his own law here.  The law that you have to treat all your wives equally or else you can only have the one.  Homeboy was busted, and pretty scared that the other wives would find out about the whole thing.  Oh em gee, what would Aisha think?? So he asked Hafsa to keep it under wraps.  He promised he’d never have sex with Maria again, just so long as nobody found out.

Hafsa, however, had a big fucking mouth.  She told everyone.  And then suddenly *poof* God gave Mohammed a revelation that fixed the whole problem:

66:1. O Prophet, why forbiddest thou what God has made lawful to thee, seeking the good pleasure of thy wives? And God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.
66:2. God has ordained for you the absolution of your oaths. God is your Protector, and He is the All-knowing, the All-wise.

God tells Mohammed that the promise he made is no longer void.  It’s Mohammed’s God-given right (literally) to tap that ass, and by Jove, he’ll do it!  How very fucking convenient!

66:3. And when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a certain matter; and then, when she told of it, and God disclosed that to him, he made known part of it, and turned aside from part; then, when he told her of it, she said, ‘Who told thee this?’ He said, ‘I was told of it by the All-knowing, the All-aware.’

God disclosed that to him, huh?  Riiiiight.  More likely, one of his other wives chewed him out for fucking out of turn, and he traced it back to Hafsa.  Which didn’t requrie a lot of detective work since, you know, she was the one that busted him.

66:4. If you two repent to God, yet your hearts certainly inclined; but if you support one another against him, God is his Protector, and Gabriel, and the righteous among the believers; and, after that, the angels are his supporters.

God tells Mohammed that if his wives start getting along and ganging up on him, they’re in for some serious shit.  God, Gabriel, the Muslims and the angels are all on Team Mo.  You can’t beat Team Mo.  And if you do, you’ll be struck with lightening or turned into a pig.  That’s how they roll.

66:5. It is possible that, if he divorces you, his Lord will give him in exchange wives better than you, women who have surrendered, believing, obedient, penitent, devout, given to fasting, who have been married and virgins too.

That’s right.  If his wives act up too much, Mohammed will divorce them.  And then God will give him all new wives.  Obedient wives.  And some of them will be virgins!  Add some grapes to that mix and, holy shit, it’ll be like heaven on earth!

Maria the Copt was the second woman to have Mohammed’s babies.  (The first was Khadija, his boss-wife.)  Mohammed and Maria had a son, and they named him Ibrahim ibn Mohammed.  Ibrahim.  As in Abraham.  Interesting fucking choice, don’t you think?  Baby Abe got sick and died when he was roughly 18 months old.  Shitty.  I’m not going to make a joke about that, because, hell, I’m not heartless.  Dead babies are not funny.  Dead baby jokes, on the other hand…

What’s the difference between a truck full of dead babies and a truck full of bowling balls?  …you can’t unload the bowling balls with a pitchfork.

Yeah.  I’m a jerk.  Anyway, enough on Maria.  There are plenty of other ladies to discuss.

Rayhana bint Amr ibn Khunafa was another captured Jewish woman.  Seriously, Mo can’t keep his hands off of those Jewish women.  He says he hates them, but then he turns around and starts making out with their daughters.  Rayhana was most likely captured during the Battle of the Trench in 627 CE and, like Maria the Copt, she had her own house.  That sets her apart from Mohammed’s legitimate wives and makes her a slave.

There are conflicting stories about Rayhana, too, and a couple of them just reek of apologetics:

  • One version of the story says that Rayhana happily converted to Islam, so Mohammed freed and married her.  He even gave her dowry.  But, um, he didn’t give Safiya a dowry.  Her dowry was her freedom.  So either this story is bullshit, or Mohammed treated his wives unequally, which would make him a sinner.  God’s rules, not mine.
  • Another version of the story says that Mohammed married her, but he was pissed that she refused to wear hijab.  It caused a lot of problems for them, and that’s why she lived in a different house than all the other women.  Pssh.  Some punishment.  You can wear hijab and share a house with 239084032 women.  Or you can refuse to wear hijab and get your own little house at the edge of town.  Mohammed’s other wives were either borderline retarded or this premise doesn’t make a whole lot of  sense.
  • A third version of the story is that Rayhana refused to accept Islam, so he kept her as a slave.  I can kind of see that one happening.  I mean, people are convinced their religion is right and everyone else is wrong.  Just look at the Muslims and Christians that comment on this blog.  They’re convinced their religion is the right one, and that everyone else is a fucking moron who will burn in hell.  People like that aren’t shopping for a new religion.  Why on earth would they convert?
  • And yet another version of the story says that Mohammed set her free and she went back to her own people.  Call me cynical, but that sounds like a load of shit.  Mohammed’s not one to turn down the pussy.

Next up is Ghaziyyah bint Jabir, aka Umm Sharik.  She had a son from a previous marriage named Sharik (hence the name Umm Sharik).  According to al-Tabari’s The Last Years of the Prophet, Umm Sharik was attractive, but kind of getting up there in years.  She refused to consummate the marriage, so Mohammed dumped her and sent her back to her family.  Shitty.

There was also a woman named Layla bt. Al-Khatim.  She asked Mohammed if he would marry her, and he did.  Cuuuute!  But then her family harangued her for marrying such a womanizer, and she asked for an annulment.  He gave it to her.  That’s all I could really find on her, too.

Those are all the wives and concubines I could find information on.  There were a couple of other names that keep getting listed among Mohammed’s wives, but I couldn’t find any information on them.  Another Maymuna, another Zainab, Al-Aliyaah bint Zabyan, and Kawlah bt. Hudhayl.  No idea who they are or what their story was.

There were some more women in Mohammed’s life, too.  There were several others that Mohammed considered marrying, but then changed his mind about.  Rejected!  I won’t even bother bolding them:  Umm Habiba bint al-Abbas, Khawlah bint Hakim, Amamah bint Hamzah, Umm Hani bint Abi Talid, Dubbah bint Amir.  They sometimes get lumped in with Mohammed’s wives, but they weren’t.

And I also found something that kind of pissed me off.  There was a hadith popped up on a couple of websites that was especially disturbing.  It talked about a princess who was supposed to marry Mohammed, but she refused to have sex with him…so he hit her.

I looked it up. That’s not what happened.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 63, Number 182:
Narrated Abu Usaid:
We went out with the Prophet to a garden called Ash-Shaut till we reached two walls between which we sat down. The Prophet said, “Sit here,” and went in (the garden). The Jauniyya (a lady from Bani Jaun) had been brought and lodged in a house in a date-palm garden in the home of Umaima bint An-Nu’man bin Sharahil, and her wet nurse was with her. When the Prophet entered upon her, he said to her, “Give me yourself (in marriage) as a gift.” She said, “Can a princess give herself in marriage to an ordinary man?” The Prophet raised his hand to pat her so that she might become tranquil. She said, “I seek refuge with Allah from you.” He said, “You have sought refuge with One Who gives refuge. Then the Prophet came out to us and said, “O Abu Usaid! Give her two white linen dresses to wear and let her go back to her family.” Narrated Sahl and Abu Usaid: The Prophet married Umaima bint Sharahil, and when she was brought to him, he stretched his hand towards her. It seemed that she disliked that, whereupon the Prophet ordered Abu Usaid to prepare her and to provide her with two white linen dresses.

The fuck?  According to this hadith, the lady got pissed, and he raised his hand to console her.  And later, he stretched his hand towards her, but she didn’t want to be touched.  So he had someone else help her get her stuff together to leave.  That’s not so bad.  It’s damn near gentlemanly.  Something’s fishy.

I checked another site, and they both say the same thing.  I should have probably checked a few more sites, but searching for hadith is a pain in the ass.  There are a kajillion of them.  So either whoever translated the hadith from Arabic to English blatantly lied about this hadith.  Or one website lied, and then others picked it up from there.

So if you read that shit online somewhere, don’t believe it.  Someone —  I’m not sure who — is lying.  Calling Mohammed out on the great big piles of horse shit found in the Quran and hadith is one thing.  Making things up like that is quite another — regardless of whether you’re a translator or someone else.  Not.  Fucking.  Cool.  Not fucking cool at all.

That’s all I have on Mo’s wives.  And I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I’m actually excited about going back to the Quran.  Coming up next:  more Moses!  (And more whining Jews!)


I have some news that I thought was worth sharing with you guys.  I finally ventured out into new pork territory today.  Whoo!  Kafir Boy got some ribs and broiled them.  So I can add that to the list:

  • Pepperoni
  • Bacon
  • Sausage
  • Pork chops
  • Ribs – yeehaw!

The verdict?  They were good, but it’s not something I would choose eat every day.  They tasted kinda gamey for lack of a better word.  The way that venison tastes.  Kafir Boy thought I’d like them better if they were smothered in BBQ sauce, but we didn’t have any.  I’m having leftovers for lunch tomorrrow.  Maybe they’ll taste like heaven in round 2.  I’m trying pork loin after that.

Oddly enough, reading the Quran has helped.  The more I read, the more I realize what a bunch of fucking crap it actually is.  Whatever was keeping me from trying all the pork I can get my hands on is absolutely gone.  Reading the Quran broke the spell.  And for once I can say it and mean it:  thank God!

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Written by kafirgirl

August 5, 2008 at 11:07 pm

Posted in Rant

Tagged with , ,

86 Responses

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  1. “just so he could collect all the women for himself”

    Because you know, women are like Pokemon. Gotta catch ‘em all!

    Rob

    August 5, 2008 at 11:11 pm

  2. Exactly, Rob. I’ve already got doubles of Pickachu bint Ahmed and Bulbasaur ibn Mohammed. Who wants to trade??

    kafirgirl

    August 5, 2008 at 11:20 pm

  3. “66:3. And when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a certain matter; and then, when she told of it, and God disclosed that to him, he made known part of it, and turned aside from part; then, when he told her of it, she said, ‘Who told thee this?’ He said, ‘I was told of it by the All-knowing, the All-aware.’”
    Note: Allah is Muhammad’s spy/intelligence agency

    “66:4. If you two repent to God, yet your hearts certainly inclined; but if you support one another against him, God is his Protector, and Gabriel, and the righteous among the believers; and, after that, the angels are his supporters.”
    2 women=I man myth busted. Hats off to Hafsa and Aisha. To tackle two women–Allah, angels, believers—all needed. These two ladies made Allah eat his own words!!!!

    “66:5. It is possible that, if he divorces you, his Lord will give him in exchange wives better than you, women who have surrendered, believing, obedient, penitent, devout, given to fasting, who have been married and virgins too.”

    It is possible that, if he divorces you………Is this Allah talking?Allah is all-knowing. He should know whether Mo will divorce them or not.And Almighty Allah isnt sure whether he will give Mo better wives in exchange.l

    Anand

    August 5, 2008 at 11:32 pm

  4. I don’t know what to say, really, except

    I’m also seeing a book possibility here: Manly Mo’s Godly Guide to Baggin’ Chicks and Rollin’ In Pussy. Learn how to use your Prophet HypnoStare(tm)! Get God to legislate based on your lust! Steal your son’s wife! Learn when to make them your wife, and when to make them a slave.

    Not, you know, that there was so much difference between “wife’ and “slave.”

    And as for the bit about boys and tying knots in their penises, I think I speak for everyone when I say that from now on we are going to have a very, very odd image of kafirboy.

    Gregory

    August 5, 2008 at 11:36 pm

  5. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

    Your take on Maria had me laughing.

    Michael

    August 5, 2008 at 11:44 pm

  6. It works so well for Mo and Brigham and Ron Hubbard and Warren Jeffs. So I went down to the local bar, found some wimmen and tried it, “I’ve had a revelation from the Lard” sez I, “the All-knowing, the All-aware has commanded that y’all fuck me!”
    Man, it didn’t work! Those ladies kicked the shit out of me. I was bleeding all over.

    watercat

    August 6, 2008 at 12:24 am

  7. You really should have the ribs with barbeque sauce… they’re worth going to hell for hahaha

    Scott

    August 6, 2008 at 1:38 am

  8. Maria the Copt is also central in another fabricated piece of Islamic history – she was supposedly sent by “Muqawqis”, who Muslims allege to be the Byzantine governor of Egypt (ie, Cyril, Patriarch of Alexandria).

    However the ludicrous notion of a Christian priest sending two Christian girls as slaves to a non-Christian warlord leads most scholars to now identify this “Muqawqis” as a Persian Governor during the Sassanid/Byzantine wars, and that the Christian slaves were war booty sent by the Persians to a man they believed to have been a leader of Arab allies.

    Quentin George

    August 6, 2008 at 2:46 am

  9. Re: princess

    Did you notice that this princess was a child? No adult needs a wet nurse.

    ixolite

    August 6, 2008 at 6:12 am

  10. The Jauniyyah who Muhammad struck if she was from the Bani Jaun then i can fill in a very few gaps Kafira. She must have been Jewish and second she must have been from Medina itself. She must also have been pretty spolied cos she gave a brilliant put down to Mo saying, “Hey, u think a princess is going to get it on with a ordinary guy?” Only it got worse cos she then said, “I seek refuge with Allah-from you.” In other words the Jewish princess said she would accept Allah on condition Mo’s hands stayed off her. For her trouble she got two linen dresses and got packed off home and the next one was wheeled in. There was 20 wives and concubines (sex slaves) in the harem, so he wasn’t short of company.
    Here’s the thing……. and it’s a pretty awful thought, but Mo was old now and he knew the risks he was taking in marrying young and gorgeous gals (as all of them were), and so he starts getting cranky old ideas about how the girls have got to stay inside the house etc etc, and these old man’s worried gripes end us as the words of Allah and the defining social pattern of Muslim societies where gender segregation is the norm. Muslims endlessly look at hadiths to back up gender oppression in our countries so the scial damage done here is immesurable. Now am i talking crap (again). Maybe, but one man’s sexual appetite can dramatically effect history, as with Henry VIII’s lust for Ann Boleyn led to England becoming Protestant. And with Islam, what is unique almost, is this incredible obsession with womens’ lives, which goes back to Muhammad, as he struggles in old age to keep the reigns on his harem.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 6:23 am

  11. Gregory, that video just made my day, and it’s still morning. And you’re right about the wife / slave difference. There doesn’t seem to be any. Except that the slaves had it a little better when it came to living arrangements.

    Watercat, “”the Lard”?? I don’t put out the LOLs often, but OMG LOL.

    Scott, I’m making them in the crockpot next time. They can sit around in sauce all damn day, and I’m pretty sure I won’t be able to resist.

    Quentin George, that’s interesting. I’ve never read anything like that. I’ve read that it was a governor of Alexandria. One of the sites said something about Mohammed having written letters to all these leaders, asking them to convert to Islam. And nobody responded favorably, except the guy who sent them the girl slaves. I mean, who’s to say the Christian governor didn’t keep sex slaves himself? There have been plenty of rotten shithead Christians around in history. Both stories make sense to me for different reasons.

    ixolite, I did notice the wet nurse part, but I didn’t think she was a baby. I thought she might actually be a mother, and that she brought her wet nurse along. I think the reason it came together like that in my head is because of the dialogue. I mean don’t most women stop breast-feeding at, say, 2 years old? 3 max? I don’t think 2 and 3 year olds don’t really talk like that. But, then again, this is transmitted orally, so who knows? I, personally, didn’t take it as her being a child, but you can draw your own conclusions.

    apg, it’s not an awful thought. That’s the reality of it. Mohammed was no spring chicken when he married these pretty young things. He was in his 50s and 60s, and they were half his age. Most of them were renowned as being extraordinarily beautiful.

    And Mohammed was absolutely a jealous man — he ordered his women to wear niqab (1 or 2 eyes showing, and that’s all) in public. He received revelations that nobody could marry his wives after he died. Can you fucking imagine being 17 or 25 and being told you can never be with anyone ever again, for the rest of your life? And, yeah, women are paying for that man’s jealousy and insecurity, even 1400 years later. It’s disgusting.

    kafirgirl

    August 6, 2008 at 8:17 am

  12. I think ure right Kafira, he set a terrible precedent. I think it made a bad situation worse also, cos like look at the Hejaz, it’s fucking bleak, like volcanic, ever so barren, like “Death Valley,” for Americans…. so what was the population density? It must have been tiny and ever so hard to find a woman! Slaves, wars and cousin marriage partly solve it, but women are a commodity, as scarce as water, which was also a source of conflict. So Muhammad was a product of his environment, he finally got access to women- and went overboard in a mad sexual splurge. Only his excesses set a precedent for not breaking down enviromentally defined issues with gender, he magnified them with devestating results. To try and apply this stuff to urbanized societies would be both unnecessary and disastrous-yet this is what Islamists are trying to do in crowded cities like Karachi-and the result is street harassement and worse. I think it’s a complex interplay at work, but it’s also pitiful, the link is the desert itself and how it must have shaped Muhammad’s psyche. But yes, it’s something we are all paying for now.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 8:45 am

  13. apg wrote: Now am i talking crap (again)

    Absolutely not. The gender oppression brought about by Muhammad has been horrible and has endured the centuries. I’m not saying other cultures/religions haven’t oppressed women, but Islam by far seems to be the worst. I used to think that we should try to help women in Islam, but now I think they must want help first. Muslim women will be emancipated only when they want it and revolt.

    I started watching a program on National Geographic (or one of those “educational” channels) last night. Within the first 2 minutes it said Muhammad received his revelations nearly 1500 years ago (that is nearly 100 years off — so much for fact checking and I wonder how accurate the rest of the program will be) and shortly after that a woman in a hijab was talking about how Islam elevates the status of women and how important the Islamic dress codes are for women, etc. Made me sad and I stopped watching. I might try to continue another time.

    Michael

    August 6, 2008 at 8:54 am

  14. You said Karachi and street harassment, so I have to share a story that’s both disturbed and made me laugh for years. I went to Karachi when I was 21ish, and I thought it would be cool to take a train from Karachi to Lahore. I thought it would be all romantic, poetic, seeing the country side in a beat-up old Pakistani train, taking 2 days to get up there.

    The train stopped in a small town, and it started slowly leaving. I stood at the door, looking out (totally not safe, I’m dumb). There was this man — probably no older than 20 — standing 15 feet away, flat out staring at me.

    And then he started walking with the train. And then he started lightly jogging with the train. And then flat our running. And then I realized that he was running with the train, staring at me, jerking off.

    I slammed the gate and ran back to my cabin. The person I was with explained that it was because I was wearing jeans with a t-shirt that didn’t cover my crotch. “They’re not used to seeing that.” Um, used to seeing what, exactly? They don’t realize that a woman’s legs end at some point? And, hell, it’s not like I was wearing ass-baring chaps or something. They were plain old Levis.

    Sexual repression. It’s a fucking horrible thing.

    kafirgirl

    August 6, 2008 at 8:58 am

  15. Oh gawd Kafira it makes me ashamed to be from u know….. Pakistan, but anyhow. I bet u just felt angered as much by how pathetically desperate those guys are. For me, like u know, i had a bad experience in Arabi country X when i was 15 which led to me first mental breakdown, and as i was a niqabi at the time i get disgusted when i hear the kind of “excuse” that ure Levi’s had something to do with it, er sorry, it’s the extreme sexual repression men suffer in Muslim countries as a result of our (former) religion that makes sexualization of almost everything we do- inevitable. This results in more screwing down on the basic freedoms of Muslim women-which in turn results in more repression and more thus harassement, cos Islam feeds off of sexual crisis and fear. The more repressed men get- the more religious they become as the system goes into meltdown. What we now have therefore is a vicious cycle, and the whole idea that u can take 7th century desert morality and misapply it to modern urban areas means public acts of lewdness are part of the culture.
    I don’t know if this makes much sense, but it’s smarter than blaming Kafira’s jeans! But really, the harassement and stuff it can get u very very sick, the staring, following, hissing u out and then there’s other stuff too, anyhow, blogs like this allow us to put it into perspective cos me, i used to blame meself. Now i realize that if i am getting followed by guys even when i am encased in two tons of Chrysler chrome with tinted black windows- then niqabi and hijab apart- there’s nothing we can do to stop harassement, except be too scared to go out the house.But then what about women who have to go out… to work, or to the shop? Muslim women need mass action campaigns like Ghandi did, KG- that’s what we need maybe.
    Michael, Muslim women need help, but it’s help in rasising our feminist consciousness. Most Muslim women are male orientated and our feminist awareness is low. What we need is support for planned families, literacy and economic emancipation as well as legal equality which we can never get under the Sharia’. To say we don’t want help is like saying someone in a blackened out room doesn’t want to live in the light- but hey, maybe we don’t know there’s a bulb? The bulb is feminism, show Muslim women what feminism is and we can do the rest ourselves.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 9:50 am

  16. How many dead babies does it take to paint a wall?

    It depends on how hard you throw them …

    Alex

    August 6, 2008 at 9:58 am

  17. No way related to KG’s post or APG’s comments, but I think muslim women are hot. I come from Hyd, India and not many wear burkha (hijab) over there, except in some corners of the city where almost everyone wears burkha. that reminds me of nikhas (marriages) and the food.. mann i am hungry.

    @APG – “Liberal democracy in the Muslim world is the answer,” – sounds soo much like the reason US went into Iraq.

    I agree with you, though. Liberal democracy should come from the people themselves. It should not be imposed. IMHO. As you said a Gandhi type movement for the ladies of Islam, but I don’t see that happening. I dont know now but a while ago, I thought Turkey and Pak were much liberal versions of Islam. has this changed?

    Shashi

    August 6, 2008 at 10:09 am

  18. Shashi, is there anything liberal about democracy in Iraq? By definition, liberal democracy can only come from within cos the process of absorbing liberal concepts like tolerance and freedom of expression and creating liberal institutions requires transition. Education and female empowerment are the key, not Pentagon bombs.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 10:24 am

  19. APG – I know and agree. I was talking specifically about ‘getting democracy to the middle east’ part. I believe, Freedom and Peace cannot be propagated with bombs.

    Shashi

    August 6, 2008 at 10:41 am

  20. apg:

    I absolutely agree with you that Muslim women (and even non-Muslim, but perhaps not as direly so) need help. I just don’t know how to help without it being seen as intrusive and forced upon them and breeding resentment (in women and men). That’s why I think the women have to want it first and then we can help. I could be wrong, but that’s just my current belief.

    Michael

    August 6, 2008 at 10:53 am

  21. Shashi, Muslim women are hot? Meaning what? And u rate us up with the food? Study what i was writing about feminism cos Muslim women (like all women), don’t exist to be objectified. I doubt very much that Muslim women are any ‘hotter’ than their Hindu, Parsee, Jain or Sikh sisters in citizenship. Sad. Very sad. I worry the way Indian men project outwards into the neighbouring religious community-where naturally- all the ‘hotties’ reside, ‘hot’ being a western idea that doesn’t apply to ‘our girls’. Muslim men for their part probably find the Hindu girls equally “hot.” There is a word for all of this, it’s called- communalism.
    See what a load of nonesense religion is.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 10:59 am

  22. Mike, u can help by supporting people like Ayaan, Irshad Manji and organizations in Muslim countries like WAF and RAWA.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 11:01 am

  23. “For those who don’t know, a eunuch was a castrated man(?)-slave. No joke.”

    They even have a special place in heaven!

    “His property. How fucked up is that? Man, slavery is depressing.”

    For whom? Not for the master.

    “God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.”

    Seems to equal Free Parking.

    GAD

    August 6, 2008 at 11:36 am

  24. APG – I am sorry. I did not mean to quantify any ‘hotness’ based on religion. I am 100% sure that men do not think about religion when they see a good looking girl.

    I did not rate women with food. i said Hyd reminds me of nikhas and the awesomest food. is that wrong?

    Shashi

    August 6, 2008 at 11:41 am

  25. I think you’ll like port tenderloin the best. It’s the only cut of pork I like. Make a nice spice rub with lots of paprika and oregano… and just put it in the oven. Make sure you have a meat thermometer tho.

    PS this was the funniest post of yours I’ve read so far. Dead baby jokes really pushed it over from “funny” to “damn that was funny.”

    Alice

    August 6, 2008 at 11:49 am

  26. Hyderabadi halima is pretty awesome Shashi. I have never been to Andrah, but i went to school in the Gulf with a Hyeradadi Muslima from “Barrghass,” which i think must be very religious, cos she was really devout (but i beat her in the Qu’ranic recital competition at our school in 1997 ha ha ha).
    I think ure totally wrong when u say men don’t think about religion when they objectify women, sadly they do, believe me, i know, having been called a
    “daughter of a Qadiani wh***,” often enough. I used to blog in Urdu and as soon as me background comes up, me Muhajir ethnicity or me Ahmadi mum- both Muhajir and Ahmadi are soon followed by a slut shaming mysogonyst slur.
    Sorry, but in India, religion, caste, it all plays a part. But to hear that sort of stuff, and i heard sexist insults fused with religion all the time, “Paki Muslim cow,” “F***** Muslim dwarf,” “Muslim slag,” etc etc it hurts to some extent. In Karachi I got called a “Qadiani rundee,” right to me face by me dad’s sunni relatives and that’s despite being raised as a Sunni. Shashi, this is our problem as desis, really it is and desi men do it all the time, without even realizing it.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 12:05 pm

  27. Oh and one more about eunuchs, in Pakistan u will see these gorgeous looking Bollywood types flitting around in certain areas, all flashing eyes, shimmer, and perfect figures. Hmmm, a little too perfect actually, they are Hijras, transvestite guys who volunteer to have themselves castrated by their guru before joining a commune of dancers, entertainers and whatever else goes on the side. But yes, they are absolutely gorgeous and though they are bitchy if a woman looks at them, they warm up and will chat. Odd, topsy turvy place the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 12:12 pm

  28. Shashi made a random comment that he prefaced by saying it was unrelated about finding middle eastern women attractive. This is really nothing he should be chastised about and saying this is somehow sexist objectification is stupid. He has every right to express attraction just as much as any woman has a right to say they find Asian men hot or any similar comment. It’s the feminism that says women are not objects therefore you can’t talk about how attracted you are to someone and similar statements that gives feminism a bad appearance in the eyes of many people. I am all for womens’ rights, but what that means is giving women all the rights and responsibilities of men until there is no legal distinction between the genders, not going back to prudish 1950s definitions of what is acceptable to say.

    Archaneus

    August 6, 2008 at 12:15 pm

  29. I don’t think i chastised him at all, what i said was express interest, but don’t objectify and definetly don’t fetishisize. And why couch it in religious terms? Why specifically Muslim women? How are WE different? Muslim women are not mindless monsters out to take over the world or ‘hot Paki babes’. So why fetishisize- which is what u are doing when u say that specifically Muslim women are ‘hot’.
    As a Pakistani woman, yes there have been men who have complimented me in a way that negates me as a person by focusing on me ethnicity. Me personally, I just don’t want to hear it and don’t welcome it and see it as being linked to western orientalism, which is inherently sexist, with sexist stereotypes soon degrading into racist ones, i.e. the repressed Muslima looking for a white man to show her ‘real love’.
    Communalism and sexism in India go hand in hand, which is what i was really at with Shashi, Indian communalism. You can overcome communalism if you keep fantasizing about those “Muslim” girls, can u?
    It is a very foolish and grave mistake that there is some natural affinity between women who reject Islam and protective non Muslim men “Who will treat us right,” a presumption that is itself sexist; We can stand on our own two feet thanks.
    Express affection, cool, but leave religion and race out of it, cos otherwise it’s negating the individual.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 12:41 pm

  30. Meh, he thinks the Muslim girls in his area are hot. What’s so wrong with that? It’s no different than why I say I find nerdy Jewish guys hot (Ira Glass, be still my beating heart). I don’t think that’s offensive. I also don’t think it’s offensive if someone says he finds Asian chicks hot. And it also doesn’t bother me when people say I look “exotic.” They’re focusing on my ethnicity, but it’s not exactly in a negative way. Know what I mean?

    Maybe that’s just me. I don’t like having to tip toe around whatever it is I’m trying to say. That’s just my 2 cents.

    kafirgirl

    August 6, 2008 at 1:02 pm

  31. P.S. Muslim marriage laws in the blogosphere, ya’ll: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=68074

    Be warned that it’s extremely right wingy. But the Saudi cleric is talking about Aisha being 6.

    Courtesy of Dave, whose blog address makes me crack the fuck up. (Thanks, Dave!)

    kafirgirl

    August 6, 2008 at 1:10 pm

  32. Kafir Girl, i think we look at it from our own backgrounds and in America i think saying Korean girls are hot etc is probably very innocuous. But Shashi is from Hyderabad where there is a strong communal divide and sexualizing another religious community is probably not the best way to go to reduce tensions where let’s be honest here-it’s not welcome. Now that kind of ‘interest’ is sort of puzzling to me anyhow… cos how can u be interested in someone and yet undercut that interest by focusing only on their religion-race? But yes, sure, people got a right to indulge, but in India… it would be like a white guy in Alabama blurting out, “Darn those thar black women are HOT.” Now here, this is less acceptable, yes? Why? Cos of racial communalism which such objectifying is reinforcing-not breaking down. So even in the US, we got issues here.
    For me, all i know Kafir Girl is that raised in the Gulf- being desi was the last thing i wanted Arabs to know about me, I was niqabi and they would have exploited me non Arab ethnicity to basically hit on me (or worse), which is why Pakistani families in the Gulf comply with these stupid Arab dress codes. I mean i have been in nightclubs also, in London, and considered an easy pull by a certain kind of guy who has hit on me cos of me ethnicity and when i haven’t played the ‘role’, i have been called a “Paki blah blah blah. I have experienced this religious tarring in 3 places, the Gulf, the UK and Pakistan, where, one thing u might know, is that Ahmadi girls in particular are tagetted for abuse, as is being known as a “British” Pakistani, so I just see the crappy side of all this somehow. I speak for meself, no one else, that’s just me own reality, i am not from California or somewhere chilled like that, if i was, i might view it like u guys maybe.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 1:19 pm

  33. I totally get what you’re saying apg, it’s just that he’s not yelling it out of his bedroom window at some passing girls. He’s saying it on this blog. I think context matters.

    kafirgirl

    August 6, 2008 at 1:22 pm

  34. APG – “Shashi is from Hyderabad where there is a strong communal divide” .. err? This is only in a few quarters of the city (called the Old City). In the rest of the Metro, it ain’t no matter. A decade earlier there were a few riots, as always instigated by politicians, but now-a-days no one has the time or the need to do that. What I am trying to say is that, there is no strong communal divide. And this is coming from a true pacca Hyderabadi. :)

    Shashi

    August 6, 2008 at 1:34 pm

  35. KG – “And it also doesn’t bother me when people say I look “exotic.””

    Pics or it didn’t happen..

    Shashi

    August 6, 2008 at 1:35 pm

  36. Shashi, you want me to die? P.S. You don’t have to be super brown to be considered exotic by a bunch of middle Americans. Seriously.

    P.P.S. High five to being Hydro! My dad’s family is from Hbad.

    kafirgirl

    August 6, 2008 at 1:37 pm

  37. Guys, u know there is the Hyderabad in Upper Sindh and the one in Andra Pradesh, i thought Shashi was from Andra.
    Now the one in Sindh, sorry to say this, but me uncle was killed there in 1994 by the Rangers, he was MQM. Oh man, i am just so Pakistani about stuff, i got to just put it all behind me.
    Shashi, i just got to ask…… is it our Sindhi Hyderabad or the one in Andra Pradesh ure from?

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 1:42 pm

  38. Kafirgirl and everyone else:

    This is a tangentially-related link that I thought I’d share: http://www.unscrewingtheinscrutable.com/node/2002

    Gregory

    August 6, 2008 at 1:48 pm

  39. apg: I lived in Alabama for a while and there were some “hot” black gals there. I even said it, too, but not quite the way you stated it. :-) I didn’t go molest them or call them derogatory names or anything, though (or any other gals). I was nice (I think). Basically, there are “hot” gals (and guys) all over the planet, from all cultures, and with all skin hues.

    You mentioned Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I think she is wonderful. I have two books by her and I think she is working on another, which I’ll get when it comes out. I love watching her give speeches or be interviewed, too.

    I don’t follow Irshad Manji much, though. I know she is reform-minded, but I’m not quite convinced Islam can be reformed. Certainly not in my lifetime.

    Michael

    August 6, 2008 at 1:54 pm

  40. Check out Irshad Manji’s web site, seriously, KG may well have linked to it. Ayaan is wonderful Michael, really she is, though if u have the means u might want to contribute to her safety fund, or just keep listening in. She was on CNN with Fareed Zakaria last Sunday, she thinks Muslims can reform relatively quickly, like a few decades, but she refused to put a time line on it. But get this, reform can happen, but it’s dependent on freedom of expression, so if apostates and dissidents are blogging in terror, that doesn’t bode well for anyone’s chances.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 2:05 pm

  41. APG – I am from Hyd, Andhra Pradesh. Or as they say Hyderabad, Deccan.

    @KG – Your dad’s from Hyd, Deccan or Hyd, Sindh?
    and No… I dont wnat you to get killed or anything, i would miss your blog..

    Shashi

    August 6, 2008 at 2:05 pm

  42. Shashi, cool, will u take me for a spin round Charminar Gate? Seriosuly, i am glad to hear things are great in Hyderabad, it’s just i remember those 19 bombs last August, 42 dead, it’s horrible, like the Makkah Masjid thing, it got huge headlines in the Pakistani press, that’s what stuck in me mind with communalism.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 2:08 pm

  43. “The Prophet raised his hand to pat her so that she might become tranquil.”

    That seems creepy and there’s no mention of her being hysterical. Are you sure is wasn’t supposed to read like this:

    The Prophet raised his hand to “pat” her so that she might become tranquil.

    Because that’s the only way the rest of it makes sense

    he asks, she refuses, he pats her (no, your honor, I swear I wasn’t beating her. Just … patting. To make her tranquil like a horse.), she begs for mercy, he grants it but has to give her clean clothes to go home in on account of all the evidence left on the set she wore over. It also explains why she flinches the next time he reaches for her.

    geniusofevil

    August 6, 2008 at 2:13 pm

  44. Shashi, Sindh all the way. So I say I’m 1/2 Hydro. I don’t wanna die either. Think I’ll leave my face out of it!

    geniusofevil, my sentiments exactly. Nobody says he “raises his hand” to console someone. Which is why someone is lying. Either the translator is lying. Or the people who used the example to show that Mohammed beat another women are lying (um, once is bad enough for me, thanks).

    Anyway, I wasn’t really sure what to make of it. The whole thing is super shady, so I’m staying out of it. Unless a native Arabic speaker wants to find the original Arabic text and translate it for me.

    But even then, how do we know that someone along the way didn’t get a little queasy and change it in the Arabic itself?

    ….my head just exploded.

    kafirgirl

    August 6, 2008 at 2:46 pm

  45. Gregory, I just read that. Um, has Denise Spellberg read the hadith? That shit is chock fucking full of the nasty, dirty shit. There’s pleny of soft core porn in there. Dumbasses.

    Edit: you know what? The more I think about it, the more pissed I get. Geniusofevil posted this link about the whole fiasco (thanks, GOE!), and I’m fucking fuming. They want the writer to apologize? The fuck?? It’s fiction.

    Sherry Jones got a $100k advance for the project. I hope she uses some of that money to publish the book herself. Shit, even if it’s in PDF format, available for download.

    kafirgirl

    August 6, 2008 at 2:50 pm

  46. @APG – The bomb blasts at Mecca Masjid and other places were done to instigate communal riots, but thankfully, good sense prevailed and nothing of that sort happened.
    Sure, I will take you for a spin at Charminar. Then we’ll go and have some tea at the Blue Sea restaurant – the best tea in the galaxy. :)

    @KG – Half hyderabadi.

    Mo known as The Prophet during his time itself, right? So how did people start believing in him? I mean most of the stuff is plain horse shit right? I mean how as he able to convince others that he was the Prophet? I say a lot of crap, but no one believes me.. how was Mo able to fool so many people?

    Shashi

    August 6, 2008 at 3:16 pm

  47. Shashi, i know, it’s from outside of India, this is what they are doing to try to stir up stuff, i got relatives in Mumbai and Karachi so i know how bad it is, it’s just dakoits, good thing is nowadays people are not going to fall for it and just blame their neighbors, no, blame those responsible, if it’s ISI, Lashkar, whoever, that’s what i say to Muslims in India- DON’T blame ure Hindu or Sikh neighbours, cos ure right, it’s a game to play with us. So I am glad with all me heart that Hyderabad, Bangalore,Mumbai really, u can say they are looking forward to a bright future. As a Muhajir- Pakistani, but with maternal roots in Patna, that makes me happy.

    That book with Randomn House, it’s pathetic, they are just treating Muslims like kids, appeasing the extremists, while denying the Muslim masses freedom of intellect. This is why we are 500 years behind, cos one man is beyond criticism, screw that. No criticism- means no reform and that means -no progress. We’re going nowhere until we can say whatever we like- without fear, until the right to chop off me head, or anyone’s head for writing something, is gone, this stigma on us as a civilization. And who plays up to it… fucking Randomn House.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 3:31 pm

  48. Shashi, how do cult leaders get followers? They seem like fucking lunatics to anyone who has some common sense, and yet, somehow, they manage to get a bunch of people to hole up in a cave with them or whatever. They’re charismatic, they’re fantastic liars, and they’re crazy enough to actually believe the shit they’re spewing.

    kafirgirl

    August 6, 2008 at 3:33 pm

  49. and it’s only cults that forbid any criticism of a leader. Mo reminds me of a David Koresh, u know the Waco loon, same psyche.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 3:44 pm

  50. Hey All –

    Objectifying women is all about defining them as other. That’s why it is often doubly disturbing if you are saying that another feature that defines a woman as “other” is what makes her appealing. Otherness is what allows us to treat some people as less human than those we identfy with. I hope that that made sense. If you are looking at a woman of a different ethnicity and thinking about how attractive she is as an individual human being, that is quite different. It conveys that you value her as an equal person.

    PS The trick with pork is definitly cooking it low and slow. (Low temps for a long time) It will be flavorful and succulent.

    Robin

    August 6, 2008 at 4:44 pm

  51. Robin, you made my mouth water. I’m doing it — crock pot, here I come.

    kafirgirl

    August 6, 2008 at 4:45 pm

  52. Exactly Robin, which is why i kept stressing the whole thing about individuality. You are making perfect sense to me, anyhow, i couldn’t have put it any better myself.

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 4:55 pm

  53. all good things come to a end, another day in rehab finished and time to switch off me computer play, take me meds and set me bed up.
    Thanks Kafira cos u are a great host, like always.
    Ok, goodnight, bye bye everyone

    jasmine

    August 6, 2008 at 5:04 pm

  54. I’m reading a book on the Mormons, and here’s god talking c 1860 …

    “…and if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him: therefore he is justified. … and I command mine handmaid Emma Smith to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to no one else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the lord…”

    1981: A woman is ordered unexpectedly to be married off, she begs time to go in another room to think about it, in a few minutes somebody comes in and says Uncle Roy’s had a revelation from god and her salvation rests on coming back out for the ceremony.

    1200 years later; still god, still an asshole… still the same old shit.

    watercat

    August 6, 2008 at 5:28 pm

  55. Hi Kafirgirl, of course what you say is true, indeed it was another Copt named Cyril who led the lynching of Hypatia in the third century AD, however the implication is that the two Coptic women sent to the Arabs were fairly well off, and if they were to be given away to a group, it would more likely been a major power of the time, ie Persia. Also considering the era, while I could by a lay Christian giving a Christian to a Muslim, I don’t quite buy it done by an Archbishop (which is what a Patriarch is).

    The alleged letters sent out asking for converts is also interesting in that there is no record outside of Islamic tradition that it happened. At the time of these alleged letters, we have very good records (particularly of the Sassanid-Byzantine wars) and no letter is mentioned by either Roman, Armenian, Georgian, Syriac or Persian records, leading most historians to conclude them to be another historical fabrication, most likely by later Muslims to over-emphasise the importance of their religion in its early days.

    In fact, it has led some scholars to doubt that a historical figure named Muhammed ever really existed, but that’s for another day…

    Quentin George

    August 6, 2008 at 5:32 pm

  56. watercat, “if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed.” She fell for it, didn’t she? Fuckshitandass. What book are you reading?

    Man, I fucking love how much I learn from other people on this site. High five, Quentin George.

    No evidence of letters, huh? Why am I not surprised by that? Also, I thought about this later on — every time I see a reference to those letters, it implies that Mohammed hand wrote them. Um, I thought he was illiterate? Which is it, damnit??

    It’s kind of sad. There’s so much contradicting information out there — sometimes I can’t tell an ass from a head.

    Anyway, thank you for clarifying all of that.

    kafirgirl

    August 6, 2008 at 6:02 pm

  57. I’m just reading about the FLDS bust in Texas. The quote is from the Doctrine &Covenants, which is like hadith for mormons–except that in this case it is all continuing revelation from god; he’s still talking to them y’unnerstand. Same story: lysergic amides in some weirdo’s brain –> then preaching, patrons, power, pussy. They don’t usually get an army right off like mo is all. (the mormons had a war with the US later on, mostly over polygamy).

    Uhhh, she didn’t ‘fall for it’ any more than mo’s ‘wives’ did; she was raised in the cult, and so isolated that she didn’t even know there were laws against the rape her father (the prophet) had committing since she was seven.
    (ps. I feel bad about that blowup over pedophilia. My family history has issues too, and I let my emotions boil up through my fingers into the keyboard. I shouldn’t have.)

    watercat

    August 6, 2008 at 8:11 pm

  58. Watercat, I meant “fall for it” in a purely facetious way. And now that I read what context that is in, it kinda makes my stomach feel funny. Jeez. How sad.

    Don’t feel bad about the blowup over pedophilia. I think all of us got a little too emotionally charged at what was being said. It’s a touchy subject.

    kafirgirl

    August 6, 2008 at 8:34 pm

  59. hi kafirgirl, love the work you’re doing here.

    i was just wondering, wasnt surah 66 about the honey incident? ibn kathir thinks so, and quotes a Bukhari hadith.

    http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=66&tid=54321

    murtaddman

    August 7, 2008 at 7:19 am

  60. Hey Murtaddman, thank you!

    I’d read about the honey incident before reading about the having-sex-in-another-wife’s-bed thing. Just so everyone else knows what we’re talking about:

    Mohammed was spending too much time with one of his wives (because her honey was delicious). In some stories it’s Maria the Copt, in others it’s Zainab. The only thing the two have in common is that Aisha and Hafsa, the two youngest wives, were totally jealous of both. So the two of them started telling him that the honey gave him bad breath. That’s how he had the revelation about fucking whichever wife he wants and divorcing the rest if they don’t shape up.

    But something about it doesn’t hold up. Read this bit again:

    66:3. And when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a certain matter; and then, when she told of it, and God disclosed that to him, he made known part of it, and turned aside from part; then, when he told her of it, she said, ‘Who told thee this?’ He said, ‘I was told of it by the All-knowing, the All-aware.’

    In the honey incident, the math doesn’t even add up. This verse is about one of his wives. The honey story features two of his wives.

    And in the honey story, two of them conspired against him — they made allegations against him. The Quran verse doesn’t say anything about that. In the honey story, he didn’t confide anything to anyone. They told him his breath stank because of the honey, because they were jealous of the honeymaking wife.

    Also, in the Quran verse, he actively tells ONE of his wives something; note the use of the word confided, as if it’s a secret. Straight from the verse above: “and then, when she told of it”. She didn’t keep the secret.

    Plus there’s that bit about why would you forbid yourself the pleasure God has made lawful for you. That’s referring to honey eating? Eh. Call me cynical, but I think not.

    It just reeks of apologetics. And the more I read about both sides of that story, the more I became convinced that the honey story’s connection to surah 66 is an apologetic fabrication.

    See, it’s downright embarrassing to have a prophet lusting after his Christian slave girl like that. So what can you do? You can spin it. Oh, he wasn’t there fucking her brains out every night. He was there because she made good honey, and, man, did he love honey! It’s a great way to take something R-rated and knock it down to PG, while still retaining the basic story. Ta-da! The magic of a cover-up!

    Hope that helped. There are tons of articles floating around on the internetz that can detail it further for you.

    P.S. Do people even “make” honey? I thought bees made honey and people “collected” it. i’ll ask the honey people at the farmer’s market tomorrow because you never know when it might come up in Trivial Pursuit.

    P.P.S. Wow, that comment was like a post on its own. And I haven’t even had coffee yet.

    kafirgirl

    August 7, 2008 at 8:28 am

  61. Oh, and to confuse matters further, the woman he had sex with in another wife’s bed may not have been Maria the Copt at all. It may have been one of the wives’ slavegirls, also named Maria. You can legally have sex with your own slavegirls (“what your right hand possesses”), but you can’t have sex with your wife’s slavegirls, unless she gives you permission.

    So Hafsa might have busted him fucking one of the wives’ slavegirls. Without permission. On a wife’s bed.

    Niiiiiice.

    kafirgirl

    August 7, 2008 at 8:36 am

  62. wow.. i mean seriously WOW. From what I have read.. I mean from what you posted about the first 7 chaps, I only thing I could gather was how God wanted Mo to be. I mean nothing about the world or anything.. just plain one-on-one. Mo want to fuck someone else’s wife whom he saw nekkid.. God tells he to do it. He wants to have some honey and voila! God tells he to go have it. I wish I had such a personal God. Dang…

    Shashi

    August 7, 2008 at 8:44 am

  63. There was a great story today on WYPR (local NPR affiliate) in Baltimore about Muslim women in America. If you get a chance, please give it a listen:
    http://stream.publicbroadcasting.net/production/mp3/wypr/local-wypr-740718.mp3

    At first, it sounds like it is just a story about a homeless shelter. Then you realize it is about black Muslim men in America using their religion to have sex with whomever they want while not actually providing for them.

    Enjoy!

    incunabulum

    August 7, 2008 at 9:51 am

  64. Is lesbianism forbidden in the Qu’ran? Seriously.
    Any ideas guys? I have searched the book meself and never been able to find a single aya where it is condemned. And to me, that’s strange, given that the Qu’ran (like Muslim men), is obsessively, u might say, even morbidly concerned with the intimiate affairs of women.
    So why the deafening silence?
    I think it’s cos there was no need to bring it up, simple as that, the Qu’ran came down simply according to Mo’s needs.
    Now u can bet however if Maria the Copt and the girl from the Bani Jauna were both getting it on and asked Mo to get the hell out- cos we’re busy right now, tons of advice would have been pouring down from Allah.
    “Lo, truly an abomination it is in the site of your Lord for that which is of one breath and cut from one rib to slide in the manner of shameless creatures. Verily, for that is what they are, no wonder such vile devils shall be incapable of issue. And the Messenger whom they refuted in their sin, shall truly witness those who will be brought to account, dragged by their hair before their Lord. Let them stand next to each other on the day of judgement, as they lay together and let them whisper in fear, as they lusted in shame, for verily, a burning hell fire has been prepared.”
    Hey, this is easy! Look, Quranic stuff, hey, I CAN DO IT (and it’s fun).

    Safe then to assume that Mo’s wives were not queer or bi even.
    U have to go to Sahi Muslim’s “Book of Menstruation,” a collection of hadith puerile patriarchal clap trap on when and when not women are “impure,” and yet even here, among so much mysogonyst detail, the refernce to lesbianism is oblique- it’s just, “women should not see each other.”
    Huh, so what if we switch the light out then?

    jasmine

    August 7, 2008 at 11:45 am

  65. APG,

    4:15. If any of your women is guilty of unnatural offence, bring four of your witnesses to give evidence; if they testify against them, retain them in the houses until death overtakes them or God provides some other way for them.

    Unnatural offense. It doesn’t explicitly state lesbianism, but it definitely implies it. Especially when it follows up that verse with this:

    4:16. If two (men) among you are guilty of such acts then punish both of them. But if they repent and reform, let them be, for God accepts repentance and is merciful.

    There’s definitely more of an ewwwww-lets-kill-them reaction against gay men than against lesbians. I’m honestly not sure why, unless it’s because even back then lesbians were titillating whereas gay men were “gross!”

    Edit: you know, it may not talk about lesbians as much because this book is definitely talking directly to men. Women are communicated to by proxy. Mohammed, tell the women blahblahblah. Just a thought.

    kafirgirl

    August 7, 2008 at 11:56 am

  66. “There’s definitely more of an ewwwww-lets-kill-them reaction against gay men than against lesbians. I’m honestly not sure why, unless it’s because even back then lesbians were titillating whereas gay men were “gross!””

    Some things never change ;)

    In the OT I don’t think it says anything about lesbians. In the NT Paul does but then Paul hates all sex.

    GAD

    August 7, 2008 at 12:24 pm

  67. Ok, i’m with u, so we’re on the Girls Sura 4 at 4.15.
    Shit.Islam is really frustrating cos it’s so ambigious and this is a case in point cos i just read Sura al Nisa (Girls) in me Urdu translation and it’s saying that 4.15 it’s about illict relations with women and men for which the punishment given here is overridden by Sura Al Nur which is stonings and lashings.
    Now that’s a hadd punishment (ok, that means mandatory), but lesbianism is only ta’zeer (discretionary) punishment, so in me own Qu’ran Kaffir Girl, it’s not actually talking about lesbianism, or, this is how it is being presented, it’s adultery.

    Ok, let’s look in a English Qu’ran, oh hell, it’s different again, u got “unnatural offence”.
    But I got……, “illegal sexual intercourse.” The rest is the same.
    So is 4.15 “unnatural offence,” or is it- “illegal sexual intercourse.”
    See, “illegal sexual intercourse,” can not even be lesbianism… here’s why.
    a) Lesbianism isn’t classed as zina in Islam (zina is unlawful sex), so lesbianism isn’t illegal exactly cos in Islam it takes the presence of a cock apparently for real sex to take place. No cock- no crime, seriously, that’s the rationale- and any punishment is discretionary.
    b) The original punishment for the “crime” in 4.15 of staying in ure house until u die was changed to the more lethal lashings and stonings in Sura Al Nurr- which is for adultery, not lesbianism of course.

    On balance it seems that 4.15 Kafira, relates to heterosexual intercourse.
    Still, now where would u get four witnesses? I know, if u were making a porn movie in California maybe.
    There’s a horrible downside to the 4 witnesses rule as Pakistani women know all too well…… if u can’t find 4 witnesses to prove u were raped- no case.

    jasmine

    August 7, 2008 at 12:56 pm

  68. I think the Qu’ran says little about lesbianism as such, and Muslim society itself is ambigious. But get this, and this is what i know and firmly believe also (no one needs to believe me if they don’t want)- no woman is allowed to live openly as a lesbian in any Muslim country and cry off out of marriage- lesbians are forced into marriage with men- huh, some tolerance that is.
    But there’s worse, cos while many girls go through a phase of u know….. but for others it’s a life choice. Pushed into marriages they don’t want they can’t cope with suicide is the only option.
    The huge numbers of murdered wives in Pakistan isn’t just about burnt roti and the husband getting angry, it’s about, in part, essentially lesbian women bullied by family and pushed into unwanted marital unions they can’t deal with and many, believe me, many are ending up dead. I am writing this cos i do not want American friends to think that lesbian women in Islam are getting some kind of free pass, cos I KNOW this is not the case. Every single word in that fucking book Kafira is disecting works against such women.

    jasmine

    August 7, 2008 at 1:56 pm

  69. The four witnesses is stupid, where and how are the witnesses supposed to come about? Many women get raped in pakistan…the worst – gang rape, I know this was a long time ago, but there are still places in Pakistan where there is no real reasonable local authority.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/international/asia/28pakistan.html?pagewanted=all

    Actually uderage lesbianism by law isn’t really seen as wrong in western law, well aside from morals. I remember when we got a booklet with all the information we could use for our “future! and it stated the law that men are not allowed to have sex with eachother til a certain age, however it said nothing about women!

    Polygamy is only allowed for men in Islam, which is a bitch! Many muslim pakistani men from the UK have two wives, one in England and one in Pakistan. Worse is when the wives don’t know about it.. It’s still seen as the norm here, even though many muslims here are westernised.

    I heard a horrible story today, my friend told me that from her villiage (sargoda it’s called.. I think) three men (who are highly respectable and in some ways seen as imams) where caught sexually harrassing a boy in the fields. Religion is just a way for people to take advantage of their positions! Has anyone here heard of “peers”, most Sunni’s believe that these “peers” have special powers from god and can heal the sick and etc, many people from my family and friends go to see their “peers” instead of a doctor because they believe they have “Taveez” (cursed).

    Humra

    August 7, 2008 at 4:19 pm

  70. APG @ 64 Lol. You definitely win the challenge of 1:23- write a better surah.
    Re homosexuality; Out of 30 translations I just sorted through, that word’s only used in one. There’s 6 ‘adultery’, 3 ‘whoredom’, and 4 illicit sex. 4 lewdness, 4 indecency, and one each of eight other terms. Of the six that sound like possibly girl-girl action, ;-) “sexual perversity’, ‘the shameful act’, ‘unnatural offense’, five specifically mention either adultery or men in the next verse. Two guys only, Ahmed Ali, and Amatul Rahman Omar, mention two ‘men’ or two ‘males’ in v16; but that could be read I think as MMF sex?
    The one translation that actually uses ‘homosexuality’ says “the enormous deed/atrocious deed/ugly deed/saying/adultery/fornication/homosexuality” (lol) and the one place that mentions two women says “two among you [man & man or man & woman or woman & woman]” I think it’s safe to say those are both editorializing.
    Final verdict? No censure of hot lezbo sex in the Koran: Go for it Girl! ( …..GAHHH. Just before I posted I read #68. Fuck. Yeah. Shit. It’s hard for us in the West to imagine the reality of it. Sigh. Props to you and kafrrgrrl for working against it anyway)

    watercat

    August 7, 2008 at 4:52 pm

  71. Here’s something… Mo started getting ideas about Aisha when she was just 4, apparently, and guess what, initially, even Abu Bakr wasn’t up for it, telling Mo, “It’s not right, u and me are like brothers.”
    But Mo, never takes no, and is so horny, his guys reckon he’s got the strength of 30 normal men all the screwin’ he does.
    So Mo gets his way, Aisha is just 6 and then, mysteriously, her hair starts to fall out in clumps. Mo has to wait… for 3 years, but it’s inevitable. Mo is 53 and Aisha is nine years old.
    You want to know what this leads to? Gulf Arabs trying to fly out of Pakistan- MY COUNTRY- with our children clutching their dolls on PIA flights.
    There was one case with a flight out of Delhi, years back, one cool Indian hostess stood up and basically stopped the plane from taking off.

    jasmine

    August 7, 2008 at 5:45 pm

  72. “There was one case with a flight out of Delhi, years back, one cool Indian hostess stood up and basically stopped the plane from taking off.”

    There was another case – Ameena from hyderabad.

    http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030521/edit.htm#3

    Fucking bastards. I cannot understand how the girls parents can marry off to someone they dont even know in Dubai. It’s like they gave birth to her, raised her until 10 or 11 and then they forget about her. Bastards.

    Shashi

    August 7, 2008 at 6:02 pm

  73. That’s the one, Air India flight yes, her name was Amina, it’s the same one, so it was Hyd, ok. I’m so happy u remember that!
    Shashi, I admire India cos there is awareness in Hindustan that this is a insult and people like that hostess are standing up.
    In Pakistan, for all our carping about how proud and martial we are- no, no one speaks out much, yet in other countries it would be a outcry.
    It isn’t just economic, no way, it links back to the Sunnah, to what villagers have been told by some old Imam.Now those same people wouldn’t sell their daughters for 2 lakh rupees to go to Bhindi Bazaar as a prostitute, but they would take a “dowry” from some sex tourist Arab who will take the girl away to his country and the question is why? Very simple, our people have been fooled by Islam for a long long time.

    jasmine

    August 7, 2008 at 6:29 pm

  74. All these stories of the women in Mo’s life are sad enough. However, I came across another woman deserves recognition, even though she was never part of Mo’s harum. Apparently a poetess named Asma bint Marwan didn’t think Islam was all that great and wrote couplets to her fellow Meccan’s on their folly in trusting a stranger who killed his own people. The following poem of Asma was quoted in Ibn Warraq’s “Why I Am Not a Muslim”:

    Fucked man of Malik and of Nabit
    And of Aws, fucked men of Khazraj
    You obey a stranger who does not belong among you
    Who is not of Murad, nor of Madh’hij
    Do you, when you own chiefs have been murdered, put your hope in him
    Like men greedy for meal soup when it is cooking?
    Is there no man of honour who will take advantage of an unguarded moment
    And cut off the gull’s hopes?

    Mo didn’t think much of her, so he prayed for someone to kill her. A zealous supporter came to the rescue, supposedly slaying her while she slept with her children next to her.

    I vote her into the Courageous Women Hall of Fame.

    a4atheist

    August 7, 2008 at 9:10 pm

  75. a4atheist, I just read about her myself. Sad, huh? And even 1400 years later you can’t say jackshit about the motherfucker without fear of ending up like poor Asma.

    kafirgirl

    August 7, 2008 at 9:31 pm

  76. Hi all. See when u read about Asma, Muslims will claim that it’s a forgery and that the isnad (chain of narrators) is all screwed up. But no, it’s true, we all know it and it fits perfectly with Mo’s psychology. Asma mocked him- so she has to die. Sound familiar…. and i am not just talking Danish cartoons, cos Asma reminds me of that famous reporter on the Munich Chronicle who all through the 1920’s used to mock Hitler. As soon as Hitler got the chance, being a violent narcissist, one of the very first things he did was to murder the guy. And this is the reaction we face as apostates, not reasoned argument-it’s threats, afterall- threats work, or seem to, cos from the first days, right after Asma’s death- conversions increased! And after 911, I remember the same thing, me own brother said it was a good thing- why… cos people were converting to Islam. The terror has always been there and no matter how much Muslims quibble about isnad, denying Mo killed Asma and a old man called Abu ‘Afak, historical fact sets it all in context.
    A terrible example of this is the mass slaughter of the Jewish tribe in a holed up in a quarter of Medina who like many ethnic minorties under tyranny shaken by outside military pressure are in a peculiarly vulnerable position (our own modern history is full of examples). During the siege of Medina, this Jewish tribe (the Bani Quraiza) were on Mo’s suspect list. Sure enough, Gabriel appears to go and ethnically cleanse them in a mopping up operation. Mass graves are dug in Medina’s market area, the captured Arab Jews are brought out in batches and beheaded. The bodies are thrown into the mass graves as the women and children are enslaved. As KG notes above, Rayhanna is captured at this point, her menfolk murdered in cold blood, she is now Mo’s sex slave. What did this Jewish woman really think of Mo? Would Rayhanna have happily converted to Islam. The chances are she had ptsd, was a shaking wreck, think some poor Jewish woman dragged out of Auschwitz and given to some SS officer. The more i think about it, to understand Mo, we got to see it through the eyes of the women in his life. I would love to write a book called, “Rayhanna’s Tale,” maybe i should…. maybe i will.

    jasmine

    August 8, 2008 at 5:54 am

  77. Muhammad broke his own rules and god threatened his wives instead.

    That’s the reason why I had a hard time controlling my laughter whenever a muslim tells me that Muhammad is the greatest man, morally and ethically, to ever walk this earth.

    iskimo

    August 8, 2008 at 2:19 pm

  78. Iskimo, i have seen Muslims in me own family crying over Muhammad’s memory, endless professions of love for him and lived in a house that has tinsely little messages plastered around in Urdu saying, “Muhammad is a mercy for all humanity etc etc.”
    Muslims aren’t being disengious here. I think it’s partly faith and partly what they are exposed to which is always very selective. U also got to remember the key thing…. intellectual scrutiny is impossible, for 1500 years this man has been beyond questioning. Muslims do not have any historical understanding that is not specifically faith based. Their starting point is Muhamad is the Prophet…. if he wasn’t the best of all men, how could he be the Prophet? And if u question that….. can u be a Muslim?

    jasmine

    August 8, 2008 at 3:01 pm

  79. Hey,
    I really liked these two entries, Muhammad was such a player. I guess you already knew about this but just in case: http://www.alislam.org/books/religiousknowledge/sec3.html (information on Muhammad’s wives is towards the bottom).

    Michelle Stone

    August 9, 2008 at 1:46 pm

  80. I agree with you there APG, my family has done things like that too when I went to pakistan, I was pretty young then and found it pathetic at that age, but later on it became a little scary. To cry and beat yourself over a man you had never met never made any sense to me, no matter how “great” they thought he was. Also, many muslims Sunni’s (i don’t know if other muslims do this) actually PRAY for mohammeds soul to God, how laughable is THAT!

    Also: “the Holy Prophet married Saudah to be relieved of domestic worry.” Great reason to marry someone!

    Humra

    August 9, 2008 at 5:46 pm

  81. Hey Michelle, thanks for the link!

    Humra, yeah, I have also seen people get weepy over Mohammed. My grandmothers in particular. I’ve never understood it. He’s fucking dead, people. Get on with life.

    kafirgirl

    August 10, 2008 at 12:44 am

  82. ‘…With the two women al-Muqawqis had sent a eununch, and the latter stayed with them.’

    well, ain’t that some fucked up shit! what good is a eunuch? unless you want a slave that won’t fuck your women, or at least an alto that will sing praises to Mo and shit. this book is like the cirque du soleil minus the makeup. asswiping with pebbles – check, outhouse demons – check, torture and sex – check all over, beeeyotch!!

    Smile, at least Mo doens’t do the R. Kelly shit.

    – or does he…

    DUM DUM DUM…

    Priest

    August 18, 2008 at 10:02 pm

  83. Kaffirgurl. I notice you seemed unsure about the hadith where Mo did something nice.
    Several things to bear in mind.
    1:) His chat-up lines were terrible
    2:) Hitler loved dogs , and probably loved eva braun. Nobodys all bad. Mo was probably a nice chap socially with a few beers inside him.
    3:) And most importantly. 97% of the hadiths bear no resemblence to reality. Even the screwed up, jihady ones. Mo prolly never even met the girl. They are in there to make Mo seem like a 250lb musclebound pwner not the actual reedy, scrawnybeard geek. In 800AD that would have carried weight. Now it reeks of barbarity.

    sweetpityfulmercy

    August 26, 2008 at 6:23 pm

  84. Hey SPM — it wasn’t the story about Mohammed being kind to someone that confused me. It was the fact that certain people were using only parts of it to show how horrible Mohammed was. It’s dishonest to do that and it pissed me off that atheists were doing spreading lies like that. Besides, if you need evidence that Mohammed was an asshat, there are plenty of other hadith out there. Not to mention the Quran itself. That’s all.

    kafirgirl

    August 26, 2008 at 7:32 pm

  85. Greets! Really amazing. keep working!

    bmepain

    August 31, 2008 at 12:40 pm

  86. KG,

    I know you just had a post about how these posts are old and no one’s reading them anymore, but I just did, and I’m sure other new comers to your blog will as well. So please do just post this for posterity.

    Asma bint Marwan was Madinan, not Meccan. She objected to the tribes of Madina following this guy who wasn’t one of them. Muhammad was a Meccan. There is a difference. Also, personally, I think it does her more tribute to put up a more literate rendering of her poem, rather than one with the modern terminology of fuck this and fuck that. She didn’t need to go that route to scare ol’ Mo man. Just being sharp as a tack was enough to get her killed while her babe slept at her breast. Jeezus, this religion is too much. And for those who asked – no Muslims generally don’t know about these things. You really have to dig deep to find this and you’re afraid to do so because they tell you it’ll ruin your faith and that it’s all lies and displeasing to the god you’re trying to score points with. It’s only when your conscience itches at you enough that you start to open your eyes.

    Anyway, her poem:

    I despise Banu Malik and al-Nabit
    and Auf and Banu al-Khazraj.
    You obey a stranger who is none of yours,
    One not of Murad or Madhhij. {1}
    Do you expect good from him after the killing of your chiefs
    Like a hungry man waiting for a cook’s broth?
    Is there no man of pride who would attack him by surprise
    And cut off the hopes of those who expect aught from him?

    Happy To Be Gone

    October 5, 2008 at 3:59 pm


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