KafirGirl

We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

Swimmin’ in Women: Mohammed’s wives and concubines. (Part I)

with 78 comments

Friend X, a really good friend of mine, is a fairly liberal Muslim.  There’s something that’s been eating away at her for a few weeks, and she wanted to talk to me about it.  Friend X recently read about Mohammed’s concubines, and she doesn’t really know what to make of this information.  “He’s supposed to be the role model for all of us.  How the fuck am I supposed to respect him knowing that he had sex slaves?”  How the fuck, indeed.  Friend X and I are going to talk about this stuff at a later date.  I wanted a little time on my own to learn about all of Mohammed’s wives and concubines before we get together to make sense of it.  Thought I’d share it with you guys.

I’m taking a little detour from chapter 7.  This post is going to be all about Mohammed’s leading ladies.  And, woah boy, there are a lot of ‘em.  A lot more than I had even known about.  Most of the stuff we know about them comes from hadith. I think by now, most people know how I feel about those.  They’re hearsay.  Regardless, the vast majority of Muslim accept and believe hadith.  So I’ll look at them the same way I look at the Quran.  (With a raised eyebrow and a shit-eating grin on my face.)  Let’s jump right in and get to it.

Mohammed was around 25 when he married his first wife, Khadija bint Khuwailid.   She was 40 years old at the time.  Whoo!  Cougar! Khadija was a business woman, and she was extremely wealthy — I believe the technical term is filthyfuckingrich.  She had inherited her father’s merchanting business, which, by the way, she operated.  He worked for her.  My kinda lady!

As long as Khadija was alive, Mohammed took no other wives.  A lot of Muslims say this is because he was such a sweet and faithful man.  They’ll argue that all of his other marriages after Khadija’s death were purely for political reasons.  That’s why he didn’t have more than one wife while she was alive.

Know what I think?  I think old homegirl wore the pants in that relationship, and if he had suggested getting another wife, she would have chewed off his balls and spit them in his face.  So he stayed married to only her for about 25 years, until she died.

And, if the hadith are to be believed, he genuinely missed the old broad.  Check this out:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 164:

Narrated ‘Aisha: I did not feel jealous of any of the wives of the Prophet as much as I did of Khadija (although) she died before he married me, for I often heard him mentioning her, and Allah had told him to give her the good tidings that she would have a palace of Qasab (i.e. pipes of precious stones and pearls in Paradise), and whenever he slaughtered a sheep, he would send her women-friends a good share of it.

Aisha bint Abi Bakr, Mohammed’s second wife, was totally the jealous type.  Check this out:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 168:

Narrated ‘Aisha: Once Hala bint Khuwailid, Khadija’s sister, asked the permission of the Prophet to enter. On that, the Prophet remembered the way Khadija used to ask permission, and that upset him. He said, “O Allah! Hala!” So I became jealous and said, “What makes you remember an old woman amongst the old women of Quraish an old woman (with a teethless mouth) of red gums who died long ago, and in whose place Allah has given you somebody better than her?”

In whose place Allah has given you somebody better than her? What a bitch!  I guess I can’t really hold it against her, though.  She was, after all, just a teenager when she said that shit.  Yup, teenager.  Mohammed married Aisha approximately 3 years after Khadija died.  He was around 53 years old.  She was 6.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88:

Narrated ‘Ursa:

The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:

Narrated Hisham’s father:

Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

He married her when she was six, and they consummated the marriage when she was nine years old.  Know what I was doing when I was nine?  Going to school and running around with my siblings.  Know what I wasn’t doing when I was nine?  Having sex.  I was too busy being a kid, playing with Barbies.  Then again, it looks like Aisha was, too:

Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5981:

A’isha reported that she used to play with dolls in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereas Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent them to her.

Anyone else getting heart burn?  Yeah?  Take some Pepto, babies, it gets worse and worse.

Whenever I read about Aisha, I can’t stop wondering what the fuck her parents were thinking.  I mean, what could a 53 year old pervert possibly tell someone that would make them hand over their 6 year old daughter?  He said shit like this:

Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5977:

‘A’isha reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: I saw you in a dream for three nights when an angel brought you to me in a silk cloth and he said: Here is your wife, and when I removed (the cloth) from your face, lo, it was yourself, so I said: If this is from Allah, let Him carry it out.

Magic man in the sky told him to do it.  If it’s good enough for him, dadgummit, it’s good enough for Mo!  Now a lot of Muslim apologists say stuff like, “Oh, he didn’t really want to marry her at that age, but God told him to do it for political reasons.  He really needed Aisha’s father to convert to Islam.”

Bullshit.

First off, if God really needed Abu Bakr to convert, why didn’t he just *poof* him into a Muslim?  And secondly, that’s God’s big plan to bring Abu Bakr to the Muslim side?  I don’t have children, but I can tell you this with 110% certainty — any man who said God wanted him to fuck my 9 year old daughter would get a knee to the groin and a fist to the nose.  A marriage proposal for his baby girl is supposed to convert the man to Islam?  I just don’t see it happening.

Here’s a little more about Abu Bakr that might help clear shit up:  he was Mohammed and Khadija’s neighbor.  Abu Bakr and Mo were good friends for years, and in fact, he was one of the very first converts to Islam.  He was also the first convert who was not a member of Mo’s immediate family.  Abu Bakr was one of the first to buy in to the horse manure Mohammed was selling.  He tried to talk one of his wives into converting to Islam, and divorced her when she refused.  His other wife, Aisha’s mother, converted to Islam.  Gee, could the looming threat of a fucking divorce have anything to do with that?

So there you go.  That’s the man who handed over his little girl to a man nearly 9 times her age.  He was convinced that Mohammed was a man of God, and whatever God says goes unless you want to burn in hell.  Sound familiar?  I’m looking at you FLDS.

Anyway, Aisha is considered to be Mohammed’s favorite wife.  (The others probably just weren’t young enough.)  If you’re interested in a pretty detailed and interesting story about how Mohammed received his revelations, check out Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 2127. It’s waaaaay too long to copy and paste here, but I’ll break it down for you real quick:

Mohammed goes to bed with Ayesha, waits for her to fall asleep, leaves and goes to a public area.  She follows him, watches him stand around for a long time and then raise his hand to the sky 3 times (again with the number 3 obsession), and then she runs back and jumps into bed.  He comes home, finds her out of breath, reveals that he’d known all along that she was following him, and then he punches her in the chest.

Let me repeat that, because, holy shit it’s worth repeating:  Mohammed, man of God, punches his adolescent wife on the fucking chest.  Yeah.  Definitely check out the full story.  There’s plenty of easy to find information out there on Aisha and Khadija, so lets move on and talk about some of the other wives who don’t get as much attention.

Next up is Sawda bin’t Zam’a.  Mohammed married her sometime after he married 6 year old Aisha but before she moved in with him at the age of 9.  So she’s technically his 3rd wife so far.  He’d been preaching for about 10 years at the time, and she had been married and divorced before the two of them got together.  She was no spring chicken, and as she grew older, Mohammed found her less and less attractive. There was even talk of divorce.  Sawda gave up her turn spending the night with Mohammed so he could spend an extra night with young Aisha.  That’s how Sawda held their marriage together.  Yeah.  Heart burn, again.

Anyway, that’s about all I can find about Sawda.  I did read somewhere that Aisha called Sawda a big fat lady in a hadith.  Bitch.  (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 318.)

Next up is Umm Salama.  She and her first husband were early converts of Islam.  He was killed in battle, and she was left with four kids to take care of.  Enter Mohammed.  She was about 29 when they married.  According to this site, Umm Salama was a “direct cousin” of Mohammed.  Uh, gross, dude.  Here she is talking about how Mohammed would keep a fast even after having splooged the night before:

Sahih Muslim, Book 006, Number 2456

Sulaiman b. Yasar reported that he asked Umm Salama whether a person (who gets up) in the morning in a state of junub should observe fast. She said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) (at times) got up in the morning in a state of junub, not because of sexual dreams (but on account of intercourse at night), and then observed fast.

Hafsa bint Umar was a widow by the time she turned 18 years old.  How fucked up is that?  Mohammed married her after the Battle of Badr, when she was around 20.  Aisha and Hafsa didn’t get along too well:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 145:

Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:

that ‘Umar entered upon Hafsa and said, “O my daughter! Do not be misled by the manners of her who is proud of her beauty because of the love of Allah’s Apostle for her.” By ‘her’ he meant ‘Aisha. ‘Umar added, “Then I told that to Allah’s Apostle and he smiled (on hearing that).”

Aisha was totally full of herself and thought she was hot shit because Mohammed treated her differently than all the other wives (she was the prepubescent one, after all).  Hafsa’s father told her not to let that bitch walk all over her.  When Mohammed found out about it, he smiled.  He must feel like the belle of the fucking ball having so many women duke it out over him.  Check this out:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 406:

Narrated ‘Aisha:

(the mother of believers) Allah’s Apostle during his fatal ailment said, “Order Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer.” I said, “If Abu Bakr stood at your place (in prayers, the people will not be able to hear him because of his weeping, so order ‘Umar to lead the people in prayer.” He again said, “Order Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer ” Then I said to Hafsa, “Will you say (to the Prophet), ‘If Abu Bakr stood at your place, the people will not be able to hear him be cause of his weeping, so order ‘Umar to lead the people in prayer?” Hafsa did so, whereupon Allah’s Apostle said, “You are like the companions of Joseph (See Qur’an, 12:30-32). Order Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer.” Hafsa then said to me, “I have never received any good from you!”

Aisha got Hafsa in trouble with Mohammed.  And she sounds damn proud of it too.  Ahh the teenage years.  What a great time to not be married to your father’s schizophrenic jackass of a friend.  I can’t totally let Hafsa off the hook either.  Check this shit out from a set of hadith that isn’t as widely accepted as Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari:

Malik Muwatta, Book 43, Number 43.19.14:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Muhammad ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn Sad ibn Zurara that he had heard that Hafsa, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, killed one of her slave-girls who had used sorcery against her. She was a mudabbara. Hafsa gave the order, and she was killed.

The fuck?  Hafsa had one of her slave girls killed for practicing sorcery?  OK, that tells us a couple of things.  First off, Mohammed and his wives owned slaves.  Slaves! They partook in the buying and selling of human beings.  And that’s a-OK with God.  Also, it tells us that these people believed in witchcraft.  I love me some Harry Potter, but come on.  What kind of idiot believes avada kedavra actually works?  And anyway, shouldn’t they have made sure the slave girl wasn’t imperiused or something before they killed her?  Just saying.

Zainab bint Jahsh is a fun story.  She was married to Mohammed’s adopted son, Zaid, and it sounds like she was quite the hottie:

The History of al-Tabari, vol. 8, p. 4.

“One day Muhammad went out looking for Zaid (Mohammed’s adopted son). Now there was a covering of hair cloth over the doorway, but the wind had lifted the covering so that the doorway was uncovered. Zaynab was in her chamber, undressed, and admiration for her entered the heart of the Prophet”.

Mohammed sees his son’s wife nekkid, and suddenly recieves a revelation from God.  God wants Zaid and Zainab to get a divorce.  From now on, it’s no longer forbidden for a man to marry his daughter-in-law, and God wants Mohammed to marry her to serve as an example.  How fucking convenient!  Zaid, of course, being a good little Muslim gave his wife the boot so she could go legally fuck his father.  Check out this Quran verse:

33.37. When you said to him who had been favoured by God and was favoured by you: “Keep your wife to yourself and fear God,” you were hiding something God was about to bring to light, for you had fear of men, though you should fear God more. And when Zaid was through with her, We gave her to you in marriage, so that it may not remain a sin for the faithful (to marry) the wives of their adopted sons when they are through with them. God’s command is to be fulfilled.

When he was through with her. Yeaaaaaah.  So hey, after reading that lovely little bit there, I shared it with Kafir Boy.  We just decided that when I’m through with this little project, we’re going camping and we’re taking the Quran with us.  And we’re not bringing any toilet paper.  I’ll make sure to say a little prayer so that jinns don’t go flying up my ass, and I’ll wipe 3 times with each page — Mohammed would have wanted it that way.

Here’s a hadith from Aisha that pretty much sums it up:

Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3453:

‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: I felt jealous of the women who offered themselves to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Then when Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, revealed this:” You may defer any one of them you wish, and take to yourself any you wish; and if you desire any you have set aside (no sin is chargeable to you)” (xxxiii. 51), I (‘A’isha.) said: It seems to me that your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire.

It seems to me that your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire. Fuckin’ A right, Aisha.  Whatever Mo wanted, Mo got.  And nobody seems suspicious at all of that.

Mohammed married Juwariya bint al-Harith when he was 58.  She was 20.  Are you noticing a pattern here?  She was a total hottie.  Again with the pattern.  The story of how she came to marry Mohammed is really interesting:

Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4292:

Ibn ‘Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi’ inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before m”. ing them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi’ said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.

That’s right:  Mohammed launched a “surprise attack” against Bani Mustaliq while they were grazing their cattle.  They killed any man that tried to fight, and they took the women and children as war booty.  Juwariya was the chief’s daughter, and Mohammed “got” her on that day.  Nice strategy.  Way more efficient than mine.  I “got” my husband when I clubbed him over the head and dragged him by the hair all the way back to my cave.  That shit took hours.

Here’s another hadith that tells you the same thing:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 46, Number 717:

Narrated Ibn Aun:

I wrote a letter to Nafi and Nafi wrote in reply to my letter that the Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day. Nafi said that Ibn ‘Umar had told him the above narration and that Ibn ‘Umar was in that army.

Get this:  Juwariya was already married.  Her husband was killed in that battle. But that night, Mohammed “got” her.  Fuckshitandass.  My brain hurts.

Ramlah bint Abi-Sufyan, aka Umm Habiba, is next in line.  Umm Habiba was a cousin of the caliph Uthman.  She and her first husband were early converts, but he eventually converted to Christianity.  He tried to talk her into converting, too, but she refused.  They divorced.  Mohammed was around 60 years old when he married her.  She was 30.  That’s practically like dating grandma for a man with Mohammed’s tastes, but he did it.  Why?  Probably because he was scared she’d convert to Christianity, too.  Every single Muslim counted in those days.  Plus Mohammed was raking in the war booty — he kept 20% of everything — so he could afford it.

Safiyya bint Huyayy is the 9th woman on this list.  She was another war captive, a 17 year old married girl captured from the Banu Nadir tribe.  Her husband, father and brother were all killed by Mohammed’s men at Khaibar.  Check out how her husband was killed:

From Ibn Hisham’s “The Life of The Prophet,” via Wikipedia:

Kinana al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says “was brought”), to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, “Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?” He said “Yes”. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, “Torture him until you extract what he has.” So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud.

They set a fucking fire on his chest.  He was tortured till he was nearly dead, and then he had his head lobbed off.  All on Mohammed’s orders.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 14, Number 68:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah’s Apostle (p.b.u.h) offered the Fajr prayer when it was still dark, then he rode and said, ‘Allah Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. When we approach near to a nation, the most unfortunate is the morning of those who have been warned.” The people came out into the streets saying, “Muhammad and his army.” Allah’s Apostle vanquished them by force and their warriors were killed; the children and women were taken as captives. Safiya was taken by Dihya Al-Kalbi and later she belonged to Allah’s Apostle go who married her and her Mahr was her manumission.

Safiyya was taken by a soldier named Dihya Al-Kalbi.  But when Mohammed heard how smoking hot (apologies to her husband) she was, he decided to pay 7 slaves to purchase her from him.  For all of Mohammed’s talk of how evil Jews are, he sure had no problem fucking them.  That’s right — Safiyya was Jewish.  But not for long.  She was, of course, converted to Islam.  Her dowry was her freedom.  Wow.  That totally makes up for taking her captive!  Here’s how their wedding went down:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 524:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet stayed for three rights between Khaibar and Medina and was married to Safiya. I invited the Muslim to h s marriage banquet and there was neither meat nor bread in that banquet but the Prophet ordered Bilal to spread the leather mats on which dates, dried yogurt and butter were put. The Muslims said amongst themselves, “Will she (i.e. Safiya) be one of the mothers of the believers, (i.e. one of the wives of the Prophet ) or just (a lady captive) of what his right-hand possesses” Some of them said, “If the Prophet makes her observe the veil, then she will be one of the mothers of the believers (i.e. one of the Prophet’s wives), and if he does not make her observe the veil, then she will be his lady slave.” So when he departed, he made a place for her behind him (on his) and made her observe the veil.

Saffiya came pretty damn close to being “what his right hand possesses,” which is a nice way of saying “sex slave.”  So she got off scot-free.  Then again, she had to spend the rest of her life having sex with the man who tortured and murdered her husband.

Maymuna bint al-Harith was 36 when Mohammed married her.  He was 60.  Her name was actually Burrah, but Mohammed changed it to Maymuna.  I can relate.  When I adopted my dog, I didn’t like her name either, so I changed it.  Bitch got used to it.  The only difference is that I’m talking about an actual bitch.  And Mohammed’s doing that shit to a human fucking being.  Not that I feel all that badly for her.  Maymuna actually married the man voluntarily so she could devote herself to learning the Quran.  She was his wife for 3 years until he died.

And finally — at least for this post — Mohammed was briefly married to a woman named Fatima al-Kilabiyyah, not to be confused with his daughter Fatima Zahra.  I can’t find much of anything on this woman, except that they weren’t married for very long.  He gave her the boot at some point.

That’s 11 women so far and, shit, we’re not even halfway through.  Coming up next:  more of Mohammed’s leading ladies, including not one, but two more wives named Zainab.  Confusing!  There’s plenty more to talk about, so stay tuned.

Written by kafirgirl

August 3, 2008 at 10:01 pm

Posted in Rant

Tagged with , ,

78 Responses

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  1. Kafirgirl, this is my first post (ever) to a blog. I’ve been reading your posts since you began your read of the Qur’an, and I have to say I find your writing witty and enlightening, though the subject (like the Bible) is depressing. I’d like to say your writing and my thinking are one and the same, but that might be assuming too much. I do hope you keep up this effort as it is one of the few blogs I enthusiastically browse each day. If you ever find yourself lost in northern IL, I’d be honored to buy you a drink (Rum+Coke, is it?, my vice is a margarita). Lately I’ve been (re)reading Ibn Warraq’s Why I’m Not A Muslim, and his historical commentary on Islam, the Qur’an and Mo’ are very interesting indeed. Keep up the good work, and I look forward to your future postings. Peace to you.

    a4atheist

    August 3, 2008 at 10:50 pm

  2. “Bah!” said Lord Krishna, “That Muhammad guy is a rank amateur. I’m the real playa!” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna#The_prince)

    “That many?” Muhammad asked, incredulous (and a bit envious).

    “And that’s not even counting the milk maids, playa,” Krishna replied.

    Muhammad humphed and hurmed, and then walked off, muttering, “At least I’m not a wimp like Jesus.”

    Jesus, where he sat in the corner, began to cry. “Hey! I let that prostitute wash my feet with her hair! That was pretty sexy, kinky stuff!”

    Gregory

    August 3, 2008 at 10:54 pm

  3. Hahaha holy shit, people actually take their morals from a book whose hero is a horny old child molester? Why not take your morals from Harry Potter. It’s just as fictional as the Koran, but Harry Potter’s a better role model than Mohammed.

    Scott

    August 4, 2008 at 12:05 am

  4. Sweet Beard of Allah, Mohammed was lucky to have a god so deeply interested in his sex life. Makes me wonder why the same deity felt such a need to be an incredible prick to Job.

    Quentin George

    August 4, 2008 at 1:53 am

  5. a4atheist, so glad you’re enjoying the blog! I’ve been meaning to pick up Ibn Warraq’s book for while now. I’ve only read excerpts in The Portable Atheist. Maybe I’ll get to it after I’m done with this project. …if I can stomach the thought of reading anything more about the Quran. Yiish!
    (P.S. a blended margarita on a hot summer day > any heaven)

    Gregory, I’ve always found that Jesus / prostie hair story so odd. Fetish-y almost. To each his own, but man, that’s an “interesting” one.

    Scott, yep. But call him that and you’re likely to get punched. People just don’t believe it. Even in the face of all these hadith, they’ll say, “She was at least 16 when he married her, and she was definitely 19 when they consummated the marriage.” Oh-kay, so Aisha was playing with dolls when she was 19? Seriously? That’s special.

    Quentin George, I know, right? And he gave Jesus a non-functioning penis to boot.

    kafirgirl

    August 4, 2008 at 7:52 am

  6. “Mohammed sees his son’s wife nekkid, and suddenly recieves a revelation from God. God wants Zaid and Zainab to get a divorce. From now on, it’s no longer forbidden for a man to marry his daughter-in-law, and God wants Mohammed to marry her to serve as an example. How fucking convenient!”
    Yeah!When pagans challenge that a book be sent down, Allah doesnt sent down any book to prove that Mo is his prophet.[17:93].But when Mo wants Zainab, Allah sends down an ayat and speaks through Mo.!!!!!!

    “Zaid, of course, being a good little Muslim gave his wife the boot so she could go legally fuck his father.”
    Allah and his angels pray upon (yussalloona) Mo.[33:56].Allah salutes Mo.[58:8]. So, Zaid had no option.

    Anand

    August 4, 2008 at 9:29 am

  7. 12wives-Muhammad-Prophet of God
    16108 wives-Krishna-Incarnation of God
    How many women should I marry to be called a God? Lol!!!

    anand

    August 4, 2008 at 9:46 am

  8. This is my first comment, but i’ve been reading for a while. . .

    I have often heard muslims say that all their strict rules regarding women are because they respect women so much that they don’t want them to dirty themselves with the filthy public world of business and politics, that they put their women on a pedestal. . .but seriously how many women can mo “respect” at once?????

    i love your writing style. thanks for bringing humor to a bizarre and depressing book :)

    atheistintx

    August 4, 2008 at 9:53 am

  9. atheistintx, what pisses me off even more than Muslim men saying that shit is when Muslim women say it. “The hijab is a gift from God.” “Islam liberates women.” Shit like that. Yeah. Unfuckingbelievable.

    Thanks for the feedback. Glad you’re enjoying it so far!

    kafirgirl

    August 4, 2008 at 11:00 am

  10. “so that it may not remain a sin for the faithful (to marry) the wives of their adopted sons when they are through with them”

    how very fucking convenient. if she was a neighbour’s daughter, God would have told Mo that it was okay and mandatory to marry her once her husband was ‘through with her’. Fuck.
    In all these, don’t the ladies have any fucking choice?

    I know someone who thinks that God talks to him in his dreams and wakes up to reveal what God told him about the future of the planet, humanity etc etc. pure. transparent. horse shit. I dont find any diff between his revelations and this.

    Shashi

    August 4, 2008 at 11:06 am

  11. “The hijab is a gift from God.” “Islam liberates women.”

    beyond hypocrisy.

    Shashi

    August 4, 2008 at 11:07 am

  12. That’s kinda scary, that Islam started up through the family ranks . . . does that mean in five hundred years people will be muttering god hates fags mantras and be afraid of pics of Fred ‘fucktard’ Phelps? Hell, I’m afraid of pics of the man, already, so never mind!

    M. Lee

    August 4, 2008 at 11:27 am

  13. You have to give credit where credit is due. Mo married the girl when she was 6 but waited till she was 9 to bang her! That’s 3 years of marriage without sex! Mo was a real stand up guy in this case.

    “we’re going camping and we’re taking the Quran with us. And we’re not bringing any toilet paper. I’ll make sure to say a little prayer so that jinns don’t go flying up my ass, and I’ll wipe 3 times with each page — Mohammed would have wanted it that way.”

    It doesn’t get any better that!

    GAD

    August 4, 2008 at 11:57 am

  14. Shashi, I knew someone who also thought God was talking to him. He once stripped down buttass nekkid in mosque and yelled, “This is how we’re supposed to be! Adam and Eve were like this before everything went wrong! Take off your clothes!!” He’s on a lot of meds now.

    M. Lee, I can totally see how something like that would start up in the family. I mean, if my husband tells me something, I have no reason to think he’s lying to me. He’s an honest man. Plus it’s obviously super easy to indoctrinate your children. Breaking through to someone else, though, that takes a special kind of liar.

    GAD, I’d offer to take pictures but, um, no.

    kafirgirl

    August 4, 2008 at 1:32 pm

  15. Hey, check this out. A member of the Saudi religious police got busted for having 6 wives. That’s 2 over the limit:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7535088.stm

    kafirgirl

    August 4, 2008 at 1:39 pm

  16. I find it hilarious as a Muslim to read all these posts. All though I can find some grounds to agree with kafirgirl and her assessment of certain passages etc(see not all Muslims want to chop the head off of you kafirs for having the nerve to poke some fun at us) I find it equally interesting that you all are so much concerned with what Muslims believe and why or how they believe it. People have been brainwashed idiots and mass murderers all in the name of God since beginning of time…before it was the Jews…then the Christians…then the Muslims (with a few other religions thrown in for spice)…and yet the earth keeps spinning….yes people are basically fucked up and need to desparately believe in something to try and make sense of this very fucked up world….but why focus on that when we can focus on something else right here and now…today its Islam…tomorrow its something else…either way….religion is here to stay…get your giggles in while you can…eventually we will all stand before God…or whatever representation floats your boat…and then all the giggles stop and serious business is the order of the day. I can find humor in Islam…I can laugh with you all…after all your not forced to believe what I believe nor I you…but I can say one thing…whether you believe in Islam and whether you believe Mohammed was a genuine Prophet and his life was as spiritually uplifting to the masses as Jesus was to his crowd is beside the point…the point being is that Islam is here to stay…all your heckling and back slapping and crude jokes(even though pretty funny sometimes) wont change the fact….but its a good read anyways so I will sit back and enjoy the reparte’ and maybe occasionally take part. A little dialogue never hurt when both sides have the same goal…to enlighten….so ….carry on. I cant read enough of this shit.

    coolred38

    August 4, 2008 at 1:41 pm

  17. “yes people are basically fucked up and need to desparately believe in something to try and make sense of this very fucked up world….”

    The point, at least mine, is that the people and therefore the world would be a lot less fucked up without this bullshit.

    The pursuit of discovery and knowledge is far more awe inspiring and exciting then killing each other for or over god, or more correctly some mans vision of god. Religion is what you do when you don’t get It.

    GAD

    August 4, 2008 at 2:09 pm

  18. “GAD, I’d offer to take pictures but, um, no.”

    Bummer! :) It would make a great cartoon……

    GAD

    August 4, 2008 at 2:14 pm

  19. Gad – “Bummer” Aack! Was that a “Bum” pun?

    Calladus

    August 4, 2008 at 2:20 pm

  20. “lot less fucked up without this bullshit…”

    if it wasnt this bullshit…it would be something else…always is.

    coolred38

    August 4, 2008 at 3:05 pm

  21. I find it hilarious as a Muslim to read all these posts. All though I can find some grounds to agree with kafirgirl and her assessment of certain passages etc(see not all Muslims want to chop the head off of you kafirs for having the nerve to poke some fun at us) I find it equally interesting that you all are so much concerned with what Muslims believe and why or how they believe it.

    I’m an ex-Muslim, actually, so it should be no surprise why I’m interested in what Muslims believe and why / how they believe it. My family is Muslim, and I have Muslim friends. It affects me. And as for people on here who aren’t ex-Muslims, I don’t speak for them, but I imagine it has a little something to do with the fact that other peoples’ actions affect us all. Case in point: 9/11. I don’t know a single person who doesn’t have really strong feelings, one way or another, about what happened. It’s really not that much of a stretch to see why people are curious about Islam and what’s actually in the Quran.

    Also, I never said all Muslims would want to chop my head off. I have received several death threats now, but that doesn’t make me think every Muslim is out to get me. I know plenty of non-violent, moderate Muslims. I grew up in a family full of them, remember?

    People have been brainwashed idiots and mass murderers all in the name of God since beginning of time…before it was the Jews…then the Christians…then the Muslims (with a few other religions thrown in for spice)…and yet the earth keeps spinning….

    I don’t think all religious people are brainwashed idiots and mass murderers. That would be a gross generalization. So, I guess I’m not really seeing your point with that one.

    yes people are basically fucked up and need to desparately believe in something to try and make sense of this very fucked up world….but why focus on that when we can focus on something else right here and now…today its Islam…tomorrow its something else…either way….religion is here to stay…

    You’re basically saying that we shouldn’t have any interest in learning about Islam because religion, as fucked up as it is, is here to stay. And there’s nothing we can do about it.

    Religions come and go, yes. But why do they come and go? Could it be because people eventually realize there’s a better explanation for things? Even if that better explanation is just another illogical, irrational religion? It’s a step up. And I don’t agree with you. Religion might be here now, but the number of irreligious people is growing. Maybe someday we’ll be the majority. Either way, we’re working on it.

    get your giggles in while you can…eventually we will all stand before God…or whatever representation floats your boat…and then all the giggles stop and serious business is the order of the day.

    First off, that’s an appeal to fear. No good here. Secondly, that’s your belief, not a fact. I do not believe in God or an afterlife or hell, so it means absolutely nothing to me.

    I can find humor in Islam…I can laugh with you all…after all your not forced to believe what I believe nor I you…but I can say one thing…whether you believe in Islam and whether you believe Mohammed was a genuine Prophet and his life was as spiritually uplifting to the masses as Jesus was to his crowd is beside the point…the point being is that Islam is here to stay…

    Good for you for laughing at your own religion. You’re the very first Muslim I’ve received a comment or email from who can do that.

    What’s your proof that Islam is here to stay? It’s numbers are staying more or less steady at 20% of the world population. It’s certainly not growing, despite all the propaganda that suggests otherwise. Also, you bring up Jesus as if he actually existed. No proof of that either.

    all your heckling and back slapping and crude jokes(even though pretty funny sometimes) wont change the fact….but its a good read anyways so I will sit back and enjoy the reparte’ and maybe occasionally take part. A little dialogue never hurt when both sides have the same goal…to enlighten….so ….carry on. I cant read enough of this shit.

    First off, Islam may or may not be around for all eternity. Unless you can prove that it’ll be around, it’s not a fact.

    I’m not trying to change the world. I’m not so full of myself that I think that Islam will crumble because of one satirical blog. My objective is and always has been just to read the Quran. To see for myself what’s in this book that I was raised to believe is the true word of some invisible man in the sky. That’s it. I’m learning a lot, and it seems like other people are learning a lot. Can’t say that bugs me.

    Thanks for reading, and I hope you’re enjoying it.

    kafirgirl

    August 4, 2008 at 4:06 pm

  22. Kafirgirl,

    Regarding that guy who got naked at the mosque “because Adam and Eve were like that”, I was wondering why literal christians do not believe something similar? After all, it wasn’t until A and E had sinned that they saw their nakedness. So, if you accept Jesus and your sins are forgiven, why then should be one be ashamed one’s nakedness? Am I missing something here regarding their views on the bible (I was raised as a non-practicing Catholic in Mexico, which is a very religious country, but also very, very secular, i.e.: until 16 years ago, priests could not vote in elections)?

    Regarding the other discussion, about Islam being here to stay, I bet that was the same thing that followers of Zeus, Isis, Baal, etc., thought at the time. Will Islam, or for that case Christianity, withstand the passage of time? Maybe, or maybe not. Thing is, until now it was very hard and dangerous to gather together to study and make hard questions about the contradictions in these faiths. It is still hard, but with the internet we can approach these subjects with more safety than before. And if people start finding the same contradictions and think about what they mean, it could very well deliver a punch to these religions. Why didn’t the church and Mo. like questioning minds? Because contradictions abound. And Internet makes easy access to them and the discussions around them.

    Now, Islam might be growing, but is it because people is converting, or due to birth rates? I know that conversions do occur. But are they relevant, i.e.: people who understand the message and embrace it, or because they have no other option, or because they embrace the sundries attached to it? In Mexico, for example, there are new converts. However, these are persons from the poorest region in the country, prone to embrace anything that gives them hope and respite from the hardship of their lives, and prone to abandon it with the same celerity. Of course, in Mexico they wouldn’t be killed for doing the latter. And the people who are converting them seem to be middle-upper class people from Spain. I wonder if they have been converting them using the whole teachings in the Qu’ran, or just a watered down version of them. And in the latter case, in Mexico or elsewhere, is this considered to be a true conversion to Islam, i.e.: if I only know, understand and follow a part of it, am I a really a full convert?

    Brg

    brg

    August 4, 2008 at 5:19 pm

  23. if it wasnt this bullshit…it would be something else…always is.

    True enough, but that’s not much of a sales pitch. Like Mo who ate up the Jews bullshit and then shit out his own I prefer the smell of my own shit over someone else’s……

    GAD

    August 4, 2008 at 5:48 pm

  24. I knew Mohammed had a lot of wives, and tbh while I was a muslim I was quite the apologists, always making excuses about it. I don’t really care enough to do that anymore for obvious reasons. Also, Muhammed broke his own rules..
    1. he had a favourite wife?? You’re supposed to treat them all the same! and if you can’t then don’t fucking bother!
    2. He had more wives then he had stated a man should have (I think it was four).
    3. Also…He hit Aisha..his wife?? Where is hit her as hard as a feather’s touch, has this got something to do with evolution or just some more bullshit?

    Humra

    August 4, 2008 at 6:27 pm

  25. I prefer the smell of my own shit over someone else’s……

    Amen to that, GAD. At least my shit makes some sense to me, and it doesn’t hurt a fucking fly.

    Humra, he did have a favorite wife. It’s frikkin impossible to treat two people 100% exactly the same. There is no such thing as separate but equal. He did say a man was allowed 4 wives plus all that his right hand possesses. That’s a euphemism for concubine. He, of course, received revelations saying he could have more than 4 wives because he’s special.

    Check this out:

    Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715:
    Narrated ‘Ikrima:
    Rifa’a divorced his wife whereupon ‘AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. ‘Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah’s Apostle came, ‘Aisha said, “I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!”

    “I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women.” Sad, sad, sad.

    kafirgirl

    August 4, 2008 at 7:58 pm

  26. Ok my apologies for my “generalizations”…my first post and all…jumped in head first so to speak.

    Im no fan of hadith myself…but Im curious as to why you use them to support your opinions or get your points across if you dont believe in them either? There is hadith which forbids the writing of anything the Prophet said other than the Quran…so Muslims will use that to prove hadith are shit. So we will use a hadith to prove why hadith are shit…makes no sense. Muslims will claim the Bible is corrupt…then point to something in it to prove some point in islam(mostly something cultural)….how can you use a corrupt text to prove our text or belief is correct? Doesnt work for me.

    One of your points seems to be that the Quran is missing alot of pertinent details…but it would seem that all the details were all ready given in those earlier books…Bible, Talmud etc…the Quran wasnt a new book from God…just an updated one…sometimes complete details in a story arent needed to further the story…just a quick rehash to set the scene…understand

    I would also like to add that the opinion Mohammed was a pedophile gets thrown around alot because ONE of his wives was very young when he married her. Lets ignore for the moment the cultural norms of the time that accepted such things without lifting an eyebrow(many cultures in many parts of the world all throughout time accepted that and worse then it…yes) and focus on one thing….

    pedophile: an adult who is sexually attracted to young children….a pedophile is not a man who is sexually attracted to ONE child but in many children…the same way a rapist is attracted to any woman that trips his radar.

    If Mohammed was a pedophile as so many love to regurgitate…why are none of his other wives innocent young virgin girls…why is there no record of his many other pedophiliac desires being met and consumated all with the blessing of God? Pedophiles cannot control their urges(apparently)…they are wired to want children(however that works out) and will not stop once having taken the first step towards fullfilling that fantasy. If he was the perverted child molester that all claim he was…then how come there is no further evidence of it…other than Aisha? All the rest of his women(and yes there were many) are all old non virgins…hardly the stuff pedophile dreams are made of…yes? Just curious. The reason Im curious as to why this claim is made against him is because my own husband(now ex) was/is a pedophile…evidence proved that he did not stop at one…nor will he stop if given further chances according to doctors etc….sooooo? Still wondering.

    coolred38

    August 4, 2008 at 11:34 pm

  27. I don’t see the point in whether he was a paedophile or just engaged in it at one point in life. Either way he didn’t appear to learn anything or have any great wisdom to impart. Not exactly a role model for anyone.

    I think for most of the readers here (taking the liberty to interpret the many) the silliness in the Quran is equally silly to the Bible etc. and not to be taken very seriously as a source of truth.

    There is a quote from Bertrand Russell I like: “To discuss endlessly what silly people mean when they say silly things may be amusing but can hardly be important”

    Oz

    August 5, 2008 at 2:16 am

  28. “pedophile: an adult who is sexually attracted to young children….a pedophile is not a man who is sexually attracted to ONE child but in many children…the same way a rapist is attracted to any woman that trips his radar.”

    Cool. If God tells me it’s OK to sleep with one nine-year-old and no other, I can do it. Awesome, God’s got a “first one’s free” policy.

    I know that no one’s ever been arrested for marrying only one little girl.

    Also, I guess there’s never been a married-to-an-adult pedophile. Oh, oops, just finished reading the whole post. Sorry. Would you call your ex a pedophile if he did just sleep with one kid?

    Bryan

    August 5, 2008 at 2:33 am

  29. “I was wondering why literal christians do not believe something similar? After all, it wasn’t until A and E had sinned that they saw their nakedness. So, if you accept Jesus and your sins are forgiven, why then should be one be ashamed one’s nakedness?”

    It’s a complicated issue, but the crux of the matter is the heavy influence of Hellenic philosophy such as Neo-platonism and the later Gnosticism in particular on Christianity. In short what entered Christianity via this is a “matter is evil” theme, a creation of the Demiurge which does nothing but separate us from our pure spiritual beings, and the best way to live is to deny yourself everything (food, wealth, women etc) until Jesus comes back to put the sinful earth out of its misery.

    Read the epistles of Paul, the oldest Christian writings (they predate the Gospels) – he tells Christians to not even bother getting married. Jesus is returning soon anyway (he was supposed to do so before the last apostle died), so stay celibate until he does.

    Quentin George

    August 5, 2008 at 2:36 am

  30. Bertrand Russel also said(I believe so)…I will not die for my beliefs…for I may be wrong.

    At any rate…I find it interesting that apparently Adam and Eve did not recognize their own nakedness until they sinned….to imagine there was actually a 5 minute period in mans history when his whole being was not centered around his Holy Dick is rather refreshing for me. If only we could go back to that time…I for one believe with quite a few fibers of my being that many of the worlds human disasters or crimes against humanity occur simply because one man(or many men) wanted to fuck something that belonged to someone else…by way or another…he was determined to get it…and by fuck I mean both literally and figuratively.

    coolred38

    August 5, 2008 at 3:14 am

  31. coolred38:

    Your argument is based on subjective semantics. People say he was a pedophile because, as the Wikipedia entry defines it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophile): “In common usage, the term refers to any adult who is sexually attracted to children or who sexually abuses a child.”

    Brg.

    brg

    August 5, 2008 at 3:26 am

  32. @ # 26 coolred38:

    A paedophile doesn’t even have to touch a child to qualify as a paedophile, just the phantasies about having sex with a child is enough. Besides, you say that it’s not enough to qualify as a paedophile if one has “only” sex with one child. Would you also say that one doesn’t qualify as a murderer, if one “only” kills one person? Of course you wouldn’t. Fact is, no normal person would be sexually aroused by children, only paedophiles would. Mo also lusted after a baby, he tried to bully a child (“woman” with wet nurse) into sex and he regularly sucked the tongues of the children/babies of his followers.

    Ishaq:311 “The Apostle saw Ummu’l when she was a baby crawling before his feet and said, ‘If she grows up, I will marry her.’ But he died before he was able to do so.”

    Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 63, Number 182:
    Narrated Abu Usaid:
    We went out with the Prophet to a garden called Ash-Shaut till we reached two walls between which we sat down. The Prophet said, “Sit here,” and went in (the garden). The Jauniyya (a lady from Bani Jaun) had been brought and lodged in a house in a date-palm garden in the home of Umaima bint An-Nu’man bin Sharahil, and her wet nurse was with her. When the Prophet entered upon her, he said to her, “Give me yourself (in marriage) as a gift.” She said, “Can a princess give herself in marriage to an ordinary man?” The Prophet raised his hand to pat her so that she might become tranquil. She said, “I seek refuge with Allah from you.” He said, “You have sought refuge with One Who gives refuge. Then the Prophet came out to us and said, “O Abu Usaid! Give her two white linen dresses to wear and let her go back to her family.” Narrated Sahl and Abu Usaid: The Prophet married Umaima bint Sharahil, and when she was brought to him, he stretched his hand towards her. It seemed that she disliked that, whereupon the Prophet ordered Abu Usaid to prepare her and to provide her with two white linen dresses. (See Hadith No. 541).

    Narrated by Hisham Ibn Kasim, narrated by Huraiz, narrated by Abdul Rahman Ibn Abu Awf Al Jarashy, and narrated by Mua’wiya who said,

    “I saw the prophet – pbuh – sucking on the tongue or the lips of Al-Hassan son of Ali, may the prayers of Allah be upon him. For no tongue or lips that the prophet sucked on will be tormented (by hell fire).

    From the Syrian Biography of Muhammad written by Al-Amin Al-Ma’moun, Chapter Title: “The first people to believe in the prophet.”

    In mentioning the 10 specific qualities of the prophet, Al Zamakhshari mentioned that the prophet took charge of naming Ali and feeding him many days from his blessed saliva and having Ali SUCK ON THE PROPHET’S TONGUE.

    For it was narrated by Fatimah Bint Asad, the mother of Ali – may Allah be pleased with her – who related that when she gave birth to her son, it was the prophet who named him Ali and the prophet spat in Ali’s mouth THEN ALLOWED HIM TO SUCK ON HIS TONGUE till he fell asleep.

    She also said, “On a later day we requested a wet nurse for him (Ali) but he refused her breast so we called for Muhammad – pbuh – WHO PLACED HIS TONGUE IN ALI’S MOUTH and he fell asleep. This is the way it was as Allah willed it.”

    For proof that Mo was a paedophile check this out:

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197

    ixolite

    August 5, 2008 at 5:03 am

  33. In that case millions of marriages from the dawn of man that took place between a child and a teen or older as was customs in many parts of the world…was essentially a pedophile getting his wish come true? Many cultures around the world have married off their girls at very young ages…soon as they hit puberty in many cases. It was done…it was accepted…we cant pass todays moral judgement on yesterdays(1400 years worth of yesterdays) moral values. Obviously theirs were different then ours.

    My mother married when she was 13….her parents didnt object even though my father was 28….that was only 45 or so years ago…today…there would be objections. Times change and peoples thinking changes with it…at least some peoples.

    coolred38

    August 5, 2008 at 5:54 am

  34. Yes, people in the past married earlier. However the marriage usually took place and was consummated when puberty was reached (about the age of 12). Sometimes children were engaged/married to eachother and the marriage was consummated when both reached puberty. In both cases the partners were of equal age. It was NEVER the norm for old pricks to marry and have sex with little pre-pubescent children. It is NEVER normal for an adult to be sexually aroused by a pre-pubescent child. No normal man would get a boner at the sight of a little girl, only paedos do.

    ixolite

    August 5, 2008 at 6:24 am

  35. Oh, and I forgot: Mo is supposed to be the Uswa Hasana, the best example for all times, so your “it was a custom back then” doesn’t cut it anyway.

    ixolite

    August 5, 2008 at 6:40 am

  36. coolred,

    The hadith are no more or less corrupt than the Quran itself. I use the hadith for the same reason I use the Quran. Because the vast majority of Muslims believe in them. And that includes my own family.

    A lot of the stories in the Quran are not just missing crucial details — the details that they do offer do not match up with the Old Testament and the New Testament. Plus, God mentions in the Quran several times that the Christians corrupted the Bible. What’s the point of sending down something new that relies on a corrupt text to complete the story? More like to me, Mohammed learned those stories from the convert Khadija used to take him to hear, and he pieced them together later on using the details he knew.

    Your argument for Mohammed not being a pedophile is that he only fucked one little girl? And everyone was doing it, so it’s ok? Those are logical fallacies: an appeal to common practice. It carries no weight whatsoever.

    Not to mention, why didn’t God try to stop any of this? If he wanted to end the horrendous practice, all he really had to do is stop Mohammed from doing it. But no, he sends Mohammed wet dreams of a baby wrapped up in silk. And dirty old men all over the world are still using this as an excuse to stick their shriveled up dicks in little girls.

    Also, how do you know he wasn’t attracted to every little girl he sees? Other hadith mention that there was another baby he had his eye on. Plus all the tongue sucking someone copied and pasted up top.

    You said he wasn’t married to any other virgins. Wrong. I’m writing the second part to this post. He actually did marry another virgin, however when he came at her in the bedroom, she cried out for sanctuary with God. He had no choice but to let her go back to her family.

    And the pedophile thing is just one issue. He butchered entire villages and then bedded women that same night, while the stench of their town burning was still thick in the air. Lets call it what it is: rape. And just because everyone was doing it, doesn’t make it right, moral or acceptable coming from someone who Muslims all over the world claim to be the most perfect man.

    That’s my 2 cents.

    kafirgirl

    August 5, 2008 at 7:57 am

  37. Aye, if we’re not expected to treat Muhammed differently to another other 6th century Arab then fine, the fact he partook in the violence and sex crimes of the average 6th century Arab male isn’t relevant.

    However, if he’s supposed to be a role model for people in this day and age then it is relevant. It really doesn’t help when you can pick, at random, almost any other figure from the same time period and find them to be a better moral paragon that Mo. Case in point, Hypatia.

    Quentin George

    August 5, 2008 at 8:07 am

  38. Looking forward to part 2. Kafirgirl

    quote: ” That’s the man who handed over his little girl to a man nearly 9 times her age. He was convinced that Mohammed was a man of God, and whatever God says goes unless you want to burn in hell.”

    Just a little correction here. Abu Bakr was not really that enthusiastic about marrying his daughter to Mo.

    Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18:
    Narrated ‘Ursa:

    The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for ‘Aisha’s hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said “But I am your brother.” The Prophet said, “You are my brother in Allah’s religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry.”

    Then someone else offered another girl to him (she must probably be ugly and Mo did not want to marry her) so he said:

    Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 37:
    Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:

    It was said to the Prophet, “Won’t you marry the daughter of Hamza?” He said, “She is my foster niece (brother’s daughter). “

    iskimo

    August 5, 2008 at 10:25 am

  39. Quentine George said:
    However, if he’s supposed to be a role model for people in this day and age then it is relevant.

    Exactly.

    Iskimo, geez, that kinda makes the whole thing even grosser for me. Thanks for adding that.

    kafirgirl

    August 5, 2008 at 10:31 am

  40. Seems like if he had that much power and was letching after all the teeny tots beside Aisha…then he could have just informed the adoring masses that ALL little girls must be presented to him first before being offered in marriage to someone else…cause God said so….they would have done it Im sure…and he would have said it as well if thats what he was really hankering for…a piece of young ass.

    Anyone that knows anything about Arabs will know that they are absolute shit at keeping track of dates…specifically ages…dates of birth. There is alot of contention over Aishas true age…because her actual age just isnt known…its been written she was everything from 9 to 19…so why choose the lower number on the spectrum when theres also the probability she was older than that? There are a hell of a lot of Arabs this day and age that havent got a fucking clue exactly how old they are or when they were born…it just isnt something thats very important to them.

    btw why should the details in the Quran match up the ones in the Bible etc…if we believe the Bible is corrupted…then those details would be and could be included in the corruption…just a thought. And if you dont believe in either one then that particular line of thought means nothing.

    Its not considered a marriage if it wasnt consumated…so even if that one girl was a virgin…he didnt get none of that…and if he was a rapist as well as a pedo…then what exactly stopped him and moved him to send her back to her family?

    So he was born into a savage brutal era in which the Arabs were considered little better then brutal barbarians…and you expected him to make nice with his enemies and pass the peacepipe when they were plotting and planning all around him? He wouldnt have lasted long if he just held up the peace sign everytime someone came screaming at him on the back of a camel with sword drawn…maybe he learned something about the fate of poor old Jesus…Jesus didnt stand a chance with the masses…and he never lifted a finger in harm to anyone…so its damned if you do…and sacrificed(apparently) if you dont….cant win.

    coolred38

    August 5, 2008 at 11:28 am

  41. “so its damned if you do…and sacrificed(apparently) if you dont….cant win.”

    Because you can’t beat reality……..

    GAD

    August 5, 2008 at 11:38 am

  42. For fuck’s sake. So what if this asshole doesn’t fit exactly into a specific category of psychopathology as defined in the PCL-R? His own fucking followers describe him as a wife-beating child-abusing slave-trafficking war-mongering, genocidal raping murdering swindling lying hypocritical greedy delusional psychopath. And that’s just in the first seven chapters. You sticking up for him legitimizes more of the same from sick fucks like this one:

    “A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives.” (Ayatollah Khomeini / Tahrirolvasyleh / 1990)

    Fuck him and fuck Mohammed and fuck you.

    watercat

    August 5, 2008 at 12:17 pm

  43. “Fuck him and fuck Mohammed and fuck you….”

    I might take exception to your resulting in name calling…but I dont even know you and your current mental status…so will just pray you get that much needed help real soon.

    coolred38

    August 5, 2008 at 12:45 pm

  44. “Anyone that knows anything about Arabs will know that they are absolute shit at keeping track of dates…specifically ages…dates of birth. There is alot of contention over Aishas true age…because her actual age just isnt known…its been written she was everything from 9 to 19…so why choose the lower number on the spectrum when theres also the probability she was older than that? There are a hell of a lot of Arabs this day and age that havent got a fucking clue exactly how old they are or when they were born…it just isnt something thats very important to them.”
    Relax, u must be a non-Arab muslim. Arabs are not only absolute shit in keeping dates…in lot of other things as well. U non-Arab muslims come from a better cultural settings and u find that Hadiths morally offensive .But Islamised Arabs who compiled these Hadiths didnt think having sex with a 9-year-old shameful. That is why the Hadith is there, Kafirgirl, other apostates/non-muslims didnt compile or write those Hadiths.So, dont blame them. And I really admire the fact that u find the Hadith offensive. Means-u an ordinary muslim got better morals than Muhammad.

    Anand

    August 5, 2008 at 1:41 pm

  45. Coolred, you’re saying “he married one 6 year old, so why didn’t he marry all the 6 year olds.” That’s a logical fallacy, AGAIN. Jesus Fucking Christ you’re just full of them.

    Again, you do not have to molest or rape an entire village full of people in order to be considered a pedophile and a fucktard. Nobody has a get-out-of-jail-free card for their first offense. Not even prophet of Islam.

    And you’re saying, “Why is he a rapist because, even though he raped all these other women, he let that one woman go?” Are you fucking kidding me?

    I mentioned in my post that a lot of apologists argue that Aisha was more like 16 or 19, but the hadith clearly state she was 6 years old. That she was playing with dolls. She was 6 when he married, her and 18 when he died. It’s in the hadith, which most Muslims believe in . Where in the hadith does it say she’s 16 or 19?

    Anyone that knows anything about Arabs will know that they are absolute shit at keeping track of dates…specifically ages…dates of birth. There is alot of contention over Aishas true age…because her actual age just isnt known…

    Yet again, that’s a gross generalization. You’re full of logical fallacies, huh?

    Fuckin A. I was going to reply to your post bit by bit, but then I read through the entire thing again. Here’s what it boils down to: the Arabs were a bunch of barbaric people, so you can’t hold Mohammed responsible for anything he did.

    Logical fallacy. Again. And again and again and again.

    You’re making excuses, and you don’t even bother to answer or defend the shit you’re saying. You just throw in a red herring and pretend like your last argument wasn’t full of holes.

    I might take exception to your resulting in name calling…but I dont even know you and your current mental status…so will just pray you get that much needed help real soon.

    You do realize you’re the one sitting here defending someone for molesting only one child, right? I question your mental status. Also I see that you didn’t say a damn thing else about what Watercat wrote. You didn’t try to argue it or refute it. You called her crazy and you moved along. Nice.

    kafirgirl

    August 5, 2008 at 1:43 pm

  46. KafirGirl, I love your blog (for a number of reasons), but the Ali translation is far too apologetic, such as him parenthetically inserting “lightly” into 4:34 (wife beating). You mention the Hadith about Aisha getting punched in the chest by Muhammad, but there is also another one where Aisha states that her chest hurt for several days as a result. There was nothing “light” about it.

    I agree that some regard the Hadith with suspicion, but many believe it to be true. Perhaps more importantly, these stories are what Muslims *chose* to record and preserve about Muhammad. I think that is telling on many levels.

    (Michael, I edited your comment because I didn’t want to give away the next post. Hope you don’t mind. Most people don’t know about you-know-who, and I didn’t want to give away the surprise. Don’t worry, I won’t forget! -kafirgirl)

    Michael

    August 5, 2008 at 1:43 pm

  47. Michael, Ahmed Ali is king of the apologists. I’ve already pointed out a bunch of passages where he blatantly lies about what he’s translated. It’s ridiculous! I’m cross checking against other translations, so it’s pretty easy to bust him.

    As for hadith, fantastic point. Yes, some people don’t really accept them. Most do. And the hadith were edited down. That means they removed a bunch of other hadith that probably didn’t show old Mo in a favorable light. These are the best of the best presented to us by Mohammed’s own followers. That’s why I feel like they give a fairly accurate picture of what the guy was like. Or at the very least, what his followers thought he was like. So far, pretty embarrassing stuff.

    Thanks for the feedback, and I’m glad you’re enjoying the blog so far. About your previous post, the part I edited out — I actually wrote that up last night. Scandalous!! I’d never heard of her before, so it was really interesting.

    kafirgirl

    August 5, 2008 at 1:52 pm

  48. Eye-opening article.

    Mr Singh

    August 5, 2008 at 1:55 pm

  49. Allah gave Muhammad as the role model for Muslims, per Quran 33:21. He stole, kidnapped/ransomed, attacked, murdered (including ordering assassinations), hit his child wife, enslaved women/children (the men were usually executed), raped, instructed his men how to rape, deceived, got 20% of war booty (it is good to be the leader of an organize crime family), was misogynistic (Islamic attire virtually guarantees Muslim women to be Vitamin D deficient, which harms their health and increases the odds of their children having health problems), etc.

    Of course, not all Muslims actually model themselves after Muhammad (thankfully), but if they do, they are still within their Islamic values and beyond the reproach of the “moderate” Muslims. Allah is great indeed. The ever-living despot.

    Michael

    August 5, 2008 at 1:56 pm

  50. I can’t believe you edited my post!!! Hahahaha! :-)

    I’ll look forward to what you wrote about you-know-whos doing you-know-whats at you-know-wheres.

    You are right about all of this stuff being embarrassing. I had a Muslim (Pakistani gal) once tell me if all of this “embarrassing” stuff was really true, she’d change her religion. Of course, in reality, she can’t allow herself to believe it is true — she can only allow herself to believe what she wants to be true.

    When I started reading the Quran/Hadith I was expecting more of a “love thy neighbor” spirit (like Christians think Jesus as a role model represents — not that I’m promoting Christianity here, but the Christians didn’t record/preserve anything about Jesus that is even remotely like what is in the Hadith). I was quite startled at all I was reading. And it didn’t take long. I started with chapter 4 (The Women) and was boggled at 4:3 and all it implied. It got worse after that. I really wasn’t prepared for that.

    Michael

    August 5, 2008 at 2:16 pm

  51. I can’t believe you edited my post!!! Hahahaha!

    I knooooow! I felt terrible — sorry again! — but she’s basically the star of part 2. There isn’t much information available on the others.

    As for you Pakistani gal pal, I know a lot of people like that. Both Christian and Muslim (the only Jews I know are atheists). It’s amazing, the human mind’s ability to self-delude.

    kafirgirl

    August 5, 2008 at 2:20 pm

  52. Michael, if u are arguing from a Christian perspective then u got to take into account that the only reason Christianity seems so “love they neighbour,” is because the west had this thing called the ‘enlightenment’- which Muslims have not had. Prior to the 18th century, Christianity bears a strong resemblance to Islamism. It was misogonyst, it was aggressively expansionist and it was irrational- e.g. witch trials, claims that non christians could be enslaved to save their souls and so on, and that’s without even mentioning the Crusades, which was the medieval church gone militant. Now that’s not Christianity? Yes it was, and still is in some places.
    The ‘that’s not us,’ argument is also what is so infuriating about Muslims. The answer? There’s no point in trading off one faith against the other cos whenever they had a crack at power- they never hesitated to do bad stuff in the extreme. Liberal democracy in the Muslim world is the answer, it will make Islamism self reform, just the way Christianity turned all meek and mild after centuries of butchery.

    jasmine

    August 5, 2008 at 3:11 pm

  53. apg:

    Actually, I was “arguing” (and I won’t claim that is the right term) from a viewpoint well before the Christian enlightenment. I was stating that Jesus is the Christian role model and Muhammad is the Muslim role model. When a Christian does something (like raping someone), I’d argue that they are acting outside the teachings of Jesus — that they have not lived up to his example. (I don’t know of any place in the Bible where Jesus said it was OK to rape someone.) Within Islam, using Muhammad as a role model, well, you have recorded practices of rape occurring and being condoned and encouraged. (And many other “bad” things.) I don’t know of any examples of Jesus burning witches or enslaving anyone, either. The Crusades were awful, yes, but in all fairness, they were preceded by the Jihads into Christian lands before them. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I try to be careful to keep the role models (Jesus/Muhammad) separate from the practitioners (Christians/Muslims). I don’t for one minute believe that all practitioners of these faiths will behave exactly as the role model of the faith or that all Muslims are evil (or all Christians good) or anything like that.

    So, why are the Hadith and teachings of Muhammad important? Because those teachings are affecting real people every day. As an example, just last month in Pakistan, two little Christian girls, aged 10 and 13, were kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam and then “married” with it all being legal under Sharia Laws:

    http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=12771&size=A#

    This is justified by the Hadith:

    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/086.sbt.html#009.086.098

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    The Prophet said, “A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent; and the matron should not be married till she is asked whether she agrees to marry or not.” It was asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! How will she (the virgin) express her consent?” He said, “By keeping silent.” Some people said, “If a virgin is not asked for her consent and she is not married, and then a man, by playing a trick presents two false witnesses that he has married her with her consent and the judge confirms his marriage as a true one, and the husband knows that the witnesses were false ones, then there is no harm for him to consummate his marriage with her and the marriage is regarded as valid.”

    [I’ve been long-winded enough, but I hope I’ve somewhat clarified a point.]

    Michael

    August 5, 2008 at 4:33 pm

  54. Michael, I get the point. But I get the feeling we may disagree on a couple of things.

    You’re talking as if Jesus was an actual historical figure. There’s no evidence that he actually existed. And if you say “the Bible say…”, I will shit kittens. The Bible also teaches it’s OK to stone unruly children, own slaves, and plenty of other good old fashioned “moral values.” It is just as stupid and outdated as the Quran is.

    You make it seems like Islam affect people every day, whereas Christianity doesn’t. Bullshit. Two words for you: George Bush. The man thought God was telling him to go to war with Iraq. Does that not affect all of us? I can keep listing examples if you’d like.

    Christians — and I’m not implying that you are — seem to love pointing fingers at Muslims and saying, “At least we’re not as fucked up as them.” Pot / kettle / black. End of story.

    kafirgirl

    August 5, 2008 at 4:52 pm

  55. The Bible is so schizophrenic on Jesus that it’s nearly impossible to form any coherent picture on him. One minute it has him saying he’s going to uphold all Jewish law, then it has him rewriting the ten commandments (Jesus cuts out all the God-related ones and throws in a new random one for good measure), he goes from calling his disciples “blessed” to “Satan” and goes from kissing women in the first written Gospels to the Gospel of John where he won’t even let one touch his robe.

    The reason, of course, is that between the writing of the Gospel of Mark (c. 70 AD) and the Gospel of John (post 100 AD) a lot of Hellenic philosophy and theology was imported. The original version of Mark had no virgin birth or resurrection. It began with Jesus preaching and ended with him dead in a tomb.

    Quentin George

    August 5, 2008 at 5:20 pm

  56. Whether or not Jesus actually existed, Christians believe he did and that is their role model and they believe the Bible contains his teachings. (Same for Muslims/Muhammad with the Quran/Hadith.) The Bible contains much more than the teachings of Jesus, though (that whole Old Testament chunk with the stonings/etc), but I don’t know of any place where it says Jesus taught stoning or owned slaves, etc. I admit I haven’t read it all (on my to-do list), but I do not know of a teaching of Jesus that asserts that. Feel free to point me to a verse of Jesus teaching that if it exists, though. :-) (I’m being serious — I’m always open to correcting mistakes and learning greater truths regardless of what that truth is.) (And I’m not trying to evangelize, either, I’m just trying to point out that Jesus doesn’t encompass the whole Bible, but Muhammad delivered the whole Quran.)

    I just finished a book called Misquoting Jesus and one of the interesting things, to me, was the part where the author (a Blblical textual critic) talked about the intentional alteration of the texts by scribes who copied the material to reduce the influence of women in the church. One “corruption” he pointed out was 1 Corinthians 14, verses 34-35 (women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.) Apparently that wasn’t in the original teachings/scriptures, but was later used by Christians (not Jesus — again, separating the two) for centuries to “put women in their place.” Sad.

    George Bush is an idiot and I feel sorry for the Iraqis. I cannot believe he was appointed President. He is many other worse things, too, but I’ll stop there.

    Peace. :-) Looking forward to Part II!!!

    Michael

    August 5, 2008 at 5:34 pm

  57. Michael, i mean arguing in the politest sense, of course! Still, think about it, ure take on it is that the rasul is a pretty dreadful person, yes, and that he is the role model for equally dreadful Muslim behavior. Here’s the problem with that, Crusaders, people like Bernard of Clairvaux for example, where able to present a Christ to the masses who authorized a Christian’s duty to take up arms. Did not Jesus himself tell, “I have come here with a sword.”
    Christ has consistently been portrayed throughout Christian history as a person who sanctions religious violence. For me personally, know, it’s not how i perceive him, not at all, and yes, he comes across as more humane than Muhammad- but would i have said so much in the 13th century?
    Equally, i could quote u tons of stuff of Muhammad’s acts of kindness to orphans, widows, former enemies, people who let him down, Christians and Jews, prisoners of war, on and on, so that the man is a fount of good deeds and kindness.
    And this is the essential problem with religion- it can be interpreted any way u like, for peaceful ends, or for negative ones, u can be someone like Cat Stevens or a Sufi out in California, or a member of the PK Taliban in South Waziristan- ure view of Muhammad is just one of many, each view serves its owners own purpose. Who was Muhammad? Who was Christ? The real question is not where they cruel or angels, it’s who are we?
    There’s one sad part to this, in saying this, i know people will call me a appeaser etc etc, maybe even a closet Muslima, but ask ureself this…… would Muslims have ever followed a gangster quran rapper alone cos if there wasn’t something that moved hearts in a very profound way, Muhammad would have had no more political significance today than Genghis Khan. When u are from our culture as former Muslims and seen very decent people weep while contemplating Muhammad’s life and deeds, u get to understand that slamming the prophet just isnt enough, he’s bad, all Muslims are therefore bad, sounds actually kind of medieval in itself actually.

    jasmine

    August 5, 2008 at 5:51 pm

  58. ok…first you say hadith is shit then rely on them to accurately tell you how old aisha was. Hadith are shit…but accurately tell you all you need to know about Mohammed and his life….hadith are shit but you use them to prove your points…what ups with that? i believe hadith are shit too…and I dont use them to support my views whatever they may be precisely because they are so fucked up.

    And Im not defending the Prophets pedophile behavoir if you would fucking read my answers….I said pedophiles do not stop at one…just like rapists do not stop at one…and Mohammed had more fucking power to get what he wanted then any common pedophile or rapist…and so if he was a pedophile he could very well have been living like a king surrounded by all that lovely young pussy. And I have read plenty about aisha’s true age being suspect…google it as your fond of advising. What the fuck does playing with dolls have to do with age…there are teens that still have dolls…there are women that collect dolls…make dolls…have a whole damn lifestyle centered around fucking dolls. Having a doll doesnt tell you someones age.

    Your calling it an “offence” when the point being that it wasnt considered an offence back then. Have you ever watched a fucking movie in which someone from the centuries past gets zapped forward in time then loses their mind when they see an airplane or some shit….and vice versa…thats because our minds cannot comprehend the disparities in the culture clash that occurs throughout time. We can stand on our high horse now and say how dare he marry a 6 year old and have sex with her when she was 9(if that was indeed her age)…but we werent there…we cant be there…we cant understand and accept what those people understood and accepted as normal behavoir in this day and age…just cant do it. Im not defending the Prophet for being a pedophile…Im defending my belief that he wasnt…if you choose to believe he was then thats up to you.

    How is the statement about Arabs being lousy with dates and ages a generalization…thats an easy enough thing to check out…once again…having lived in the middle east for 21 years myself…I can attest to the fact…and this is the 21 st century for Gods sake….but go look back through historical archives…theyve got different dates and ages mentioned…for the same event in scores of different historical records. Arabs remembered dates and ages etc generally by what time of year it was or what particular event was occuring etc…not because they checked out the calendar hanging beside the damn door. Their pretty damn lousy with time too…arabs were in fact the last race on the planet just about to incorporate the clock into their lifestyle…and they still havent mastered keeping to a clocks time.

    watercat made this argument (if thats what it is) personal against me by saying “fuck you”…so why should i spend a moment of my time addressing her post other then to question her reasons for that snappy comment?

    coolred38

    August 5, 2008 at 5:58 pm

  59. “The Crusades were awful, yes, but in all fairness, they were preceded by the Jihads into Christian lands before them.”

    These were not Jihadists, they were population movements of Turks into Eastern Turkey, not dissimilar to Saxon movement into England. In fact, the Ayubbi government in Cairo protected Christian pilgrims from europe and it was the Kipchak Turkik nomads who attacked Christian pilgrims, who were themselves running from the Mongols, as was the Seljuks. That’s not Jihad at all. Even the Pope aplogised for the Crusades, so there must have been something wrong, right?

    jasmine

    August 5, 2008 at 5:58 pm

  60. Michael,

    I am mentioning this from the top of my head, so I might be wrong, but I believe that whilst Jesus is not depicted in the gospels as condoning slavery with words, he does it with acts and omissions. Or at least once, when a centurion asks him to cure his slave. J does that, but says no word against being it wong to keep slaves.

    Then again, somewhere in some text in the other books of the New Testament slaves are told to be meek and work diligently by Paul or Peter, who should know what J thought about this issue. If you go to the Brick Bible you can find the exact passages.

    Brg

    brg

    August 5, 2008 at 7:03 pm

  61. Michael, I wasn’t making a claim that Jesus told people to bash children’s heads again rocks. I’m making the claim that his God did. I definitely don’t understand the trinity works, but isn’t Jesus the same as God is the same as the holy spirit? All for one, one for all? Isn’t Jesus a representative (and, somehow, the earthy incarnation) of that God? Convoluted to say the least.

    Regardless, if you remove the whole God thing, then sure, Jesus looks squeaky clean next to Mohammed. Um, that’s not really all that hard. Aside from those few verses like Matthew 10:34 (Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword) and others like it (Luke 12:51, Luke 22:36, Revelation 19:11), plus that whole cursing-the-fig-tree-incident, Jesus seems down right peaceful. It’s just too bad there’s that jealous, genocidal, attention whore of a God behind him. And it’s also too bad that they’re all in a book filled with contradictions, errors, and other great big piles of steaming horse shit.

    kafirgirl

    August 5, 2008 at 7:06 pm

  62. Just some FYI

    Jesus never wrote anything, so if you disregard those who quote him you have no Christianity.

    Paul who wrote much of the NT never met Jesus.

    Jesus was “God” and god gave laws for raping, killing and slavery.

    The NT does not condemn slavery, and tells slaves to serve their masters well.

    GAD

    August 5, 2008 at 7:16 pm

  63. Jesus was “God” and god gave laws for raping, killing and slavery.

    So I’m not really off-base with what I said about Jesus being God then? I have a hell of a time understanding the trinity. It makes no fucking sense.

    kafirgirl

    August 5, 2008 at 7:22 pm

  64. Can I just go back to the Aisha thing, please if that’s ok. Now we got to maybe get some perspective here cos i feel that the 9 year old thing is taken out of context actually. If u are judging by the standards of today- yes, it’s dreadful, or by the standards of a exemplary role model for pious behaviour right here and now, equally it’s bad.
    So let’s put it in context. Queen Mary 1st was married at 1 year old, so were most, if not all, of the royal children in the Tudor age, famous ones, we just do know about it, but european courts married Katerina of Aragon to Henry VIII’s brother when she was 4, and on and on it goes, it was common practice- then. We also see huge age differences too, as anyone who knows even a bit about medieval and pre industrial europe. But no one ever gets upset? This is cos it’s understood that it was ‘done back then.’ Muhammad, regardless what some half wit Islamists tell u is and ought to remain consigned to the 7th century-where marriages like his with Aisha were the absolute norm. Now does that mean i approve it? No. Does it mean I find the whole Islamic attitude to sexuality and womanhood something to be proud of- no. But i do think it does cause me to raise me eye brows with annoyance when i hear the word ‘paedophile’ used, cos that is simply the language of the extreme right and i don’t see nothing productive coming out of it, but hey, ure free to have ure opinion, i do think it plays into the hands of extremists on all sides however.

    jasmine

    August 5, 2008 at 7:33 pm

  65. Coolred38: If you want to question my reasons, do so. You say I made the argument personal? Wrong. YOU made it personal when you insist it is ok to fuck little girls: quite a few little girls take that personally. Millions, in fact, since until 2002 it was legal in Iran to marry nine-year-olds. Why? Because of you, that’s why; people like you and Khomeni that refuse to condemn old mohammed’s actions. My insults are directed at your and their arguments, which have been causing untold misery for centuries.

    The claim that we can’t pass moral judgment on yesterday is bullshit; just about every culture in history acted better than this early day Charles Manson Family, and to claim that everyone else in Arabia at the time was just as sick and perverted is unlikely, racist, and irrelevant. Neither does nitpicking over the technical definition of pedophilia excuse a child-abusing rapist etc etc; minor details don’t change the fact that his own followers describe him that way, and as long as there are people like you and the Iranian clerics, little girls will continue being raped and enslaved, because you take the side of their abusers. So just stop.

    watercat

    August 5, 2008 at 8:01 pm

  66. APG: Word!
    The trick is to keep those half-wit islamists from running the country. Or half-wit Christian-ists or half-wit Zionists in Israel and the US.

    watercat

    August 5, 2008 at 8:05 pm

  67. APG, well said. Watercat, also well said. I’d honestly never heard about the Aisha thing until just a few months ago, so, yes, it still makes me sick to my fucking stomach. Just as sick as it makes me to see photos of modern day Muslims marrying little girls (FaithFreedom.org has a few). It’s a gut reaction. I can’t help that. But I think I’ve said all I need to say on the subject, and anything further is just beating a dead horse.

    On another note, I realized today that if Mohammed did have sex with Safiyah (the captured Jewish hottie), he violated one of his own rules. He had just killed her husband, and he took her into his tent that night. You’re supposed to wait 40 days to have sex with a widow. He didn’t.

    kafirgirl

    August 5, 2008 at 8:11 pm

  68. I’ll try to keep this brief (ha!) since I think we (I?) ventured way off track. (I didn’t mean to do that.)

    apg:

    “…would Muslims have ever followed a gangster quran rapper alone…” To use an obvious example, Hitler was very charismatic and convinced otherwise good Germans to do vile things. Muhammad just made it divine.

    You also suggested I think “all Muslims are therefore bad”, which is entirely NOT true. I’ve known several good Muslims which is precisely why I try to differentiate between the role model Muhammad (per Quran 33:21) and individual Muslims (who may not even know the history or what is written in the Hadith). Ultimately, we are all responsible for our decisions, etc. And just because Muhammad had a child bride doesn’t mean all Muslims today must have them, but it does make it harder to end the practice in Muslim communities (my opinion). I’d personally like to see an end to child brides, wife beating, veiling of women (which is unhealthy for them and their children, scientifically speaking), the 4-witnesses required to prove rape law, stonings, beheadings, etc.

    As to Queen Mary (or any other child anywhere on the planet) being married young, well, that was done *to* her (she didn’t instigate it) and she isn’t the model of conduct for all of humanity for all of eternity. So, the example doesn’t quite hold up. Also, *Allah* told Muhammad to take the child as a bride. The Supreme Being of the Entire Universe should’ve known better! I expect more from an omniscient, omnipresent, all-powerful, loving and fatherly being. Allah should’ve known many more things, and I’d mention them, too, but that would just side-track things again. :-)

    And yes, Jesus did say, “I have come here with a sword.” (Or something to that effect.) It was a metaphor about splitting families apart (those who followed his teachings vs those who didn’t) since he didn’t have a sword. Kind of like that whole speaking-in-parables thing.

    Why didn’t I just mention Buddha or something?

    brg:

    This is going to sound apologetic, but one explanation I’ve read is that Jesus was Jewish and the Jews had to escape slavery in Egypt. It was kind of implied in the context of the time that they weren’t in favor of slavery. And yes, Jews did practice “slavery” then, but it was a form of bankruptcy. A Jew in over his head in debt would indenture himself to another for a period of time to clear the debts. Maybe not the best answers there, but something to consider?

    kg:

    I don’t claim to truly understand the Trinity, but I kind of view it like H2O. H2O comes in ice, water, and steam, but it is still H2O. I can’t really explain why Jesus (God) became the kinder/gentler deity instead of the same old wrathful one, either. I still have a lot of reading to do.

    BTW, did you cover 4:157? I’ll have to go back and look. That one interested me because Allah is boasting about how he deceived his believers (and the Jews and Romans) into thinking Jesus had been crucified when he really made someone else (who?) look like Jesus. Yes, Allah the deceiver.

    OK, I must shut up now. I know there was more mentioned that I could talk about, but I’m *really* wanting to see Part II. (Plus I’m sure everyone is sick of me talking about stuff.)

    Michael

    August 5, 2008 at 11:29 pm

  69. watercat…

    My two daughters were the victims of their father…who was a fucking bonafide pedophile ok…so I know what one is…and I know what one isnt. You might want to argue the Prophet was this that or the other…but he wasnt a pedo….and maybe your thinking…why the fuck does she care or who gives a shit if he was a pedo…for sure as shit he was a rapist so being a pedo is just another defect he had(for arguments sake)…because I know what a true pedophile is….I lived with one…I saw the defestation and destruction he wrought upon this family…I SHARED FUCKING BREATHING SPACE WITH THAT FUCKING PIECE OF CAMEL SHIT…so if anyone would be jumping up and down and pointing fingers and crying out…pedophile…it would be me as i detest them and wish all of them were killed from the moment they lay wet and bloody between their corrupt soul generating mothers quivering thighs. Just my opinion on that.

    Keep your fuck yous to yourself…it furthers your argument not at all. If your right then your right…whats with the name calling…you sound like a trantrum throwing 10 year old.

    coolred38

    August 5, 2008 at 11:50 pm

  70. Coolred38, you’re done here. The rest of us have moved and on you’re still stuck on this shit. You’re not furthering discussion and you’re certainly not enlightening anyone. You’re running around in circles and you’re making the rest of us do the same.

    Quite frankly, it’s really fucking annoying, and that’s just from your first day of having posting privileges.

    I recently read The Apostate’s comments policy, I’m stealing it from her. Feel free to check it out here: http://apostate.wordpress.com/this-blog/comments-policy/

    Edit: I’m adopting mostly just 1-5. Ya’ll feel free to debate. Just don’t expect me to be in the middle of it any more. I have a book to read, you know.

    kafirgirl

    August 6, 2008 at 12:34 am

  71. “but we werent there…we cant be there…we cant understand and accept what those people understood and accepted as normal behavoir in this day and age…just cant do it.”
    But Islam claims that its principles are eternal for all time to come and the Prophet’s behaviour is a role-model/ideal for all muslims. A Prophet of God shudnt adopt the behaviour of that age. He should reform it.Dont u think so?

    “Im not defending the Prophet for being a pedophile…Im defending my belief that he wasnt…”
    Now, u r being honest. Beliefs arent worth defending as they are always not supported by facts/evidences or are contrary to evidences.

    No useful purpose is achieved by this defence of urs. The Hadiths werent written/compiled by non-muslims.They were written /compiled by muslims.

    Anand

    August 6, 2008 at 1:26 am

  72. quote: On another note, I realized today that if Mohammed did have sex with Safiyah (the captured Jewish hottie), he violated one of his own rules. He had just killed her husband, and he took her into his tent that night. You’re supposed to wait 40 days to have sex with a widow. He didn’t.

    kafirgirl,

    This is reported in a muslim text, i think it is Tabari…

    quote: One mile from Khaibar. Here the Prophet married Safiyah. She was groomed and made-up for the Prophet by Umm Sulaim, the mother of Anas ibn Malik. They spent the night there. Abu Ayyub al-Ansari guarded the tent of the Prophet the whole night. When, in the early dawn, the Prophet saw Abu Ayyub strolling up and down, he asked him what he meant by this sentry-go; he replied: “I was afraid for you with this young lady. You had killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives, and till recently she was an unbeliever. I was really afraid for you on her account”.

    Muhammad was obviously too horny to think about anything else other than sex at that moment.

    iskimo

    August 6, 2008 at 6:27 am

  73. i’ve noticed something quite odd about Mo and his ladies. unlike the bible, which lumps women in with property at every turn, Mo at least doesn’t treat his women as property, at least it’s not mentioned explicitly as much as it is absolutely implied [because he fucking did]. i feel that this blog is a revelation and find solace in the fact that the bibull may be full of shit, but monotheism has hit a humiliating new low. even the mormons don’t have this much bullshit going on, and that’s saying a lot.

    Priest

    August 18, 2008 at 9:36 pm

  74. Hey Kaffirgurl! Gratz again on the blog.
    I was wondering as an apostate if you could shed some light on how muslims manage to ignore Mohammeds peadophillia. I know from my spamming of muslim forums, its all like “well she was a woman because she was on the blob” and “it was the custom in those days”.

    Do you get a sense that muslims are secretly embarrassed by Mohammeds torture, rape, slavery, genocide and intolerance or is it the case of no hoop to high to jump through?

    sweetpityfulmercy

    August 23, 2008 at 12:28 am

  75. Oh there are some serious apologetics about Aisha’s age. The most common one is that she wasn’t actually 6. She was more like 16. Which, of course, makes no sense in light of the hadith that clearly state she was playing with her friends on a swing or a see-saw (can’t remember which) when Mohammed came over for the marriage proposal. And she played with dolls at the time. If you read through the two women posts, you’ll see a Muslim commenter actually say something like, “Lots of women play with Barbies, even after they turn 18.” Right. I think it’s less embarrassment and more denial, denial, denial. They absolutely cannot believe that he might not have been the most perfect human being ever — that’s indoctrination for ya!

    The “it was tradition in those days” thing doesn’t hold water with me either. According to the Quran, it was common for pagans to bury their daughters alive, and God put a stop to that. Why wouldn’t he put a stop to 50 year old men marrying 6 year old girls? Islam is supposed to be this great, global, timeless religion. Pffffft to that.

    kafirgirl

    August 23, 2008 at 12:50 am

  76. P.S. I guess some people embrace the “it was tradition in those days” argument, because you’ve got sick fuckers like Ayatollah Khomeini. See Watercat’s post above. Waaaay above.

    kafirgirl

    August 23, 2008 at 12:55 am

  77. “I think it’s less embarrassment and more denial, denial, denial.”

    I concur. Of course, there are some Muslims who believe it was all appropriate and still applies today, but I think for most it is denial.

    Michael

    August 23, 2008 at 1:52 pm

  78. Actually, it may not be denial as much as not knowing what is actually in the texts. I’m not implying ignorance here, just a lack of actually reading the Quran/Hadith or relying solely on others for readings. I know I’ve pointed out passages before, such as the punishment of public whipping with NO compassion/mercy of those who have sex outside of marriage (note: this isn’t adultery), and the response was: that seems a bit harsh. So, a Muslim who didn’t know about something in the Quran thinks it is a bit harsh. Imagine that.

    Michael

    August 23, 2008 at 4:06 pm


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