KafirGirl

We read the Quran so you don’t have to.

7: The Wall Between Heaven and Hell (Part I — GTFO: Adam, Eve & Iblis get the boot)

with 53 comments

It took me a little while to get through chapter 7.  I’ve been a slacker, yes, but that’s not the only excuse reason.  Remember that guy who’s been a tumor on my brain since last Monday?  The I can see your aura guy I got stuck working with?  That guy.  He didn’t leave on Friday like my boss promised.  I’m stuck with him until tomorrow.  And guess what?  He’s getting weirder.

Today he asked to specifically use my green post-it pad, not the orange one, because green is a more open chakra.  No joke.  I lost my shit, and we had ourselves a little standoff.   I refused to give him the green pad because I’m an asshole, and he refused to take the orange post-it because he’s a retard.  He ended up winning because I got sick of him complaining about how my negative energy was blocking the creative flow between us.  Sigh.

The oddest part of the whole thing is that old homeboy is Jewish.  And not just I’m Jewish because my mom is Jewish Jewish.  He’s for real Jewish.  He had to leave work early on Friday to finish up some stuff at home since he can’t lift a finger on the Sabbath (God might turn him into a pig).

All the new age bullshit and temple talk has been leaving me drained.  After spending an entire day with this man, I want to go home, lie down on the couch, curl up into a fetal position and die.  It’s been like that for the past 2 weeks.

Our project is officially over tomorrow.  I’m taking Friday off to recuperate and celebrate.  Spoiler alert:  pajamas, couch, rum and Quran.  All damn day.  Whoo!  That’s how I roll, babies.  Anyway, enough about my wild party girl lifestyle.  Better get started with chapter 7.  There’s a ton to discuss, so let’s jump right in.

1. Alif Lam Mim Sad.

The chapter starts out with four mystery letters that only God knows the meaning to.  So why the fuck does he bother revealing them?  It’s like saying, “Hey I have a secret!” and then refusing to share it.  Only dicks make dick moves like that.  Just sayin’.  Then again, check these out:

3. Follow what has been revealed to you by your Lord, and do not follow any other lord apart from Him. Yet little do you care to remember.

10. We settled you on the earth, and provided means of livelihood for you in it; but little are the thanks you give.

This cry baby side of God is really unflattering.  Especially since he’s always calling out the Jews for doing the same damn thing.  Boo fucking hoo.  I’m God.  You guys don’t appreciate me.  You guys don’t even remember me, even though I’m the awesomest god ever. I’m also the only-est god ever, and don’t you bitches forget it.  Or else.

11. Verily We created you and gave you form and shape, and ordered the angels to bow before Adam in homage; and they all bowed but Iblis who was not among those who bowed.

The Adam & Eve story, redux.  This time, it’s from a slightly different angle.  For starters, Iblis is an angel in this version (or is he?).  Plus God asks a few more questions:

12. “What prevented you” (said God), “from bowing (before Adam) at My bidding?” “I am better than him,” said he. “You created me from fire, and him from clay.”

The fuck?  Shouldn’t God know this?  In fact, didn’t God plan this?  He made the universe and predestined everything.  So why is he acting surprised when the angel(?) won’t bow down to Adam?  Also, what the hell, God just said Iblis was the only angel who didn’t bow down, so he’s an angel made out of fire? Jinns are made out of fire; angels are made out of light.  A mistake?  In the Holy Quran?  Blasphemy! Anyway, we covered the whole angel / jinn thing in chapter 4, so I’ll let it go.

…no I won’t.  This is so fucking stupid.  If he’s a jinn, like some of the Muslim commenters from chapter 4 said, what’s he doing hanging out with the angels?  Where are all the other jinns?  How come they didn’t refuse to bow, too?  And why the fuck can’t God keep his story straight?

13. So God said: “Descend. You have no right to be insolent here. Go, and away; you are one of the damned.”

You are one of the damned. Double you.  Tee.  Eff?  Isn’t Iblis the first of the damned, then?  Who was damned before him?  Was anyone even around to be damned?  Was there even a hell?  Plus, I think God went about it all wrong.  If I was God, and I was a selfish prick who couldn’t handle a disobedient subordinate, I would *poof* him out of existence.  Game over, Iblis, thanks for playing.  Now the rest of you bow to Adam (even thought it’s kind of like you’re worshipping him and that’s pretty weird), or else you’re going to get *poofed* too.  Bet every one of those fuckers would have bowed down then.

14. “Grant me respite,” said he, “till the raising of the dead.”
15. And God said: “You have the respite.”

OK, so Iblis says, “Let me hang out until Judgement Day,” and God says, “….OK.”  The hell?  It’s that easy to talk God into just letting you get away with something for a few centuries?  I’ll keep that in mind if I die and then wake up in a more tropical location.

Here’s something that really bothers me:  why does God let Iblis get away with it?  Whhhhy??  What’s the character’s motivation?  Where’s the drama, the tension, the plot twist?  God doesn’t explain.  You know, if this entire thing wasn’t totally plagiarized from older scriptures, Mohammed would never have found a publisher.  Moving along.

16. “Since You led me into error,” said Iblis, “I shall lie in wait for them along Your straight path.
17. And I shall come upon them from the front and behind, right and left; and You will not find among them many who would give thanks.”

Iblis has a plan that apparently God was unaware of.  Even though he, you know, predestined the whole fucking thing.  Still, snap, Iblis has got a point, ya’ll.  If God did predestine this entire episode, which he says he did, then it was his fault that Iblis refused to bow to Adam.  God led Iblis into error on purpose, and then he let walk away.  Very convenient.  And as Iblis leaves, he reveals that he’s going to prey on “them.”  Um, them who?  So far Adam is the only person created, right?  So who the fuck is old Iblis rattling on about?  Is he talking about jinns?  But isn’t Iblis a jinn himself?  So how does that work?  God explains everything:

18. “Begone,” said (God), “contemptible and rejected! As for those who follow you, I shall fill up Hell with all of you.

Ha!  I’m just kidding.  God doesn’t explain a fucking thing.  That would make too much sense.  Instead he tells Iblis to get the fuck out, and Iblis goes to lead “them” astray, even though “them” don’t really exists yet.

19. And you, O Adam, and your spouse, live in the Garden and eat your fill wheresoever you like, but do not approach this tree, or you will become iniquitous.”

Now Adam has a spouse?  Where was she before when everyone had to bow down to Adam?  I guess it would have ruined the dramatic effect to have two people present.  “Bow down, angels, this is the first human ever!  …and also the second.”  Or maybe this nameless spouse (I shall call her Eve) was *poofed* into existence sometime after Iblis left.  Again, God doesn’t explain.  I’m sure some apologists out there tackle that issue, but fuck those guys.  If the Quran is infallible and perfect, then surely it has all the answers.  (Wink, nudge.)

God tells Adam and his no-name spouse that they shouldn’t eat from a certain tree or else they’ll become wicked.  So.  Stupid.  No shit they’re going to eat from it.  Why the fuck would God put it there if he didn’t want them to be tempted by it?  And, duh, didn’t he predestine this whole thing?  (Yes, “predestine” is an actual word.  I looked it up.  Bitches.)

20. But Satan suggested (evil) to them, in order to reveal their hidden parts of which they were not aware (till then), and said: “Your Lord has forbidden you (to go near) this tree that you may not become angels or immortal.”

They weren’t aware of their “hidden parts” until after they eat from the tree.  Bullshit.  They’re married.  The only reason people in the Quran get married is so it’s OK for them to have sex.  Is God trying to tell us that Adam and Eve are married and living in a garden together…but they can’t have sex since they don’t even realize they have genitals?  Buh?  What the hell else were they doing in that garden if not fucking?  It’s not exactly like they had cable or something.

21. Then he said to them on oath: “I am your sincere friend;”
22. And led them (to the tree) by deceit. When they tasted (the fruit) of the tree their disgrace became exposed to them; and they patched the leaves of the Garden to hide it. And the Lord said to them: “Did I not forbid you this tree? And I told you that Satan was your open enemy.

The fuck?  They’re embarrassed to be seen butt ass nekkid?  By who?  They’re a married couple — who cares if they see each other nekkid?  There’s nobody else around, except God, right?  Are they covering themselves up with leaves so God won’t see them nekkid?  Seriously? Dudes.  If God can’t see through a couple of leaves, he’s not as all-fucking-powerful as he keeps saying he is.  We win.

23. They said: “O our Lord, we have wronged ourselves. If You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we shall certainly be lost.”
24. “Go,” said God, “one the antagonist of the other, and live on the earth for a time ordained, and fend for yourselves.

Ooooh whee!  Go, one the antagonist of the other. Men and women are enemies.  Oooooh wee!  And all this time I thought my husband, Kafir Boy, was my best friend, my life partner.  And God says he’s my enemy.  Shit.  I’m gonna punch that fucker in the face the next time I see him.  No enemy of mine is going to marry me and get away with it!  Hey Quran, your Mohammed is showing.  (More on Mo’s woman-hating ways coming up soon!)

25. You will live there, and there will you die,” He said, “and be raised from there (On the Day of Doom).”

According to Islam, a person’s soul hangs out in the grave until Judgement Day, whenever that is.  If you’re hell-bound, it’s an excruciating wait.  If you’re headed to heaven, though, it’s no big deal.  Kind of ruins the surprise ending, but whatever, this is God’s idea, not mine.

There are two exceptions to that rule:  those who die fighting for God or against God.  Those guys don’t have to wait around for Judgement Day.  They immediately go to either heaven or hell — I’ll let you guess who goes where.  If you’re still wondering why people are blowing themselves up in the name of God, you obviously haven’t been paying attention.

So that’s it.  That’s how Iblis, Adam & old whatshername get evicted.  And God’s been an absentee landlord ever since.  Huzzah!  Don’t get too comfortable with this version, though.  I’m sure this same story will come up again several times since the Quran is basically the same 5 stories repeated over and over again.  Who knows?  Maybe next time it’ll be totally different.  Maybe next time Mrs. Adam will actually have a name!

Coming up next:  prophets that weren’t in the Bible.  Exciting!  Stay tuned!


Other stuff from chapter 7 that’s worth sharing
(but didn’t really fit anywhere in the thematic outline I so dorkishly put together).

27. We have made the devils the friends of those who do not believe

God purposely throws people at the devil, because…actually, I don’t really know why the fuck he does it.  He just does.  What a dick.

28. Who say when they commit shameful acts: “Our ancestors used to do so, and God has enjoined us to do the same.” Say to them: “God never enjoins a conduct that is shameful. You impute such lies to God as you do not know.”

God never enjoins a conduct that is shameful, huh?  I can give you 3 examples off the to of my head:

  • God told Mohammed it was OK for him to marry a 6 year old.  And to have sex with her when she turned 9.
  • God gave instructions on how a man should beat his wife.  (Hard, but not too hard.)
  • God said it’s a-OK to own slaves and concubines, and urges — but does not command — you to be nice to them.

That’s right.  God gave the thumbs up to pedophilia, domestic abuse and slavery.  His standards of “shameful” are clearly way the fuck different than mine.

179. Many of the jinns and human beings have We destined for Hell, who possess hearts but do not feel, have eyes but do not see, have ears but do not hear, like cattle, even worse than them. They are people unconcerned.

Those who don’t believe in God just aren’t using common sense.  They’re like cattle.  Hell-oh, irony!

182. We shall punish those who deny Our revelations slowly in a way that they will not know.
183. I will just give them respite. My plan is certainly invincible.
184. Have they not bethought themselves their companion is not mad? He is only a plain admonisher.
185. Have they not contemplated the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and everything created by God, (to educe) that perhaps their own term is drawing to a close? In what lore after this would they then believe?
186. Whosoever God allows to go astray has none to show him the way, for He leaves them to wander perplexed in their wickedness.

God refers to himself as We and Our, then switches to I and My in the next verse.  And then God and He.  What.  The.  Fuck?

Here’s my favorite:

203. And when you do not bring a (Qur’anic) verse to them, they say: “Why don’t you make one up?” Say: “I follow only what my Lord reveals to me.” These (revelations) are an evident proof from your Lord, and a guidance and grace for those who believe.

People, please.  Mohammed can’t just make up these verses all willy-nilly.  He can’t reveal them until God’s ready.  He sends down an angel who tells Mohammed to tell the people what God told him.  It really is that simple.  Why if Mohammed just made shit up, he’d be a liar and a false prophet.  And there’s no way God would allow that.  Right?  Right??

Written by kafirgirl

July 31, 2008 at 12:22 am

Posted in Quran

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53 Responses

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  1. Aargh. Maybe it’s the crappy run I just got back from a bit ago (they’re tarring/fixing streets, here in hot, hot Tucson, and the end result is that everything reeks of tar, and it’s giving me a headache. AND there’s little tarry rocks stuck to my shows), but reading this really, really made me depressed.

    I’m trying to decide which is the uglier belief, the more totally evil: the idea that God preordains that people will turn against him — he literally turns their hearts against them, and sends them to Hell for it! OR the pure body hatred this chapter shows. I had a blog post about that a bit ago –body hatred, that is, as part of the Judeo-Christian heritage (I should’ve just said Abrahamic heritage and been done with it). Oh nos! They saw their genitals, and those genitals are their “disgrace”! It’s such an ugly, ugly idea, making people hate themselves that way. AND THIS: Saying right out that man and woman shall be enemies. How hateful, how nasty, how small minded.

    Sigh. I really wish I could get a cultural superiority thing goin’ on and say that at least Christian culture didn’t do this shit. But, yeah. FUCK.

    I think I’m going to go find a Carl Sagan video on Youtube, something from Cosmos, and recharge now. :)

    Gregory

    July 31, 2008 at 1:18 am

  2. Just as fucked up as the Bible – this is why I won’t send my kids to church or mosque or pentagrams at the beach. It’s all guilt trips and hypocrisy.

    Let us know if the rum improves the reading!

    Katy

    July 31, 2008 at 1:43 am

  3. Great post. You even started it out with two KORANCRONYMS.

    The only way I can make sense [sic] of this crap is to reduce it into sorta cliff notes, so these come up as shorthand for longer phrases. eg,

    NAM (nobody appreciates me) Use for:
    2:51-2 Yet, remember, as We communed with Moses for forty nights you took the calf in his absence (and worshiped it), and you did wrong. Even so, We pardoned you that you may be grateful.
    7:3 Yet little do you care to remember.
    7:10 We settled you on the earth, and provided means of livelihood for you in it; but little are the thanks you give.

    IKE (I know everything)
    2:33 I know the unknown of the heavens and the earth, and I know what you disclose and know what you hide
    2;181, God hears all and knows everything. Also 2:227, 2:265, …
    5:54 God is infinite and all-knowing.
    8:10 surely God is All-mighty, All-wise.
    8:41, 8;42, 8:43 etc etc

    WIFL (I do Whatever I Feel Like)
    3:13 for God reinforces with His help whomsoever He will.
    5:40 He punishes whom He will, and pardons whom He please, for God has the power over all things.
    7:128 “God does whatever he wants.”

    IKYA (I’ll Kick Your Ass)
    2: 41 And believe in what I have sent down which verifies what is already with you; and do not be the first to deny it, nor part with it for little gain; and beware of Me.
    3:56 Those who are infidels will surely receive severe punishment both in this world and the next; and none will they have to help (or save) them.

    watercat

    July 31, 2008 at 2:18 am

  4. I was surprised to learn in 143, that Mt Sinai had crumbled to dust! We better tell wikipedia.

    180 is a good one to remember: “and leave those alone who act profanely towards His names:” lol!

    Adam and whatshername: are clothes a metaphor, and if so for what? If their hidden parts are literally body bits, it’s asinine to say they were not aware of them. Especially Adam’s. If you read it as meaning some hidden aspect of their nature, related to immortality, wisdom, shit like that, it’s sensible to say “their disgrace became exposed to them”; but then what’s up with fig leaves to cover themselves? I think of sewing those tiny little fuckers together, sitting under a PALM tree, and I have to assume the author was just a moron. My best guess: an old legend (Adapa?) from body-accepting Mesopotamians used clothes as a metaphor, but horny old perverts twisted it around to be about the dirty nasty. Mo just kept all the stupid parts.

    To me, it’s just not obvious that Iblis and Satan are the same guy. I’ve tried to track this one down, but….. (?)

    watercat

    July 31, 2008 at 3:28 am

  5. Haha I love all the predestination bullshit that both Christianity and Islam throw at you. Whenever something bad happens, they say “It’s part of God’s plan” or something similar. However, when they’re trying to convert you they say stuff like “Obey my fairy tale book or be DAMNED”. But wouldn’t God have planned for me not to believe and therefore only created me so he could send me to Hell? That God fellow is a wacky character.

    Scott

    July 31, 2008 at 3:40 am

  6. Yeah, God sounded better EVEN in “STAR TREK 4,” when he tried to steal the enterprise but Kirk saw through it (Spock was initially conned if u recall).

    jasmine

    July 31, 2008 at 4:40 am

  7. Hello,

    Just some comments:

    – I noticed that there is no serpent here. The bible does not identify the serpent as the devil, so I always think it is peculiar that people assume that both are one and the same. Mo, for example, does that here in the Qu’ran. Perhaps by the 7th century that correlation was already made and pervalent, and Mo decided to cut to the chase and axe the serpent from the story?

    – And you might want to give an applause for Mo, because he did include an improvement in the story: here the devil deceits BOTH of them, and not only the nameless-woman. I was surprised that he did not put the blame solely on the woman, for this would have been a perfect excuse for the treatment they get (as inferred in other religions).

    The following comments apply to the Bible, too (where relevant):

    – Why has god put that damm tree in the garden? It is as if you put a child in a room with a big, red button that you know is wired to a bomb.

    – If the tree makes men aware of things (wow, I’m naked! And what is that thing hanging down there?), I would say that men’s original intellectual level is that of blatant stupidity (or maybe par to that of an animal?). How then does god expect men to understand and follow his instructions to not touch the damm tree?

    – After evicting men from the garden of eden, god puts an angel with a flamming sword at the entrance who will stand there to bar entrance forever. Why didn’t he think of posting an angel next to the tree to guard it from all beings? Once the kid has drown in the well…

    – If god put an angel to bar entrance, it means that there is an entrance that can be reached by anyone. Why religious people always talk about finding Noah’s Ark to prove the bible and never mention finding this entrance. I guess finding an eternal angel with a flaming sword near an orchard would be easier to find that the rotting and / or petrified remains of a centuries old ship awash on a mountain.

    – Then again, what happened to the garden during the flood? Was it washed away? Did the angel found himself suddenly unemployed? Did his flamming sword went out with all that water?

    Neither the Bible, or the Qu’ran, have answers to these interesting questions.

    Brg

    brg

    July 31, 2008 at 5:09 am

  8. 1.”Now Adam has a spouse? Where was she before when everyone had to bow down to Adam?”-Allah’s misogyny. Adam is worthy of prostration by angels. Eve isnt worthy of prostration by the angels.

    2.”16. “Since You led me into error,” said Iblis, “I shall lie in wait for them along Your straight path.
    17. And I shall come upon them from the front and behind, right and left; and You will not find among them many who would give thanks.”

    (a)Iblis accuses Allah of misleading him. And Allah doesnt deny this accusation.
    (b) Here Iblis says he will mislead those on straight path (i.e.muslims)cf verses 15:39-40; 38:82-83 where Iblis says that he will MISLEAD ALL EXCEPT ALLAH’S PIOUS SERRVANTS(MUSLIMS) with Allah’s grace.
    (c)15:39-40; 38:82-83 contradicts what Alalh says in Chapter 7.
    (d)One who is in straight path is to be misled. If someone is astray, then Iblis neednot waste time on him. So 15:39-40; 38:82-83 MEANS NON-MUSLIMS ARE ON STRAIGHT PATH AND IBLIS WILL TRY TO MISLEAD US AND BRING US INTO ISLAM(ALLAH’S TRAP)
    (e) M/sALLAH AND IBLIS-PARTNERS IN EVIL

    Anand

    July 31, 2008 at 5:34 am

  9. Anand, nice logic that in d!

    I might add that if “38:82-83 where Iblis says that he will MISLEAD ALL EXCEPT ALLAH’S PIOUS SERRVANTS(MUSLIMS) with Allah’s grace” is true, how come that Mo was misled by Iblis to deliver the Satanic Verses? Wasn’t he the most pious servant of Allah?

    And regarding “10. We settled you on the earth, and provided means of livelihood for you in it; but little are the thanks you give.” Say WHAT god? What about all the sacrifices made by jews at YOUR temple during the centuries previous to delivering the Qu’ran to Mo? What about all the prayers and graces said by christians to YOU during that same span of time?

    Brg

    brg

    July 31, 2008 at 5:45 am

  10. @Brg
    10,000% right.

    And also dont forget the prayers that hindus were saying since the Vedic age.

    This Quran must be the worst book ever written.

    Anand

    July 31, 2008 at 5:59 am

  11. Gregory, that sucks. Sorry it got you all depressed. If it makes you feel any better, I’ve learned that there is no concept of original sin in Islam. So yeah. They’re all dumb. Hope you’re feeling better!

    Katy, will do! I’m pretty sure the rum couldn’t make it worse.

    Watercat, Korancronyms? Brilliant. As for Satan and Iblis, what is it that you find so different about them? It might just be that I grew up thinking Iblis is Satan so I’m not seeing it. To me, t’s the same general idea but with Mohammed’s special twist.

    Scott, it’s almost like the predestination thing is an afterthought. Like they said God is omnipotent, and then realized, oh shit, that requires knowledge of literally everything. He’s, uh, he’s predestined everything. Yeah. That’s the ticket.

    brg, I actually gave Mo his props for that whole Adam being tempted thing back in the jinn discussion. That’s all he’s getting from me! I’ve never heard this angel with the flaming sword thing before. Is that a Christianity thing? I’ll have to see if that’s in the Quran. So far, nothing, but you never know.

    To your other point, God is one selfish, ungrateful son of a bitch, right? Suddenly all those other sacrifices don’t count? How many does it take to make God shut the fuck up?

    Anand, I don’t think the hindus were praying to this same God, were they? If they’re idolaters, their worship doesn’t count. Great point on Allah and Iblis being partners, though. It’s so fucking convoluted, I can’t see how they’d actually be enemies. Unless God means “enemies” like man and woman, in which case, he has a lot more ‘splaining to do.

    kafirgirl

    July 31, 2008 at 8:08 am

  12. “I’m gonna punch that fucker in the face the next time I see him. No enemy of mine is going to marry me and get away with it!” GOLD!!

    my wishes to the kafir boy, if he still hasn’t been punched.

    You know what, someone should have coached God with some grammar, IMO. And a list of things he has already said. Fuck. It’s like reading the same story with different ending each time.

    @Anand, Hindus don’t count. Probably because Mo never saw a Hindu..

    KG, I think I am going to start writing a book starting today and say that God told me this in my dream. Maybe I will become a billionaire soon..

    CD

    July 31, 2008 at 9:52 am

  13. “Anand, I don’t think the hindus were praying to this same God, were they? If they’re idolaters, their worship doesn’t count”

    Idolatry is a post-puranic development around 2000BC. Before Ramayana and Mahabharata were written, hindus were strict montheists without idol worship. The Vedas and Upanishads are strict montheistic books. In Sirr-i-Akbar(Great Secret), Dara Shikoh Aurangzeb’s elder brother opined taht Vedic literature is the fountainhead of Tawheed.

    anand

    July 31, 2008 at 10:22 am

  14. In the pre-biblical world (china and america too) the snake was a symbol of wisdom, and the tree a symbol of nurturance, and/or the Earth Mother, both of whom these guys would see as their enemies.

    The Sumerian version has Adapa in a garden, serving a god who does give him knowledge but tells him not to eat stuff. God’s enemy Tammuz offers him the immortality-bestowing food of the gods, but he refuses to eat. In this one, they didn’t need a snake to give wisdom.

    In later centuries, the Gnostics valued knowledge (high five!) and in their versions, God was the evil one, and the snake was Christ.

    None of these versions mention sex or nakedness.

    In both the bible and koran, the snake/knowledge-bearer/satan just suddenly turns up with no introduction. In 7:11-18 he’s talking about Iblis, then in 19 he changes the subject to A&E, and only after that does he mention satan. Same thing in 2:34-6. My impression is that Iblis is an angel and satan is someone else. (??)

    **The flaming sword is in Genesis 3:24.

    watercat

    July 31, 2008 at 10:26 am

  15. @watercat.
    Interesting insights.

    @Kafirgirl,
    How do u highlight/italicise words/put smiley in posts?

    anand

    July 31, 2008 at 10:32 am

  16. Hey Anand, do you run a blog of your own, can you get in touch with me through mail – anotherkafir@yahoo.in

    Another Kafir

    July 31, 2008 at 10:49 am

  17. Anand, really interesting. I had no idea hinduism was a monotheistic religion at one point. You can manipulate the text using html. P.S. if you don’t have a blog, you really should start one.

    Watercat, it’s even more complicated than that when you take into consideration that nobody really even knows whether Iblis is a jinn or an angel, and the Quran seems to say he’s both. Fucked up.

    kafirgirl

    July 31, 2008 at 11:01 am

  18. @CD – “Maybe I will become a billionaire soon”

    It doesn’t work like that. You either need to be a 2000 year old magician, a manky 400 year old poet or some guy who thinks we’re descended from aliens. Being alive is going to count against you as well. But if you’re going to try it, the key is in contradicting yourself numerous times and making people feel guilty about thinking about sex and bacon sandwiches.

    Actually, that would be a good way to screw with human nature. Make sure that in your new religion god told you that it’s a sin to own a car and to eat bread. And that scientologists are infidels and pastafarians like their shopping done for them on a Friday. That way, food and petrol prices will go down, my weekend will start earlier and I won’t get stuck in as many traffic jams.

    @Kafirgirl – I love this site. Forgot to mention that in my LOL(at)Muslims post. All religions are for people who can’t think for themselves (except for Catholicism which is for people who can’t think for themselves and paedophiles who like dressing up as priests) and it is fantastic to read someone who has actually stopped to think about what a load of bull the religious texts are. As one of my heroes once said, the whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence, from Jerusalem, of a lunatic asylum. It’s a constant source of amazement and depression for me that so many people believe this crap. A couple of years ago a friends son announced he was becoming a muslim after 21 years of growing up with no religious influences. He prays 5 times a day, makes his girlfriend wear a hijab, drinks and owns a dog. “I like this bit, but I don’t want to do this bit. Allah won’t mind.”

    Stetho

    July 31, 2008 at 11:34 am

  19. “My impression is that Iblis is an angel and satan is someone else. ”

    So it’s an evil tag team? Unless the two have a conversation with each other, I’d guess not. Unless, there is some rule that Angels and Jinns can’t /won’t talk to the other.

    BTW, there is no concept of an evil angel or hell in the OT, that wonderfulness came with Jesus and the NT.

    GAD

    July 31, 2008 at 11:43 am

  20. Stetho, ain’t the the fucking truth? I love how people like my family scoff at the “backwards” Arabs for all the stupid religious shit they do. Now that I”m actually reading the book, I realize that the Arabs are basically following the Quran to a t. My parents are practically infidels in comparison. And I’m sure they have absolutely no idea.

    The dog bit fucking killed me. I’ve always been an animal lover, and my parents wouldn’t allow us to have a dog. Their mere presence makes the house unclean for prayer. I kinda wondered if it’s because many dogs practically worship their owners. Maybe God is jealous?

    kafirgirl

    July 31, 2008 at 11:46 am

  21. [b]@Kafirgirl[/b]
    Thank u for the words of encouragement. I will start a blog of my own.
    @Another Kafir
    Sure. I will mail u.

    anand

    July 31, 2008 at 11:59 am

  22. @kafirgirl: yeah, Sagan did the trick. :) Good ol’ Carl.

    @anand: make sure you let us all know what the URL is. You can count me in as someone who would be interested in stopping by :).

    Gregory

    July 31, 2008 at 12:13 pm

  23. “nobody really even knows whether Iblis is a jinn or an angel, and the Quran seems to say he’s both. Fucked up.”

    There u hit the bull’s eye. Islam in trouble. iBLIS is a Jinn as per Quran 18:50. That doesnt solve the problem as the comamnd is for angels. Ibn Kathir then becomes the next Prophet after Allah and receives supplementary revealation from allah;

    “Iblis used to do what the angels did and resembled them in their devotion and worship, so he was included when they were addressed, but he disobeyed and went against what he was told to do. “.

    That is Iblis pretended to be an angel. So, Ibn Kathir had to invent facts not mentioned in Quran to explain this.
    http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=18&tid=30415

    anand

    July 31, 2008 at 12:55 pm

  24. How wud muslims like if democracies like US/Europe/ India try them like Allah tried Iblis? No show cause notice. No adequate time to prepare defence. No lawyer facility allowed. Allah’s justice delivery/trial procedures far inferior to what v have in democratic countries.

    anand

    July 31, 2008 at 1:05 pm

  25. “I’m gonna punch that fucker in the face the next time I see him. No enemy of mine is going to marry me and get away with it!” GOLD!!

    my wishes to the kafir boy, if he still hasn’t been punched.

    Yeah, I was totally going to punch him, but somehow ended up making out with him. He’s obviously using Iblis to con me into liking him. I see no other explanation for it.

    P.S. you write your book. Then I’ll start another blog where I read it from cover to cover and have hernias about it.

    P.P.S. There no hell in the Old Testament? Wow, thanks a fucking lot, Jesus, you douchetard.

    kafirgirl

    July 31, 2008 at 1:05 pm

  26. Ibn Kathir then becomes the next Prophet after Allah and receives supplementary revealation from allah;

    ..and then Kafirgirl becomes the next Prophet, and receives the final and ultimate revelation:

    (x) And God said “Yo, peeps! Wuz just fucking with ya! PWND! Lulz! “

    watercat

    July 31, 2008 at 1:19 pm

  27. “..(x) And God said “Yo, peeps! Wuz just fucking with ya! PWND! Lulz! “”

    Lol.

    anand

    July 31, 2008 at 1:42 pm

  28. I’m kind of on Iblis’ side (and not just because God is coming off as creation’s biggest douche): he’s an angel, or some kind of nin-djinnish entity who’s been flying around heaven keeping God company since he created light. All the stuff that came after (Eddie Izzard’s “toasters and showers and Burundi” comes to mind), the angels were like, “hey, nice one Big G.” And then he makes man. And then he tells the angels to bow to man.

    I was going to say this is like when your parents have a baby and seem to like him more, but God flat-out admits as much. It’s more like God was bored, as he often is, and due to some empty-nest issues he created a Chia Pet. God told Iblis to worship said Chia Pet.

    Iblis is an angel. He’s several thousand years old and is being told he’s worth less than New Coke. No wonder Iblis gave God the double bird.

    Sarah Smallwood

    July 31, 2008 at 1:52 pm

  29. If you want to compare how the Mayans believed the world was made, you can find the text here: http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Central_america/popol_vuh.htm

    It is funny how different people came to the same similar myth (however, the Popol Vuh is better written, has a plot, has extensive explanations, is coherent, etc. It would make a better “true” book only for that.

    Some bits from this text:

    – This is the account of how all was in suspense, all calm, in silence; all motionless, still, and the expanse of the sky was empty.

    This is the first account, the first narrative. There was neither man, nor animal, birds, fishes, crabs, trees, stones, caves, ravines, grasses, nor forests; there was only the sky.

    The surface of the earth had not appeared. There was only the calm sea and the great expanse of the sky.
    .
    .
    .

    – Thus let it be done! Let the emptiness be filled! Let the water recede and make a void, let the earth appear and become solid; let it be done. Thus they spoke. Let there be light, let there be dawn in the sky and on the earth! There shall be neither glory nor grandeur in our creation and formation until the human being is made, man is formed. So they spoke.
    .
    .
    .

    – Then they made the small wild animals, the guardians of the woods, the spirits of the mountains, the deer, the birds, pumas, jaguars, serpents, snakes, vipers, guardians of the thickets.

    And the Forefathers asked: “Shall there be only silence and calm under the trees, under the vines? It is well that hereafter there be someone to guard them.”

    Brg

    brg

    July 31, 2008 at 2:32 pm

  30. KG,

    I have nothing insightful to add, but I’ve been lurking here, reading your blog since you got it started. (PZ Myers linked to you at some point, and so I’m glad he did.)

    My wife has taken a similar approach with the Bible: know thine enemy, better than he knows himself. What the occasional argument with a True Believer reminds me is that the human mind has a nearly limitless capacity for cognitive dissonance.

    We really enjoy your writing. Keep it up!

    ogghead

    July 31, 2008 at 3:49 pm

  31. Watercat, I’d be a terrible prophet. I’d tell people to worship nothing, eat whatever they want, wear whatever they want, and I would strongly encourage pre-marital sex (condoms would grow on trees).

    Sarah, I’m with you. I can at least see where Iblis is coming from. God? Can’t relate to him one fucking bit.

    Brg, very interesting. It’s funny to me because it just goes to show the microwave mentality of man. Everything ha to happen fast. Now now now. None of that millions of years B.S. The world was made like *poof*

    ogghead, thanks so much. I’m really glad you and your wife are enjoying it so far. You’re absolutely right — the more interaction I have with believers, the more I think people are really fucking great at deluding themselves. Yiish.

    kafirgirl

    July 31, 2008 at 4:07 pm

  32. @Stetho

    “You either need to be a 2000 year old magician, a manky 400 year old poet or some guy who thinks we’re descended from aliens.” – someone already tried these. :( i will have to think of a diff way to fuck people over again.

    KG.. waiting for your next post tomorrow.. when you are drunk in ur pajamas on ur couch with Rum & Quran.

    CD

    July 31, 2008 at 4:32 pm

  33. “Iblis is an angel. He’s several thousand years old and is being told he’s worth less than New Coke. No wonder Iblis gave God the double bird.”

    This was a brilliant bit of writing Sarah! HAhahahahahaha…

    The community on this blog is AWESOME.

    Iblis gave God the double bird. HAH!

    Steve

    July 31, 2008 at 4:42 pm

  34. Word, Steve. I was expecting a lot of pissed off Muslims. And somehow I ended up with a bunch of people who are smart, funny and waaaaay more knowledgeable than me. I’m as happy as a pig in shit.

    kafirgirl

    July 31, 2008 at 5:08 pm

  35. And somehow I ended up with a bunch of people who are smart, funny and waaaaay more knowledgeable than me. I’m as happy as a pig in shit.
    Boy – this is a group to go camping with! A lot of talent and a lot of spunk. We already have rum and New Coke accounted for. Throw in a camp-fire and let the evening get started! KafirGirl and all you folks rock!

    How about we re-name KafirGirl’s Chakra-dude “Iblis” or would that be too hurtful to Satan?

    Rahul

    July 31, 2008 at 8:01 pm

  36. Kafirgirl and others — I seem to recall Joseph Campbell talking about a Persian myth that was a variant of the Quranic account of Iblis/Satan’s fall. It went something like this:

    God told the angels to bow before Adam. Satan said no. God demanded an explanation. Satan’s reply was that he loved God, and could only follow God’s commandments, and God had said to have no others before Him.

    God kicks his ass out of Heaven.

    Campbell noted that it was basically an estranged lovers story. He forgot to mention it was with an estranged lovers story with one of the lovers being a dick.

    I think that story is why I’ve always felt like Satan was the good guy, in any of the versions.

    Gregory

    August 1, 2008 at 3:44 am

  37. ” I kinda wondered if it’s because many dogs practically worship their owners. Maybe God is jealous? ”

    This one sentence … I could easily hold Eternity in the palm of my trembling hand … Kafir Girl …. for that one look in Ur eyes , try not to look at the sun, it may well drop into a chasm, embarrassed that it couldn’t quite hold that blazing gaze …

    Anubis

    August 1, 2008 at 6:19 am

  38. God isn’t jealous, just terribly insecure, rightfully so …

    Anubis

    August 1, 2008 at 6:21 am

  39. “God told the angels to bow before Adam. Satan said no. God demanded an explanation. Satan’s reply was that he loved God, and could only follow God’s commandments, and God had said to have no others before Him.”

    Mo plagiarised it with some. But then he had second thoughts “how angel can disobey God”? Therefore, after giving the impression in chapters 2,7,15 and 38 of Quran that Iblis is an angel, Mo CLARIFIED in 18:50 that Iblis is a Jinn. Since then this has remained a big problem for Islam/Muslims-“Is Iblis an angel or a jinn”?

    Anand

    August 1, 2008 at 6:36 am

  40. *Mo plagiarised it with some minor changes.

    Anand

    August 1, 2008 at 6:37 am

  41. @anand.. i dont want to divert this discussion on poor KG’s blog, but not only during the vedic age, but even now Hindus believe in One God. Just saying…

    CD/Shashi

    August 1, 2008 at 7:05 am

  42. Gregory, wow, see that makes way more sense to me. God would do such a thing because he’s a fucking asshole. And satan doesn’t really sound an megalomaniac. He’s just a jilted lover. I wonder what Christians and Muslims would have to say if you told them that story. They think Satan’s doing bad shit to them. Turns out he’s been moping around his apartment the whole time. Picking up the phone, dialing God’s number, and then hanging up before it rings. And then crying himself to sleep.

    CD / anand, please, go for it. No religion is safe on this blog.

    I should add that only some Hindus believe in one god nowadays. The vast majority are polytheists. And apparently there are even some atheist branches of Hinduism — Samkhaya and Mimamsa, I think. (Not quite sure how that works. Is that kind of like being a Jewish atheist?)

    Anyway, it’s kind of interesting that a lot of the other religions went from many gods to one god, and Hinduism went from one to many. They have some cute creation myths that would make for good bedtime stories, but it’s hard to imagine that anyone actually believes that shit.

    kafirgirl

    August 1, 2008 at 9:03 am

  43. @Kafirgirl/CD
    Along with creation myths, hinduism also contains this in the Vedas-Rig Veda the oldest text.

    “6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
    The Gods are later than this world’s production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
    7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
    Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.”
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10129.htm

    The above hymn is called Naasadiya Sukta.

    For someone who all along rigidly thought taht God created this world, these verses came as a rude shock.

    Hinduism may be termed as “henotheism”
    “Henotheism (Greek εἷς θεός heis theos “one god”) is a term coined by Max Müller, to mean devotion to a single primary god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities.”
    Hinduism progressed from monotheism to “inclusive monotheism admitting multiple deities as manifestations of a single being.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism

    But hinduism also contains atheistic schools of thought like Charvaka. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C4%81rv%C4%81ka
    So, even henotheism doesnt accurately define it.

    The funny thing is that even an atheist like me can call himself a “hindu atheist”. See Rama getting annoyed with Jabaali(a minister) for his atheist thoughts and haranguing him
    http://www.valmikiramayan.net/ayodhya/sarga109/ayodhya_109_frame.htm

    But inspite of all that hindus are comfortable with atheists .Somehow they learnt to tolerate them and accept them.

    Anand

    August 1, 2008 at 9:37 am

  44. Yes. Kinda being a Jewish atheist like the one whom u have given links in this blog.

    Hindu is actually a term given by Arabs to the ppl of the sub-continent. So, in a sense everyone from the sub-continent is a hindu. This word “hindu” doesnt occur anywhere in the Vedic/Puranic literature.

    Anand

    August 1, 2008 at 9:47 am

  45. Mimansa school is atheistic in the sense that it believes taht every action will have an effect(logically).So where does God come into the picture. But they believed in Vedic rituals.

    Most interesting thing in India is that at one point of time, India was predominantly atheistic-with Mimansa, Jains, Buddhists and Charvakas forming the bulk of the people.Then Adi Shankara came on the scene and engaged these schools in debate, won the debates and India became predominantly theistic,

    Anand

    August 1, 2008 at 9:53 am

  46. I think there are more than a couple distinct phases of progress of ‘Hinduism’. To start with it didn’t even have a name as Anand mentioned.
    The latest version that people ‘see’ today, is soooooo corrupt that if the sages who wrote the Vedas see them, they would completely disown the latest version. The one thing that still is present from the Vedic times is the lack of any Hindu ‘evangelists’.
    Again as Anand suggested, atheists did follow the Vedas but then again they were not persecuted. It’s a bit complicated and a loooooooooooong one to discuss how and why Hinduism became as it is now.
    Just for the record, i am a skeptical hindu. meaning, i believe in Vedic philosophy and its knowledge, but not in Hindutva as it’s being proposed currently by Hindu fanatics.

    CD/Shashi

    August 1, 2008 at 11:00 am

  47. Interesting. I kind of got the feeling that you guys were trying to somehow separate Hinduism from all the other religions, hold it to a higher standard.

    Not sure how I feel about that one.

    kafirgirl

    August 1, 2008 at 11:14 am

  48. yes and no. And i speak for myself. hinduism is as fucked up as the rest. no denying it. that’s the ‘no’ part. but the Vedic period is what I identify as scientifically and philosophically much advanced than anything I read/saw. that’s the ‘yes’ part. two mutually exclusive things.. i guess.

    Shashi

    August 1, 2008 at 12:00 pm

  49. “Interesting. I kind of got the feeling that you guys were trying to somehow separate Hinduism from all the other religions, hold it to a higher standard.

    Not sure how I feel about that one.”

    Not really. Hinduism neednot be held to a higher standard.But somehow, hindus were fortunate to have freethinkers- a long line of them starting from the sage who wrote the Rig Veda hymn I quoted above. Somehow the hindus never really persecuted freethinkers-Buddha, Nanak etc. The fact such a skeptical thought is there in Rig Veda about creation is quite interesting. But then where did Charvaka’s writings go? Intentionally destroyed? Lost? This atheistic thinker’s ideas which r available r those that have been refuted by theistic commentators.

    An old Sanskrit saying
    “If a logically sound proposition comes even from a boy or a parrot accept it/
    If a logically unsound proposition comes even from an elderly person or an authority like Sage shuka, reject it”

    Even Krishna says in Gita 18:63 to Arjuna
    ” Ponder deeply over what I revealed…then act as u think fit”

    So, logical thinking occupied a very important place in India. Then how come the hindus accepted a book like Manu Smriti around 500BCE? Was it forced on them the like Quran was forced on Arabia? I am inquiring in these areas.

    Anand

    August 1, 2008 at 12:09 pm

  50. “If a logically sound proposition comes even from a boy or a parrot accept it
    If a logically unsound proposition comes even from an elderly person or an authority like Sage shuka, reject it”

    It’s rare that I say this word, but I’ll put it out for this occassion: Amen. A fucking men.

    Really interesting stuff. How does a society go from valuing free thinking to this?

    kafirgirl

    August 1, 2008 at 12:16 pm

  51. The most damaging document that really destroyed the old school of though was the Manusmriti written somewhere around 500 BC.
    There are a lot of things like Sati, marriages within communities, not questioning anything elders say etc etc that could have been the effects of innumerable invasions over the centuries. cause and effect.

    maybe Anand should start writing a blog about this – “How does a society go from valuing free thinking to this?”.

    Shashi

    August 1, 2008 at 12:25 pm

  52. “How does a society go from valuing free thinking to this?”
    Somewhere they became dogmatic? Why? How? When?

    This is not all. From where society has declined is simply appalling. In the Upanishads, a boy goes to gurukul and introduces himself to the Guru “My name is Satyakama. I am the son of Jabala,a prostitute. Therefore, I am Satyakama Jabala. My father is unknown. Please enrol me and impart knowledge”.
    The GURU SAYS:”You have spoken the truth. This is the halmark of a Brahmin and not parentage. I will enrol you and teach you.”

    Imagine, a boy could keep his mother’s name and enrol in school. I think this gain became possible /heard of only after Independence in India.

    Anand

    August 1, 2008 at 12:27 pm

  53. Also, what the hell, God just said Iblis was the only angel who didn’t bow down, so he’s an angel made out of fire? Jinns are made out of fire; angels are made out of light.

    Maybe Iblis is made of firelight. :P

    They weren’t aware of their “hidden parts” until after they eat from the tree. Bullshit. They’re married. The only reason people in the Quran get married is so it’s OK for them to have sex.

    Not to mention that, when the faithful go to Paradise in their afterlife, they’re apparently going to be having lots of sex. If awareness of sexuality is linked with sin and the fall of man, then why is all that sex with the perpetual virgins in Heaven all right?

    The bible does not identify the serpent as the devil, so I always think it is peculiar that people assume that both are one and the same.

    According to most of what I’ve seen, the modern concept of Satan probably didn’t exist in Jewish thought at the time Genesis was written. It most likely came out of the dualistic Zoroastrianism of the Persians. I don’t know when Satan came to be associated with the snake of Genesis, but since Revelation refers to “that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,” it’s quite likely that the association was around by the first century AD/CE.

    Nathan

    August 2, 2008 at 2:52 pm


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